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Old 5th July 2011, 11:37   #766
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Rijkaard's Barca had already passed the autumn. They were going downwards. Then came Pep and revived the team only in a year. It's the most difficult task to revive the team that has already passed it's glory days. And believe me, Spanish league is much more fierce and competitive compared to EPL.
Do you believe going upwards from 3rd position was so tough for Guardiola to turn around? Just think what SAF had to face, to turn around team which was about to enter relegation zone.

Also it is widely acknowledged by players as well as managers that EPL is the toughest league in the world so am surprised by your comments. Tell me one team which genuinely challenges Barca, RM for title? In EPL we have six team who can win title.

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SAF became manager of ManU in 1986. He won his first UEFA Champions League in 1998-99. Now...do I need to type or explain further?
Forget Man Utd, he won European Cup with Aberdeen and that to defeating Real Madrid. Now imagine Guardiola/Mourinho doing the same with Aberdeen by defeating United in Champions League Final?

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Exactly my point. SAF hasn't been under pressure of getting sacked for many years. Jose, AVB, Pep have to go through much adverse conditions and still they thrive.
That is ridiculous. Did SAF have a clause with Man Utd that he could not be sacked? How is it even possible that he would not be under pressure to deliver success.
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Old 6th July 2011, 18:04   #767
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You haven't been around, have you? Utd won the UEFA Cup Winners Cup in 1991 (it was later reformatted into what we call now as UEFA Champions league) and also the UEFA Super cup.
My dear friend, ULC was previously referred to as European Champion Clubs' Cup ( Or European Cup) and not UEFA Cup Winners Cup. However the confusion is normal and only the serious followers can spot the difference . And do you know who won the European Cup in 1991? It was Barca. So who has not been around?


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Real, Barca, Bayern, Inter, AC, Juventus and all the other powerhouses have hit tremendous form in cycles througout the last 2 decades. Nobody has been consistent. Utd lost on trophies in the early 2000s only when the oil baron from Ukraine/Russia started spilling $$.
Real, AC Milano and Liverpool have been traditional European power-houses. ManU (and Inter) may have excelled in local leagues, but their records in UCL are not that great. So they will still have to improve to be there in the same league.

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Do you believe going upwards from 3rd position was so tough for Guardiola to turn around? Just think what SAF had to face, to turn around team which was about to enter relegation zone.
Is it that easy? Then why Mr. Arsene Wenger is still struggling to win EPL for last so many seasons? He has got experience and he is one of the finest coaches around. Have you watched Kenny Dalglish turning tables for Liverpool in the same season when they were in serious trouble?

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Also it is widely acknowledged by players as well as managers that EPL is the toughest league in the world so am surprised by your comments.
Please tell me seriously. How many leagues do you follow apart from EPL? Have you ever checked the quality of players outside EPL? Believe me, even Bundesliga is a very strong league. They all are at par when it comes to competitiveness. Else EPL teams would have won all recent UCLs.

And could you cite the names of players and managers who have 'widely' acknowledged that EPL is the toughest league in the world? Even UEFA President Michel Platini doesn't feel that way.

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Tell me one team which genuinely challenges Barca, RM for title? In EPL we have six team who can win title.
Now, there you are. Could you mention the name of any of these 'six' teams which has won EPL apart from ManU or Chelsea in recent past?

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Forget Man Utd, he won European Cup with Aberdeen and that to defeating Real Madrid. Now imagine Guardiola/Mourinho doing the same with Aberdeen by defeating United in Champions League Final?
Sorry. He never won European Cup with Aberdeen. Do you mean to say - UEFA Cup Winners' Cup?

Last edited by Panko : 6th July 2011 at 18:32. Reason: Merged
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Old 7th July 2011, 08:20   #768
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Real, AC Milano and Liverpool have been traditional European power-houses. ManU (and Inter) may have excelled in local leagues, but their records in UCL are not that great. So they will still have to improve to be there in the same league.
Well these powerhouses havent really dominated in Euorpe in the CL era, have they? Its the nature of the competition - its tougher now. Liverfools have won only 1, RM has 3 in one golden run, and Barca have 3 (with 2 great teams), ACM have won 2, We (Man Utd) have won 2 (and lost 2 finals to Barca), Inter have 1, Bayern have 1, Ajax have 1. So no team has really dominated UCL.

Pre-CL it was a different competition, level was much much lower. No wonder no team has ever managed to retain UCL, not even Barca. While earlier there were teams that would win it 3 in a row.

