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Old 8th July 2011, 23:40   #61
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Default Re: Returning to India

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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
I agree, I also have similar positive experiences. But it's true that if you knock somebody's door for no reason nobody will come out (even if they are in), and sometime they will come out with a gun if it's late in night. They might even call 911 if you persist.

I think it's just a sense of privacy, rights and security over one's property. And it's perfectly fine for you to do that same.
I once knocked on neighbor's door, i got a response asking who's it. I said your next door neighbor. The lady opened 25% of door and inquired what was the problem. I explained the problem and once she was comfortable she opened the door fully and started talking and discussing the problem. As a lone lady in her home, she is entitled to be on safe side rather than opening the door wide open and getting a gun pointed on her forehead.

Obviously, precaution needs to be taken whenever opening the door. And i for one think its a good positive trait. I always peep through the eye hole on the door and then open the door to be on safer side.

Mentioning 911, i recalled a funny incident. Two Indian girls, staying in same apartment, started fighting over a small issue. They started throwing utensils and stuff at each other. Later one of the girl called 911. When they came, they just laughed at the issue over which they were fighting and told not to call again for such small matters. For those who don't know, one has to pay penalty if the issue is non-existent and call 911.

Another funny incident regarding 911. My friend gave magicjack (popular India calling device) to his home in India. By mistake, his parents pushed 911 button which comes up on the dialer in computer. Getting no further response, they came to our home in USA and started inquiring since address was our local home address. Needless to say, it was a non issue and was warned once saying if it happened again, the police would charge my friend for non-issue call and give a ticket and/or possibly send him to jail. While they were at home, we did have some good time interacting with police. Even they were in good mood, so it was fun.

Even 911 now a days have started acting smartly. If they feel its not important base on what the complain is, they turn up late or not at all. Just do a follow up call asking if the problem is solved. Most of the time, its already solved.

Apologize for being Off Topic.

Last edited by chevelle : 8th July 2011 at 23:49.
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Old 9th July 2011, 07:40   #62
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Default Re: Returning to India

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1. Obsession with fitting everyone in a stereotype?
This re entered my conscious being when people started questioning me when I was planning to have a second kid and then telling me I should.
Forget the part that it is no one's business, least of all my neighbours or colleagues at work.
This was also the case before I went to college/ got a job/ bought an apartment/ got married/ had my first child/ the list goes on. What if someone doesnt want to do one of these steps? As an adult isnt he entitled to think for himself? I can understand genuine concern, which this certainly is not. And is the sky going to fall on someone's head if a guy living near you or working in your office isnt married by 28, does not have a couple of kids by 35, and so on? I am not even talking about lack of respect towards women which IMHO is so deep rooted that it warrants a separate thread. I think one already exists.
2. Insensitivity towards those who are not fit or are out of the said 'stereotype' - Behaviour towards elder people who drive cars slower than us. They have obviously driven more in times when traffic was less and probably much slower. Why the insensitivity by honking/ shouting at them? Isnt it bad enough that we dont stop to let them cross the road or help them cross one?
I remember seeing one blind guy with a white cane trying to cross a road in peak traffic. Hardly anyone came forward to help him or tell him where to go. I was in the middle of a crowded bus that zoomed past him. I wonder how he got home that day. If someone is physically or mentally challenged, does that mean we dont respect him/ her?
3. Making decisions for others - Random people make decisions for me about what I would do or not do. Apparently they know more about me at the time than myself. How does somebody know that I will or wont eat a burger if I havent thought about it myself. At least let me answer!
Unfortunately this attitude gets progressively worse with age I guess.
How do you deal with the above other than ignoring them? for me, ignoring an issue is not an option; hence looking for some pointers from you, perhaps based on your own experiences and how you have managed to tackle these.
I think #1 and #3 was always there, and not a recent phenomenon. Its even worst for women. I guess the questions they get in the said situations will be even more.
That said, #1 is not a stereotype confined to our place. It’s more of an Asian way.
#2 is a recent behavior issue. Insensitivity and aloofness is considered cool.

