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Old 2nd July 2011, 17:10   #376
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
I am doing some research to replace my car in India (parents being the prime commuters), and hence the stress on safety, followed by back seat comfort.
Just to add a point, you should even consider the SX4. If only two adults are to travel at the back, they may love it just for the sheer ease of ingress/egress in a sedan.

About safety, I personally did have a BIG issue with it's A pillar design, especially when I imagined driving it in the hills.

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Originally Posted by mdsaab View Post
Poitive thanks for that very crisp fluidic review.
I think if one is looking to use it mainly in the city. Then it makes a sensible choice.
Thanks mate. I agree.

However, I suspect many will even take it for highway use, given it's high FE and that many people aren't as much into driving and things like steering feedback.

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Originally Posted by charthom View Post
@Poitive, nicely,crisply,honestly and professionally written brief review of the Fluidic.
Now you make me consider a career as an Auto-writer (just joking mate).
Somehow, I find many professional reviews a bit biased, but the writeups are maturing over time. TBhp official reviews take the cake for unbiased reviews.

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The Fluidic has its merits-but does it really have character?Like,say,the Vento and the Magnum?Apart from the Diesel factor and looks is it really tempting?
+1
Just my thoughts Charthom. Was thinking the same when I ended the drive - that it was simple, but devoid of character. At times, it is strange how simple and easy things don't appeal enough.

Last edited by Poitive : 2nd July 2011 at 17:20.
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Old 2nd July 2011, 19:42   #377
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

Took another test drive of Optra Magnum diesel on the same old TD car. This time I was making specific note of the torque etc at different rpms and in different gears. Unfortunately, my impressions remain unchanged.

It was very difficult for me to cross the speadbreakers in second gear. The engine used to shut off pretty much every time I tried it. And in rare cases when I did manage to cross them in second gear, the pick up immediately after crossing was just not good enough. When I say "not good enough", I mean not good enough for me to plonk down 11L for it. After driving Alto for so long, pulling power in lower gears is my main criteria for choosing a car as this is what I hate in Alto.

My mind is made up now. It's Vento diesel HL. Just one question though. Is the booking amount refundable in case I book it now and want to cancel it before the delivery? I mean, do the dealers return the amount easily or we have to run around for it?
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Old 2nd July 2011, 20:08   #378
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
My mind is made up now. It's Vento diesel HL. Just one question though. Is the booking amount refundable in case I book it now and want to cancel it before the delivery? I mean, do the dealers return the amount easily or we have to run around for it?
I think your main gripe against the Optra is the "not so good" low end torque. The Vento diesel is miles ahead in this department. Right from 1000 rpm till 1500 rpm, the torque goes on increasing & peaks @ 1500 rpm. I guess the max torque is maintained till 2500 rpm. This is the rpm band in which we mostly drive within the city & the Vento is very happy in that band. So I think it is Vento for you.

Recently when I took the TD of Fluidic Verna. I was told that the booking amount was Rs 100K & the Quotation clearly mentioned "In case of cancellation of booking Rs 10K will be charged as cancellation charges", which comes to a whopping 10%. I am not sure if the booking amount is fully refundable for Vento, but should be somewhat similar to the Verna
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Old 2nd July 2011, 21:14   #379
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
It was very difficult for me to cross the speadbreakers in second gear. The engine used to shut off pretty much every time I tried it. And in rare cases when I did manage to cross them in second gear, the pick up immediately after crossing was just not good enough.
Just curious, why do you want to cross the speed breakers in the second gear? Are you judging any of the car's characteristic by doing it?

I for one, cross a speed breaker in the chosen gear looking at the size of it. Unfortunately, Bangalore humps are so un-scientific that except for MUVs / SUVs, nothing can escape it in second gear. For the real curved, smooth humps, I drive my Swift in a second gear provided its not very tall.

I believe driving on a hump in 1st gear is better as the chances of scraping over it also is minimized. And yeah, the passenger(s) also don't get tossed up & down with this kinda driving. I usually resort to driving slow [2nd] to enter a bump and once the front brakes and over it, brake to zero & then slot to first gear, and move on. This has ensured I have very less under body scrapings on my car [just 3 or 4] in the last 2.5+ years.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 2nd July 2011 at 21:16.
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Old 2nd July 2011, 22:03   #380
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Just to add a point, you should even consider the SX4. If only two adults are to travel at the back, they may love it just for the sheer ease of ingress/egress in a sedan.

About safety, I personally did have a BIG issue with it's A pillar design, especially when I imagined driving it in the hills.
Thanks Poitive. Even though I like some of the new cars from Suzuki, I somehow does not feel very confident on the safety and build quality. Maybe itís just a perception .
That said, I like the way SX4 looks, and it has got good road presence.
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Old 2nd July 2011, 22:15   #381
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Just curious, why do you want to cross the speed breakers in the second gear? Are you judging any of the car's characteristic by doing it?