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Is it that easy? Then why Mr. Arsene Wenger is still struggling to win EPL for last so many seasons? He has got experience and he is one of the finest coaches around. Have you watched Kenny Dalglish turning tables for Liverpool in the same season when they were in serious trouble?
We'll know how far dalglish has taken pools. let them first come in top 4

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Please tell me seriously. How many leagues do you follow apart from EPL? Have you ever checked the quality of players outside EPL? Believe me, even Bundesliga is a very strong league. They all are at par when it comes to competitiveness. Else EPL teams would have won all recent UCLs.

And could you cite the names of players and managers who have 'widely' acknowledged that EPL is the toughest league in the world? Even UEFA President Michel Platini doesn't feel that way.
EPL record speaks for itself. The likes of Tottenham beat Inter and AC Milan so convincingly. Bayern couldnt match Inter who were soundly beaten by Schalke who we beat with our second team! Arsenal came close to trouncing Barca (only a wrong sending off saved barca there in my honest opinion). pools beat Real 4-0 at their home ground. what more evidence do you want ? i dont care what platini thinks. he is not god and is known to be anti-English (he is french.. what else u expect)

fact is, Barca and Real are good, but outside of them EPL top 4 have no match in europe. bundesliga is actually very poor, the defenses there are no match to the elite in europe.

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Now, there you are. Could you mention the name of any of these 'six' teams which has won EPL apart from ManU or Chelsea in recent past?
The point is they are in contention till the business end and there were 7 teams in scrap for relegation on the last day! Its not like spain wehre after 4 weeks its only between Real and barca. EPL is more competitive in that sense.

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Sorry. He never won European Cup with Aberdeen. Do you mean to say - UEFA Cup Winners' Cup?
yes he won cup winners cup with Aberdeen. They beat Real Madrid (coached by de Stefano) in the final!
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Old 7th July 2011, 13:46   #769
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Panko - Looking at your points, am not able to understand your POV. Is there a personal grudge against SAF or United? If yes, then its understandable otherwise its puzzling.

Because you see though am an United fan, I mean no disrespect to the other teams. I just love Football and am all for a great match up. I have been following them from the early 90s when Cantona and the then lesser known Roy Keane ruled the roost. Followed by the famous youth camp which nurtured the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Neville...etc. It is difficult to not really like them and respect them and SAF for what they have done in the last 2 decades. I guess thats all we are try to put across.
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Old 7th July 2011, 14:28   #770
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Originally Posted by Panko View Post

Is it that easy? Then why Mr. Arsene Wenger is still struggling to win EPL for last so many seasons? He has got experience and he is one of the finest coaches around. Have you watched Kenny Dalglish turning tables for Liverpool in the same season when they were in serious trouble?
Thats because wenger has his own philosophy and doesn't want to adapt to the situation and change it!
And it was indeed not a tough challenge for pep. He inherited a very good squad, which was doing quite well already. Not denying any credit to him, but certainly doesnt compare to the situation in which SAF took over!


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Originally Posted by Panko View Post

And could you cite the names of players and managers who have 'widely' acknowledged that EPL is the toughest league in the world? Even UEFA President Michel Platini doesn't feel that way.
Here you go. I digged up only 3 links, but I have read many more players voicing the same opinon!

Torres said, "It is difficult to say which league is better, but the Premier League is more competitive because the British are becoming stronger and players are coming to England."


Fernando Torres: Premier League Is Still Toughest In The World - Goal.com


Robben said "Well, from my point of view, I've always said Spain and England have the strongest leagues in Europe at the moment. I think, looking back at last season, England has proven that maybe they are one little step ahead of the Spanish league simply because last year there were three English teams in the Champions League semi-finals.

The English teams are doing really well and we see them as one of our biggest rivals on our way to the final of the competition."

Spanish La Liga - ESPN Soccernet


Gyan said “It's the most difficult league in the world and you need to be 100 per cent fit to survive, which I wasn't when I arrived"

Asamoah Gyan hopes to improve for Sunderland in the upcoming season ~ iBetSports

And these are players who have played in multiple leagues.
And does anyone care about what platini says about england? Everybody knows he is biased against them!