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3. You remain aloof of the meddling ppl. Ppl who try to label you. Ppl who try to give un-solicited advices, - this may also include your close relatives.
So be prepared to become "black sheep of the family", or the "unsocial guy" of the colony/community (which actually means he-doesn't-do-what-we-want-him-to-do).
Negative stereotype in other words. However, you get decide what happens in your life, what role everyone else plays in your life.
Reading through, I guess this is something which I practice

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Its not that bad as it is made out to be.
Totally agree. All you need is a open heart to merge with the society you live in. And with world getting so small, it’s not a difficult task.
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Old 18th August 2011, 17:20   #63
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^^Great inputs from you guys. Now I have to ask you how to manage being a middle class salaried person in India and deal with commitments not being honoured.
I will give some cases here which I have had to deal with; perhaps some of you have similar issues too. how do you think these should be dealt with? Please note that sucking it up is not really an option for the long term, so I appreciate inpute about what actions should be taken
- Home/ apartment payment made, but inordinate delays by builder in handing over apartment.
- Phone service centre refuses to provide service for product as bought elsewhere. Result: thrown unnecessarily into the grey market
- Job promotions; this one is a pandora's box. It seems like hard/ smart work pays off only so much. It is quite challenging to avoid bias
- Todays news: A leading car manufacturer drops prices of their low selling model with no respite/ thought for existing owners.

Now I feel stupid.

Last edited by selfdrive : 18th August 2011 at 17:36. Reason: modified unnecessary & inappropriate sentences
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Old 18th August 2011, 18:27   #64
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Default Re: Returning to India

May was not a great month, many people made many mistakes and I guess are regretting their decisions now.
One of them is me...well, I came back to India in May 2011 for similar reasons as cited by selfdrive.

And in the last 2 months there have been several occasions when I was almost driven to tears, just because I had gotten used to a polite and safe environment of US.
This discussion is never ending but I worry about the deteriorating state of affairs and my decision if it was correct or incorrect.

Let's talk about a very recent incident:

Two days back my pretty (almost new) car got badly damaged. I thank God that I am alive. Well, all this happened because a cow and a bull were fighting on the road and came running over my car, just out of no where.
I was scared to death, but glad as I am, I survived.

This happened in Noida, near Ram Vihar, I guess that's Sector 26. The car is getting fixed as I am writing this.

But my conclusion is, we are dodging hazards daily in India. And bad things are just waiting around the corner to happen to people.
"Sigh"

What else should I say.
It just saddens me.
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Old 19th August 2011, 10:57   #65
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And in the last 2 months there have been several occasions when I was almost driven to tears, just because I had gotten used to a polite and safe environment of US.
This discussion is never ending but I worry about the deteriorating state of affairs and my decision if it was correct or incorrect.
Well well, pretty much the same state of affairs here too. I just dont know if and when there will be any let up in the downpour of bad tidings. It just seems that after my return I am bumbling along from one bad thing to another worse thing. I guess this is what it means to be caught in a downward spiral.

The cow and bull fight is certainly scary, I had a human version of it earlier this month when two people fighting on the road fell over my ORVM and almost onto the bonnet. Thankfully for one of them, the ORVM turns the other way or he would have been hurt much worse in his lower back area.

My wife had a scary situation yesterday when a biker sped across screaming at around 60clicks from the wrong side when she was taking a right turn. She had her eyes on oncoming traffic, and we (my son and I were in the rear seat) were also surprised to see these morons emerge out of nowhere and on top of it screaming like no one's business

Also, all of a sudden the roadside Anna supporters seem to have emerged out of nowhere with blaring loudspeakers and songs. I dont know how this supports Anna's movement or stops corruption. IMHO, its only creating additional nuisance value. Well, this is turning into a thread to record multiple rants if nothing else!

Update: This morning I found that someone has flicked the seat off my Rockrider

Last edited by selfdrive : 19th August 2011 at 10:59.
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Old 19th August 2011, 11:44   #66
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Well, this is turning into a thread to record multiple rants if nothing else!
I too don't want to turn this into a thread of rants.
But we seriously need to rethink if India still has any values left.