I for one, cross a speed breaker in the chosen gear looking at the size of it. Unfortunately, Bangalore humps are so un-scientific that except for MUVs / SUVs, nothing can escape it in second gear. For the real curved, smooth humps, I drive my Swift in a second gear provided its not very tall.

I believe driving on a hump in 1st gear is better as the chances of scraping over it also is minimized. And yeah, the passenger(s) also don't get tossed up & down with this kinda driving. I usually resort to driving slow [2nd] to enter a bump and once the front brakes and over it, brake to zero & then slot to first gear, and move on. This has ensured I have very less under body scrapings on my car [just 3 or 4] in the last 2.5+ years.
Now that you ask, I never actually thought about why I use second gear. A habit, I guess. I do use first gear but only when there are 3-4 humps together in a speed-breaker.

Are you saying that we should do it the other way around? Use first gear by default and use second only in rare cases? Shouldn't it depend on the car also?
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Old 3rd July 2011, 00:15   #382
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
Is the booking amount refundable in case I book it now and want to cancel it before the delivery? I mean, do the dealers return the amount easily or we have to run around for it?
I have taken TD of SX4/ Linea/ Optra/ Laura, all these guys told me the booking amount is fully refundable. On questioning, I was told, they have enough bookings, so even if there is a cancellation, they can manage to divert this booking to someone else by the time car actually arrives at their yard (moreover the booking is actually made in Sales guy's name, not the customer's). If this version is true, going by the interest in the new Verna, they should easily manage it (else you can do it by yourself).

In older times, I have my a friend of mine who sold his Yamaha RX100 booking to another guy that too for a premium of Rs.1500/- (a really good premium those days).
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Old 3rd July 2011, 00:42   #383
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
Are you saying that we should do it the other way around? Use first gear by default and use second only in rare cases? Shouldn't it depend on the car also?
I dont think we have any ground rules as to which gear should we try and drive over a bump, but its more of the driver preferences. Even I have experienced the engine stalling / knocking while on 2nd gear which means strain on the engine / clutch pumping to recover it etc which is not good for the car.

If I have an MUV or SUV for drive, I might use the second gear to cross it since the GC will be much better. But if the passenger comfort is more important, I will use the first gear.

I resort to my method of driving out of the hump on first gear because of the below factors

1. Chances of under scraping are high when we drive in second gear [higher speed means more bouncing while jumping over]

2. Comfort factor - slower speeds are possible in first gear means the car doesn't "jump" over but rather "glides" over

3. Chances of knocking / engine switching off at low speed / torque in second gear are higher because a min speed has to be maintained.
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Old 3rd July 2011, 12:19   #384
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

@bansal - driving over a speedbreaker according to me has two factors deciding the gear at which you do it

1. height of the bump
2. Momentum at which you cross it

This would determine the gear that you ideally should be in. I understand that @ bangalore usually the bumps are pretty high..which would mean you would nt drive over it with momentum.

Given that and as mentioned by swiftnfurious, it would not be wise to drive over it in second gear as you would not have enough momentum to do it. Which would mean, not even RPM (engine rev) to use second gear. This should be the reason for stalling.

I have driven over smaller bumps decelrating in the second gear and the vehicle does not stall.

Something to ponder?
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Old 3rd July 2011, 16:04   #385
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

I understand why @bansal prefers to have better driveability in 2nd gear. Bangalore roads have too many humps and potholes. On top of that, especially in the older areas of city there are too many cross roads and bus stops that block one half of road, where one has to frequently stop and move forward. Frequently shifting to 1st gear is irritating. Shifting to 1st gear is not as convenient as shifting to other forward gears, in terms of shifting effort. Also if you are not very slow, shifting to 1st results in more jerk.

To summarize, I too feel it is better to have a car that can crawl in 2nd gear, whether over hump or not. Most cars dont seem to do well in this aspect, except Etios, which I have not driven but GTO states in his review clearly about this. Optra's 2.0L engine should have decent torque even at low RPMs without turbo, the issue could be with bit taller 2nd gear, my guess.

Last edited by mohan41 : 3rd July 2011 at 16:06.
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Old 3rd July 2011, 16:37   #386
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

Have been resisting posting on this issue, but finally I succumb. Am trying to put together the posts already made in the last few pages on this to get a better perspective of "going over a hump" issue.