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Originally Posted by Panko View Post
Now, there you are. Could you mention the name of any of these 'six' teams which has won EPL apart from ManU or Chelsea in recent past?
Its not just about who wins it at the end! its about how closely it is fought through the season!
Even this season, all of the top 4 teams had a very good chance to win the league, even in april! havent seen anything close to it in either spain or italy in a long time now!
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Old 7th July 2011, 14:58   #771
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Is it that easy? Then why Mr. Arsene Wenger is still struggling to win EPL for last so many seasons? He has got experience and he is one of the finest coaches around. Have you watched Kenny Dalglish turning tables for Liverpool in the same season when they were in serious trouble?
Bro, you're forgetting one important thing...
Wenger is the one reason why Arsenal aren't majorly in debt, like Man U was.
That is inspite of not having the Merchandising revenue or gaining the TV revenue that Man U does.

He's bought players cheap, developed them and sold them off expensive.

Now i'm not saying he's right, but there is more than one way to look at his situation.

1> He's Building a financially stable foundation on which he will build a team. It might take some more time, but looking at the money he has spent, the Money he has earned, Qualification for the UCL and his league position i think he has done an admirable job. Arsenal are on the cusp of Sustained glory. Once they take that step, they will be formidable. His is a long term plan that will eventually bear fruit for a long long time.

2> He's grown senile and doesn't know what he is doing.

I personally think he's the former.
You have to consider that Arsenal don't have the financial backing that some of the other clubs have and they have just built a new stadium.

If Arsene had spent big monies, i have no doubt that Arsenal would have performed Much better, maybe even won the UCL, but then they would have had a debt that is much larger than what they have now. Arsene's policy of buying cheap and selling expensive is going a long way towards reducing that debt.

PS: I'm not an Arsenal fan.
I just think Arsene is going the right way about things.
Making a sustainable model that all clubs should follow.
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Old 7th July 2011, 18:03   #772
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Sorry. He never won European Cup with Aberdeen. Do you mean to say - UEFA Cup Winners' Cup?
SAF never won European Cup with Aberdeen. But do you know that he won the 1983 UEFA Super Cup which was contested between European Cup Champions and European Cup Winners?

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Originally Posted by figo_united View Post
Here you go. I digged up only 3 links, but I have read many more players voicing the same opinon!

Its not just about who wins it at the end! its about how closely it is fought through the season!
Even this season, all of the top 4 teams had a very good chance to win the league, even in april! havent seen anything close to it in either spain or italy in a long time now!
Its not without a reason that EPL is the world's most watched league. Forget Platini, even according to UEFA Coefficients which are used to rank and seed clubs in all competitions, EPL is at the top.
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Old 7th July 2011, 18:14   #773
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No one interested in Copa America 2011? :-)
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Old 7th July 2011, 18:39   #774
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EPL record speaks for itself. The likes of Tottenham beat Inter and AC Milan so convincingly. Bayern couldnt match Inter who were soundly beaten by Schalke who we beat with our second team!
This is exactly why EPl is said to be overrated.
How can you even compare a team like Tottenham with major teams from other European leagues just based on a couple of games?
For all their might, Tottenham managed to just reach the final 8 of CL, that too just once
Spanish teams have been running riots in Europa League/Champions Cup ( the tournament to judge the best of the rest) with Sevilla winning twice and Atletico Madrid once, the same tournament where tottenham etc have been competing for years just to make up the numbers.
The only achievement of an English club off late has been Fulham reaching the finals 2 years back, only to be beaten by Atl. Madrid.
I agree that the 3rd and 4th EPL teams are more consistent than La Liga but thats about it. The rest are nowhere near them.


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Arsenal came close to trouncing Barca (only a wrong sending off saved barca there in my honest opinion). pools beat Real 4-0 at their home ground.
Arsenal became the first club to play a CL without even a single shot at goal thanks to that game. Did you seriously expect Arsenal to turn around the game all of a sudden after the damage was already done by Barca, considering they never even looked interested in scoring with or without RVP?
Wenger finds an excuse every year to justify his philosophy that has clearly failed to bring any success.

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fact is, Barca and Real are good, but outside of them EPL top 4 have no match in europe. bundesliga is actually very poor, the defenses there are no match to the elite in europe.
Leagues arent judged just by the top 2 or top 4. EPL runs out of steam once you look at the non top 4


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Originally Posted by GearOn View Post
Its not without a reason that EPL is the world's most watched league. Forget Platini, even according to UEFA Coefficients which are used to rank and seed clubs in all competitions, EPL is at the top.
AFAIK, coefficiants are calculated by the performance of the clubs in CL from each league.
How can the performance of top 4 EPL clubs alone judge the quality of league considering the other 16 teams have been dismal in Europa league etc like i've said before?