I believe we need some Ramdev Baba or Anna Hazari to teach our people to drive in their lanes, and not spit on roads and other people's cars, and not steal things, and not damage public property, and not stare at women, and not harm small children and animals, and not swear at other drivers on the road, and respect others around them.
And the list goes on.

The sad part is that this is what hurt you more than anything else.

I don't get upset with power cuts, and bad quality roads, or traffic, or even corrupt system to an extent.

But I get deeply hurt when I see an Ambulance with its siren and lights flashing, trying to struggle in the traffic and some one inside fighting for his or her life. And people not ready to give it way.
Or when I see rash drivers on the roads, and I fear that they are going to kill someone because of their negligence and some family is going to be at loss forever.

Life is special, be it of an animal, or a human. Or rich or poor. But how much is "Life" valued in places like NCR. I don't know of other cities so I will not talk about other cities, but here in NCR, its certainly not valued.

Talking about value of life - there are many fake medicines that we buy everyday thinking its going to make us feel better!!!

What future are we looking at?
Our country's core has gone corrupt. What all can we or anyone change.

And the rate of change towards betterment, can it ever match the rate of deterioration that is happening?
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Old 19th August 2011, 11:45   #67
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@girlie- the cow and bull fight is something unique you survived that you can tell your grandkids. Would you ever have had such an experience aborad? Doubtful!

In parts of Europe and North America, moose strikes are the most common cause of accidents. You gotta deal with these things, really!

Am not trying to make light of your experience, just suggesting that perhaps it wasn't that specific incident that is causing this dissonance? Last week a friend with whom I was in high school stopped by. She has moved en famile to India and now is figuring out what to do: whether to stay or return (US citizens), get a job or start a business, or perhaps make their money work for them while they do social service etc. etc. She casually remarked that getting a job paying 30-40 lacs pa should be easy for her (mid-30s MBA from good Indian school but not worked in India much, 10+ years overseas last as Project Manager) and I hastened to disabuse her of this notion. The point is: not everything you hear from your friends "back home" may necessarily be true, or work for you.
Living with the dissonance is difficult- you need to embrace your new life wholeheartedly and accept that there WILL be things which are different from what you are used to.
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Old 19th August 2011, 12:03   #68
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@girlie- the cow and bull fight is something unique you survived that you can tell your grandkids. Would you ever have had such an experience aborad? Doubtful!
No, its not unique. I went to the same spot, at the same time again to recollect what actually happened. And I found around 12-15 cows and bulls standing around that area again. On enquiring around I learnt that there is a village nearby (Nathari village) and these animals belong to the villagers. But they just leave their cattle out, for reasons...well, there can be many reasons.
But I am wondering are there no solutions as well.
And do I need to do a hunger strike to tell the authorities to do something about it so that more accidents are not caused.

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In parts of Europe and North America, moose strikes are the most common cause of accidents. You gotta deal with these things, really!
You're right. I have seen the signs and warning on the US free-ways warning people about the deer's in the area. These are well marked areas where deer can come on the roads. But there are forest rangers who keep an eye on the moving traffic to control hazards.
And there is a small electronic device that people travelling in the night put in their cars which picks the frequencies in which deer talk and alerts the driver about an approaching deer.

There are Wildlife Collision Prevention circulars and notices printed at several areas and also in local news papers about it. And at some heavy traffic areas they have made high walls to keep the animals out of the road.

And then even if something bad happens, the help will arrive within minutes.
You won't be left alone to deal with the situation yourself. Or a cop won't come behaving in a rude way with $$ symbols in his eyes.
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Old 19th August 2011, 12:15   #69
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I don't mean to sound huffy but these kind of statements give me the idea that you were never preapred for a move to India in the first place.
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And do I need to do a hunger strike to tell the authorities to do something about it so that more accidents are not caused.

a cop won't come behaving in a rude way with $$ symbols in his eyes.
Unless these are based on some personal experience, I would dismiss this as emotional pfaff. For example, have you even made a serious attempt to report your incident to the authorities?