The Vento may work better for @Bansal's needs. But if one is willing to go through a phase of adapting to a slightly different driving style, the Optra may be very good too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
Took another test drive of Optra Magnum diesel on the same old TD car. This time I was making specific note of the torque etc at different rpms and in different gears. Unfortunately, my impressions remain unchanged.

It was very difficult for me to cross the speadbreakers in second gear. The engine used to shut off pretty much every time I tried it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Just curious, why do you want to cross the speed breakers in the second gear? Are you judging any of the car's characteristic by doing it?
===========
I believe driving on a hump in 1st gear is better as the chances of scraping over it also is minimized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
Now that you ask, I never actually thought about why I use second gear. A habit, I guess. I do use first gear but only when there are 3-4 humps together in a speed-breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
I dont think we have any ground rules as to which gear should we try and drive over a bump, but its more of the driver preferences. Even I have experienced the engine stalling / knocking while on 2nd gear which means strain on the engine / clutch pumping to recover it etc which is not good for the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohan41 View Post
Frequently shifting to 1st gear is irritating.
===============
To summarize, I too feel it is better to have a car that can crawl in 2nd gear, whether over hump or not.


Please take SLK's views into account as mentioned a few pages back. IMHO, they are valuable, to get a better perspective.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SLK View Post
That observation is not correct! - there is turbo lag, but its not bad.

The cars I drive on a very regular basis [as I own these] - 5 speed 800, Alto 1.1 Vxi, WagonR. CityZX, Ritz Vdi & latest addition the Optra Magnum.

Diesels have relatively long gears - and putting it to sub 1000rpm in a tall gear is not fair. You got to know the correct gear! and there is almost no lag, don't compare it with the 800cc, b'coz in terms of response in 2nd gear (after say a speedbreaker) it's better than my CityZX or WagonR, just because of short gearing compared to the others.

==========

Don't trust yourself after a short drive - it takes a few 100 or 1000 kms to get used to driving a diesel, No I'm not saying that the trick is to keep it in the power band i.e. 2000+. My Optra is new and I'm not pushing it hard, mostly driven in the sub 2000 rpm range, still no issues with any lag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
+1 to SLK's views.

@bansal98, I very much agree with SLK's views. Like the power delivery/band, even the gearing is different in cars. It is tall for the Optra. I doubt you would take the 800cc Alto above, say, 40-50kmph on second gear. In the Optra you could stretch it to 90kmph quite easily. (if I remember correctly, someone had tested it to 120kmph in second gear!)

Such cars often need to be driven in gear lower for the same speed.
Diesels often have taller gears. Also cars with a higher top end speed have taller gears (higher top end divided into 5 gears vs lower top end divided into 5 gears). Optra qualifies for both (especially when compared to the 800cc Alto).

Recommendation for anyone trying out a diesel for the first time in a car like the Optra:
Normally used gear - Gear to use in Optra Diesel
1 - 1
2 - 1
3 - 2
4 - 3
5 - 4
And use the 5th for the extra top end it has.
The above is not a precise formula or anything, but a rough guideline. This should take care of the going over humps too.

And we need not take the first as some very special gear. About the jerks one faces in it, it would take a bit of getting used to when to do it. I also often press the A pedal a bit when changing to a lower gear so that the engine and speeds match better (as per the gear) when the clutch is released.

Hope this helps

Edit: @Bansal, in case you haven't, you should TD the 'Fludic' Verna too. You may love how it drives.

Last edited by Poitive : 3rd July 2011 at 16:40.
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Old 3rd July 2011, 16:39   #387
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
I dont think we have any ground rules as to which gear should we try and drive over a bump, but its more of the driver preferences. Even I have experienced the engine stalling / knocking while on 2nd gear which means strain on the engine / clutch pumping to recover it etc which is not good for the car.

If I have an MUV or SUV for drive, I might use the second gear to cross it since the GC will be much better. But if the passenger comfort is more important, I will use the first gear.

I resort to my method of driving out of the hump on first gear because of the below factors

1. Chances of under scraping are high when we drive in second gear [higher speed means more bouncing while jumping over]

2. Comfort factor - slower speeds are possible in first gear means the car doesn't "jump" over but rather "glides" over

3. Chances of knocking / engine switching off at low speed / torque in second gear are higher because a min speed has to be maintained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by visweshkalambur View Post
@bansal - driving over a speedbreaker according to me has two factors deciding the gear at which you do it

1. height of the bump
2. Momentum at which you cross it

This would determine the gear that you ideally should be in. I understand that @ bangalore usually the bumps are pretty high..which would mean you would nt drive over it with momentum.

Given that and as mentioned by swiftnfurious, it would not be wise to drive over it in second gear as you would not have enough momentum to do it. Which would mean, not even RPM (engine rev) to use second gear. This should be the reason for stalling.