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Bro, you're forgetting one important thing...
Wenger is the one reason why Arsenal aren't majorly in debt, like Man U was.
That is inspite of not having the Merchandising revenue or gaining the TV revenue that Man U does.
Firstly, your comment about Man Utd's debts is totally wrong.
They were not in debt(atleast anything close to current figures) till their present American owners bought the club and transferred all the debts onto the club's shoulders.
Arsenal never had such a situation.
They had to build a new stadium and i understand Wenger parting with some good players when the funds were necessary.
However, Wenger has taken the task of rebuiding as the motto of his life and even though emirates stadium generates twice the revenue as Highbury, Wenger continues his obsession.
In fact, the board has repeatedly spoken about availability of funds.
Its Wenger's stubbornness to accept the failure of his football philosphy thats preventing Arsenal from taking a serious shot at titles.


Quote:
He's bought players cheap, developed them and sold them off expensive.
1> He's Building a financially stable foundation on which he will build a team.
Once they take that step, they will be formidable
His is a long term plan that will eventually bear fruit for a long long time.
Why would anyone sell of their best players if they are serious about fighting for silverware?
Fact is, Arsenal has a large number of mediocre players whose wages are far more than what they deserve.
Instead of getting rid of them, Wenger is selling off his best assets and investing back in youth scouting/poaching etc
Players get tired of being with a club and manager who lacks any ambition and would be content at being fourth in the league
When will the ever so called "long term plan" see light as long as they keep selling off whichever good players they have for 16yr olds
Its an eternal team rebuild thats going on in Arsenal

Talk about reinventing the wheel!



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2> He's grown senile and doesn't know what he is doing.
You hit the bulls eye on that one!

Last edited by athul_S : 7th July 2011 at 18:46.
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Old 7th July 2011, 19:40   #775
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This is exactly why EPl is said to be overrated.
How can you even compare a team like Tottenham with major teams from other European leagues just based on a couple of games?
For all their might, Tottenham managed to just reach the final 8 of CL, that too just once
Spanish teams have been running riots in Europa League/Champions Cup ( the tournament to judge the best of the rest) with Sevilla winning twice and Atletico Madrid once, the same tournament where tottenham etc have been competing for years just to make up the numbers.
The only achievement of an English club off late has been Fulham reaching the finals 2 years back, only to be beaten by Atl. Madrid.
I agree that the 3rd and 4th EPL teams are more consistent than La Liga but thats about it. The rest are nowhere near them.
OK I can answer this. Theres a very valid reason why english teams dont seem to do that well in Europa Cup (by the way, of late, English teams have done tremendously well - way better than others - in the champions league - They regularly top their respective groups, and are generally there in the last 8/4/2).

Europa Cup is NOT a priority for most top teams. The reason being the financial importance of finishing in TOP 3 or 4 (and getting a CL berth which is worth millions). There is no substantial financial reward for winning europa cup (not even prestige , plus it only means nuisance of extra games). Thats why we didnt see Liverpool or Spurs going for it (they played their second teams in this competition). And its not just English teams- we didnt see Juventus or AC Milan or Bayern going for it in recent times when they played Europa cup. For all these teams CL qualification is more important. Most of the spanish teams who won it were either already out of CL spots or maybe didnt bother. Dont know much about spanish mentality.

And we can compare Spurs with other major sides. why not? They did beat AC Milan convincingly and also beat Inter Milan. They play very attractive, attacking football and generally produce better games than most continental teams. They boast players like Modric, Van der Vaart and Bale who are very much respected all over. They are a good team, better than likes of Villareal, Atletico or Sevilla. And they are only 6th in England!!! EPL now has at least 6 very good teams. No other league can boast that!

Last edited by joslicx : 7th July 2011 at 19:42.
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Old 7th July 2011, 20:49   #776
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Firstly, your comment about Man Utd's debts is totally wrong.
They were not in debt(atleast anything close to current figures) till their present American owners bought the club and transferred all the debts onto the club's shoulders.
Arsenal never had such a situation.
They had to build a new stadium and i understand Wenger parting with some good players when the funds were necessary.
However, Wenger has taken the task of rebuiding as the motto of his life and even though emirates stadium generates twice the revenue as Highbury, Wenger continues his obsession.
In fact, the board has repeatedly spoken about availability of funds.
Its Wenger's stubbornness to accept the failure of his football philosphy thats preventing Arsenal from taking a serious shot at titles.
I'm not considering how they got into debt, just the fact that they are in debt. I know well enough that Man U is in debt because the Glazers took loans on a holding company to buy the club & then transferred the debts to Man U itself... cheap tactics.