Please read the original post and understand selfdrive's intent in starting this thread. It is about readjusting to the bad things about India. Am sorry but getting in an accident with cows and bulls and then extrapolating that to how bad things are out her in general just doesn't cut it.
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Old 19th August 2011, 12:38   #70
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And then even if something bad happens, the help will arrive within minutes.
You won't be left alone to deal with the situation yourself. Or a cop won't come behaving in a rude way with $$ symbols in his eyes.
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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Please read the original post and understand selfdrive's intent in starting this thread. It is about readjusting to the bad things about India. Am sorry but getting in an accident with cows and bulls and then extrapolating that to how bad things are out her in general just doesn't cut it.
While I agree the original intent of this thread was to re adjust to life in India, I think I am beginning to lose heart as the downpour of insensitive behaviour is just too heavy. I knew things would be difficult, but this is way more than expected. Perhaps its just the intensity of being in the spotlight on different fronts. Its like being attacked from all directions with steel cutlery and having only a plastic spoon to defend yourself with.

Speaking for myself, all other things said and done right from issues at work to car to behaviour, I think the unkindest cut of all was to see my beloved Rockrider being dismantled. this is probably the nth time that I am being driven to despair since I returned, but the time that I will be pushed off the edge wont be too far. If I had found the bugger who flicked that seat, I am sure you would have found my name in tomorrow's newspapers and not in a flattering way. The unfortunate outcome is that all of this is turning me into a person different than the one I usually am, or at least was before I left India the last time.

I think people are just succeeding in riling me one way or the other. And I dont like it. After all I am not inviting people to provoke me, am I?

Last edited by selfdrive : 19th August 2011 at 12:39.
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Old 19th August 2011, 13:08   #71
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^^ I felt that way when both my VW logos were stolen in quick sucession, within weeks of buying the car. The fact that you have something that someone does not is enough "provocation" for some people.

But... "Downpour of insensitive behaviour", "driven to despair since I returned", "people are riling one way or another"- the words you are using are symptomatic of a much deeper-rooted problem, Bala. Trust me: when you are looking for reasons to defend a choice that you have/have not made, you will find them in every small thing.

My advice: calmly and carefully reassess where you choose to live. Having made the choice, embrace it fully. Which doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep options open, the way a lot of us have. But if you ask me, living with a persecution complex isn't living at all. Sorry if I am being too blunt.

Last edited by noopster : 19th August 2011 at 13:09. Reason: typos
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Old 19th August 2011, 13:10   #72
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I think the unkindest cut of all was to see my beloved Rockrider being dismantled
I am sorry for your loss selfdrive.

I know how sad it is to lose something that's close to your heart. I am not a materialistic person, but I do not like to lose my things. I believe its the same for everyone.

My ipod disappeared some days back from inside my home. I know its just an ipod (that too an old one), but it meant a lot to me and I think I'll never get my collection of music back.

I question this to myself often - Was it like this always in India.
Well, I grew up here.
But I think it wasn't like this before. Children used to play outside their homes without their parents getting worried that someone will kidnap them for money. And even the cops used to be nice and polite, when I was a school kid, some 20 years back I think.

I tell myself that may be its all in my head, and things are still the same. But then, I doubt myself when I read the newspapers and listen to the news.
And now, I try not to follow the news much.
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Old 19th August 2011, 13:21   #73
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My advice: calmly and carefully reassess where you choose to live. Having made the choice, embrace it fully. Which doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep options open, the way a lot of us have. But if you ask me, living with a persecution complex isn't living at all. Sorry if I am being too blunt.
Not all noop, in fact I appreciate the straight talk. I am not blaming anyone for how they behave. In fact I know that the choice to live here is mine and I am responsible for putting myself through it, be it misery or whatever else we term/ consider it. I just find it odd that I end up facing something so often and regularly that makes me question my logic/ decision. I guess somewhere down the line I may get used to it and move on, and believe me options are still open!
Whining, whingeing and ranting are not going to help me get anywhere. I have to make a decision and then live with the repercussions either way. I guess I am just more worried about the speed of degeneration. I wonder what things would be in 20 years. Lets see how things pan out

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I question this to myself often - Was it like this always in India.
Well, I grew up here.
But I think it wasn't like this before. Children used to play outside their homes without their parents getting worried that someone will kidnap them for money. And even the cops used to be nice and polite, when I was a school kid, some 20 years back I think.