I have driven over smaller bumps decelrating in the second gear and the vehicle does not stall.

Something to ponder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohan41 View Post
I understand why @bansal prefers to have better driveability in 2nd gear. Bangalore roads have too many humps and potholes. On top of that, especially in the older areas of city there are too many cross roads and bus stops that block one half of road, where one has to frequently stop and move forward. Frequently shifting to 1st gear is irritating. Shifting to 1st gear is not as convenient as shifting to other forward gears, in terms of shifting effort. Also if you are not very slow, shifting to 1st results in more jerk.

To summarize, I too feel it is better to have a car that can crawl in 2nd gear, whether over hump or not. Most cars dont seem to do well in this aspect, except Etios, which I have not driven but GTO states in his review clearly about this. Optra's 2.0L engine should have decent torque even at low RPMs without turbo, the issue could be with bit taller 2nd gear, my guess.
Mohan has expressed very succinctly what I was trying to convey. Given the number of potholes, speed-breakers, and of course the chaotic traffic here, I find myself driving in third gear most of the time. So It's not convenient to shift to first gear whenever I have to slow down or crawl. I cross speed-breakers in second gear on my Alto and have never scraped the car or stalled the engine. It can move at near-zero speed in second gear quite easily.

Just to give you a perspective, the road connecting Hosur road to Sarjapur road has 44 speed-breakers and that road is just 6km long. 44! I have to drive on that road about about twice in a week, to and fro. So now you can appreciate why I care so much about low-end torque.

If you are driving on open roads or on highways most of the time, then of course it's a totally different story.

PS - Poitive's post came in while I was composing mine.
I repeatedly asked the Optra sales guy to get me a newer vehicle for TD which he categorically refused. He said that was the only car they had. So may be the fresh cars are better as TD vehicles are often abused. But I'll try the TD once more by keeping the gear ratio given by Poitive in mind.

Last edited by bansal98 : 3rd July 2011 at 16:45.
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Old 3rd July 2011, 17:16   #388
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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I repeatedly asked the Optra sales guy to get me a newer vehicle for TD which he categorically refused. He said that was the only car they had.
Isn't there another dealership you could go to? For a car which has been around for as long, dealerships would really not have more than one car. They do however tend to allow cars ready to be sold (or for delivery) for short drives. Torquedo had tested one such 2011 model reported before. Yes it is unfair practice, but it is very much prevalent.

Am glad to read that you are still open to suggestions after your two bad experiences with the Optra mate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bansal98 View Post
Just to give you a perspective, the road connecting Hosur road to Sarjapur road has 44 speed-breakers and that road is just 6km long. 44!
Totally crazy! That is one speed-breaker @ less than 150m. Totally crazy! Do they really have to go to such extreme measures to tame the enthusiastic Bangalore guys?
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Old 3rd July 2011, 18:48   #389
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Totally crazy! That is one speed-breaker @ less than 150m. Totally crazy! Do they really have to go to such extreme measures to tame the enthusiastic Bangalore guys?
It's like a disease with Bangalore road contractors. My apartment complex is about 500m from the main road and the connecting road was in a very bad shape. Too much dust and gravel. We met the BBMP commissioner and our local politician and after much pleading and promise of votes, the road was tarred. But guess what? It has 4 speed-breakers! There is no school nearby, no other busy place, no nothing. In fact, one side of the entire road is literally vacant government land.

What can you do in such situations. This issue of speed-breakers has been highlighted many times in newspapers also but to no avail.

On that road with 44 humps, BBMP took notice of the commuter's plight and did something to help ease the pain. Oh no. They did not remove the speed-breakers. They have, very thoughtfully, placed signs indicating 'speed-breaker ahead', two signs for each hump, on either side of the road. It would have cost them less money to demolish those humps than to put up those iron posts.
(rant over, sorry!)
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Old 3rd July 2011, 19:00   #390
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Default Re: Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Recently when I took the TD of Fluidic Verna. I was told that the booking amount was Rs 100K & the Quotation clearly mentioned "In case of cancellation of booking Rs 10K will be charged as cancellation charges", which comes to a whopping 10%. I am not sure if the booking amount is fully refundable for Vento, but should be somewhat similar to the Verna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakku View Post
I have taken TD of SX4/ Linea/ Optra/ Laura, all these guys told me the booking amount is fully refundable. On questioning, I was told, they have enough bookings, so even if there is a cancellation, they can manage to divert this booking to someone else by the time car actually arrives at their yard (moreover the booking is actually made in Sales guy's name, not the customer's).
Called up VW today to inquire about the booking amount etc. The booking amount for Vento diesel is 75k and the cancellation penalty is only 2k. Seems pretty reasonable.
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