What i was trying to get across was that Arsenal aren't monetarily too good either. If the go all out and buy the Kaka's and the Sneijder's of the world they'd be seriously in debt. it is not a sustainable model.

Look at Bayern's finances.
They have no debt.
They have posted profits for the last 18 consecutive years.
Inspite of their TV revenue & ticket sales figures being dwarfed by their English & Spanish counterparts.

If you look at the last 15 years of Wenger's reign over Arsenal, he's almost earned half of what they paid for the stadium.
Most clubs earn from Merchandising, TV Rights and Ticket sales....

Besides I personally do feel Wenger has gone senile
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Old 7th July 2011, 22:39   #777
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I'm not considering how they got into debt, just the fact that they are in debt. I know well enough that Man U is in debt because the Glazers took loans on a holding company to buy the club & then transferred the debts to Man U itself... cheap tactics.

What i was trying to get across was that Arsenal aren't monetarily too good either. If the go all out and buy the Kaka's and the Sneijder's of the world they'd be seriously in debt. it is not a sustainable model.

Look at Bayern's finances.
They have no debt.
They have posted profits for the last 18 consecutive years.
Inspite of their TV revenue & ticket sales figures being dwarfed by their English & Spanish counterparts.

If you look at the last 15 years of Wenger's reign over Arsenal, he's almost earned half of what they paid for the stadium.
Most clubs earn from Merchandising, TV Rights and Ticket sales....

Besides I personally do feel Wenger has gone senile
You seem to think debt is a bad thing. But actually in business world it is a very common practice. Most companies run on debt. they raise capital and then service it. The idea to turn profits and use them to pay back the debt.
Football clubs are also big business, esp the big clubs. This idea is extended to a common person as well. Suppose I were to buy a house. In Bangalore a good property (lets say a 3BHK flat) will cost upwards of 75 lakhs. One way is to wait till I have that much money and then buy it. otherwise if I have decent enough income and decent enough future potential in me then I can go and get a loan, say for 60 lakhs, put 15L of my own money and voila, I have a house. i can then pay back in the next 10-20 years from my future earnings.

Man Utd, if you dont know, have been hugely profitable (in fact this year their profits were in range of 100m pounds). From pure business perspective they have never made a loss! They are the biggest, most profitable, and most valuable sports entity on earth (source Forbes). they have had to write off lot of money (which was more financial mumbo-jumbo) as they had debt restructuring (and some money might have been siphoned off by the owners themselves) but as things stand, their liability now is only 45m per year while they make much much more than that. They have made deals worth almost 50m a year in marketing in the last year itself, and are in the process of negotiating a 400m pound deal with Nike for merchandising. All this plus they have a 76k seater stadium that generates 100m pounds per year from footfalls only. united, historically, have been the best manages club in football world.

The fact remains united are a massive money making machine. thats why glazers are still clinging to it even when they have had huge offers (1.5B) which would have doubled or trebled their investments. Until united keep winning, theres no stopping them making lots of money.

On the other hand, you can look at clubs like Barca or Real. Barca are also about 400m in debt, and they made a loss of about 39m this year (when they won CL). Real were also in massive debt until the spanish govt bailed them out. Fact is, you cannot just compare uniteds prudence in financial matter with any other sports franchise in the world!!!
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Old 7th July 2011, 23:22   #778
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This debate is getting more and more interesting. I will make my contribution too. First of all, Wenger is a good coach. He is an average tactician. There is a difference between the two. Many people accuse Wenger of not going on a spending spree. Well as far as I know Arsenal had a huge debt post the move from Highbury to Emirates. They also built some real estate in that area which has started to yeold revenue now. So as far as spending is concerned I think Wenger did not have sufficient funds.