I tell myself that may be its all in my head, and things are still the same. But then, I doubt myself when I read the newspapers and listen to the news.
And now, I try not to follow the news much.
As for kids playing outside their homes, I think we are too crowded for that to happen anymore unless we live in a village/ locality where everyone knows everyone and access is restricted.

To be honest, I dont think it helps us if we compare with our childhood/ generation. It would be the same thing as people being nostalgic about the 60s, we would be about the 90s (or 80s, depending on how old we are!)

By the way, I dont follow the news either. But I dont also see how the ostrich-head-in-sand situation is going to help in the long term.

Last edited by selfdrive : 19th August 2011 at 13:22.
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Old 19th August 2011, 13:31   #74
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Hi noopster,
Trust me its not a downpour. I see this as a healthy discussion.

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The fact that you have something that someone does not is enough "provocation" for some people.
I agree, but this is getting uncontrollable.
You know when people start harming someone just because that person is better, or richer, its time to realize that something is seriously missing. And that something is - Law.

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My advice: calmly and carefully reassess where you choose to live. Having made the choice, embrace it fully.
You know, that's this discussion about. Its just a bit difficult to embrace something that is obviously 'wrong'.
And I know its difficult for all of us, not only for those who have come back, but we need to accept and say "this is wrong". Not gulp it down saying "well, things happen".
In discussions like this, we have a choice either to sit back and stay silent. Or to say, its wrong and its going in a wrong direction. We are just saying that, nothing else.

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But if you ask me, living with a persecution complex isn't living at all. Sorry if I am being too blunt.
You know, I am Not persecuting the system or the state of affairs. I am just calling black as black, and white as white.
We can have different ways of looking at things. I agree to your point of view as well.
But what we are saying is that, people are becoming insensitive, value system is getting corrupt, and things are deteriorating, our country is falling apart, and we all are realizing this. There is no justification for all these things.

I know someone will say, "why don't you do the good work to improve this system?". Because I get this question often when I speak up.
So before someone says that, here's my reply, "I am not a great person, I am a mere citizen and the best I can do is to pay my taxes honestly, and follow the rules, and be nice to everyone who crosses my way. I don't want to go out in the world to make any change, for personal reasons. But I know there are departments to do this, and I hope they will do their job well."

...life!

Last edited by girlieonwheels : 19th August 2011 at 13:34.
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Old 19th August 2011, 14:57   #75
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You know when people start harming someone just because that person is better, or richer, its time to realize that something is seriously missing. And that something is - Law.
No arguments at all. Rule of law is something that is completely missing among the general populace here.

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We can have different ways of looking at things. I agree to your point of view as well.
I get that girlie. Have no intention of shoving my opinion down anyone'e throat. Just making the point that if one is unhappy there are things one can do about it rather than, you know, just feel unhappy

Quote:
But what we are saying is that, people are becoming insensitive, value system is getting corrupt, and things are deteriorating, our country is falling apart, and we all are realizing this. There is no justification for all these things.
That's a bit of a stretch. Our country is far from falling apart, in fact I would say we are economically, politically and socially much better off than we were a generation ago. Of course there are problems but there is also a willingness to attack these through public debate and accountability of the administration and elected represnetatives that was severly lacking in the so-called golden days.

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...here's my reply, "I am not a great person, I am a mere citizen and the best I can do is to pay my taxes honestly, and follow the rules, and be nice to everyone who crosses my way. I don't want to go out in the world to make any change, for personal reasons. But I know there are departments to do this, and I hope they will do their job well."
Nothing wrong in that, a perfectly healthy expectation to have . In fact it was only when I was living in Singapore, which has probably the cleanest, most efficient and EFFECTIVE administration you'll find anywhere, that I came close to feeling content on this front!

In India we have still a long way to go. I will not get preachy and say if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, because that is just silly. We do our bit and that's it.
I have friends who, when I complain that I paid x lacs as income tax last year and still have to wear a neck brace on the road leading to my office, say "When was the last time you voted?" I guess they have a point, but it's neither here nor there. Everyone has the right to expect a certain standard of living, and even demand it.

Last edited by noopster : 19th August 2011 at 14:58.
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