EPL - I have been following EPL for the past 3 years only. I am not well versed with the history of EPL. But on the basis of what I have seen English football is very direct and physical. Take the case of Manutd. If you observe most of their goals come from crosses. Wingers play the key role for Manutd. Rooney is good at providing the finish touches. Is this style of play wrong? No. Is this style of play as entertaining as Barca or Arsenal? No. The reason why Arsenal are not able to acheive what they deserve is simply because of their playing style. I admire their style of football but they need to be direct at crucial stages. Passing game works well only when you have players like Xavi and Messi.
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Old 8th July 2011, 04:57   #779
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
You seem to think debt is a bad thing. But actually in business world it is a very common practice. Most companies run on debt. they raise capital and then service it. The idea to turn profits and use them to pay back the debt.
Football clubs are also big business, esp the big clubs. This idea is extended to a common person as well. Suppose I were to buy a house. In Bangalore a good property (lets say a 3BHK flat) will cost upwards of 75 lakhs. One way is to wait till I have that much money and then buy it. otherwise if I have decent enough income and decent enough future potential in me then I can go and get a loan, say for 60 lakhs, put 15L of my own money and voila, I have a house. i can then pay back in the next 10-20 years from my future earnings.

Man Utd, if you dont know, have been hugely profitable (in fact this year their profits were in range of 100m pounds). From pure business perspective they have never made a loss! They are the biggest, most profitable, and most valuable sports entity on earth (source Forbes). they have had to write off lot of money (which was more financial mumbo-jumbo) as they had debt restructuring (and some money might have been siphoned off by the owners themselves) but as things stand, their liability now is only 45m per year while they make much much more than that. They have made deals worth almost 50m a year in marketing in the last year itself, and are in the process of negotiating a 400m pound deal with Nike for merchandising. All this plus they have a 76k seater stadium that generates 100m pounds per year from footfalls only. united, historically, have been the best manages club in football world.

The fact remains united are a massive money making machine. thats why glazers are still clinging to it even when they have had huge offers (1.5B) which would have doubled or trebled their investments. Until united keep winning, theres no stopping them making lots of money.

On the other hand, you can look at clubs like Barca or Real. Barca are also about 400m in debt, and they made a loss of about 39m this year (when they won CL). Real were also in massive debt until the spanish govt bailed them out. Fact is, you cannot just compare uniteds prudence in financial matter with any other sports franchise in the world!!!
Debt is not necessarily bad, but there are limits...

Man U was just a case i was pointing out. Because if they can't pay off their PIK loans by 2017, they'll lose the club. Now i doubt that will happen.

The Chelseas & Man Cities of the world will all fail when their benefactors lose interest in the club.

My point of a sustainable model is to preclude that fact that a club has to rely on other external business entities to be able to compete.

I agree that Man U don't need a rich benefactor to bail them out, but they did need a bond. if that bond had tanked, they'd be in deep trouble right now.
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Old 8th July 2011, 10:45   #780
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Originally Posted by Sprucegoose View Post
Debt is not necessarily bad, but there are limits...

Man U was just a case i was pointing out. Because if they can't pay off their PIK loans by 2017, they'll lose the club. Now i doubt that will happen.

The Chelseas & Man Cities of the world will all fail when their benefactors lose interest in the club.

My point of a sustainable model is to preclude that fact that a club has to rely on other external business entities to be able to compete.

I agree that Man U don't need a rich benefactor to bail them out, but they did need a bond. if that bond had tanked, they'd be in deep trouble right now.
Well, the PIK loans have been paid for! Heres the BBC link for the same

BBC News - Manchester United's Glazer family to pay off PIK loans

And in a hypothetical scenario if Man Utd start going down, Glazers can always find willing buyers. There will be a posse of rich businessmen outside OT the day Glazers put Utd for sale! Already they have turned down an offer of GBP 1.5B from Qatar (this would have given them a cool 800m profit on their "investment" in Man Utd). As I said, United are too big, they have a global fanbase (estimated at about 300+million) and a very strong business model. Their liabilities at present are only about 45% level (about 500m of debt while their worth is more than 1.2B in GBP terms) and that is a very comfortable level in most businesses. Add to that the kind of profits they make (purely as a business, it was more than 100m last year and is only going to increase when that 400m deal with Nike is done), their debt is hardly a headache for the owners anymore.

On the other hand, from supporters point of view, it has been a problem because most supporters feel united are not so aggressive at pursuing big-name signings because of debt problems and Fergie's hand tied by the owners. How much of a truth in there, nobody knows, but still fact remains that during Glazer ownership Man Utd have had one of their most successful time on the pitch - 4 PL wins and 3 CL finals (inc a win). Not many clubs can match that right now (except maybe Barca and Inter.)
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