Go Back   Team-BHP > Around the Corner > Shifting gears


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th September 2011, 23:24   #76
Senior - BHPian
 
bluevolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 2,954
Thanked: 2,198 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by misquitas View Post

Having said that, there are some who would argue that diesel cars emit less of certain types of noxious gases. Not sure who is right in this debate.

Whatever that may be but I have never seen smoke out of a petrol car's exhaust; less pollution in front of our eyes with evidence.
bluevolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2011, 17:31   #77
Senior - BHPian
 
oxyzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Not fixed.
Posts: 1,026
Thanked: 265 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

But as far as retaining petrol cars is concerned, I think it is not advisable to sell a brand new one for a diesel. If you are so much worried about Fuel costs, get a CNG fitment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
With diesels, the fun is over even before it starts.
Come on dont you think it is a bit harsh. There are diesels that can give Petrol a run for their money on performance. The VW 1.6L TDi and the 2.0L TDi can impress any driver with the massive torque. They might not rev upto 6500 RPM but surely can do 5200. To me it makes sense to go for a diesel as you do not loose entirely the performance factor. What you loose on RPM and power, you get back in midrange torque. And 95% of your driving is in the midrange (& lower) band. So considering both are at par, the financial advantage in a diesel makes it more sensible.
oxyzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2011, 21:49   #78
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,451
Thanked: 87,178 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Come on dont you think it is a bit harsh. There are diesels that can give Petrol a run for their money on performance. The VW 1.6L TDi and the 2.0L TDi can impress any driver with the massive torque.
One of my cars is a common-rail diesel with a 6 speed MT & 340 Nm of torque, capable of doing an indicated 247 kph, and has phenomenal grip + braking to match. So I do a thing or two about diesel performance

Believe me, if we're talking equal power or category, in terms of driving pleasure, the petrols blow the diesels away. Of course, this is entirely subjective and there would be many who prefer diesels. But for me : As competent as the 2.0 CRDI engine of the Laura is, give me the sweet 1.8 TSI petrol any which day.

Quote:
They might not rev upto 6500 RPM but surely can do 5200.
5,200 is really the upper limit, and diesels are strained at that point. Plus, few diesels make any progress after 4,500 rpms, even if they revv higher. BTW, 6,500 is just an average petrol. Drive some of 'em Hondas with their 7,000+ rpm revv limiter. A simple remap takes the ol' Honda City Vtec (or, more recent, the Civic) to 8,000 rpms. Diesels dont have a revv-limiter at 5,000 rpms. They simply run out of breath!

Modern diesels are fast, no doubt. Some even faster than their petrol counterparts. Are they as much fun? FAT CHANCE. Atleast to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misquitas View Post
GTO'S TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR A PETROL-HEAD:

1. The sheer pleasure of high-revving a petrol.

2. Ability to use those additional RPMs in corners.

3. Enjoying drives is more important than the cost of fuel.

4. Nothing beats the sheer joy of revving the nuts of a smooth, silky, redline-happy petrol engine.

5. With diesels, the fun is over even before it starts.

6. A nicely tuned free flow and resultant aural symphony just adds that much more to the pleasure quotient of sweet petrols.

7. Clattery diesels? No comparo.

8. The smile on one's face is more important than the weight of one's wallet.

9. When a person has lived, the person should know that he/she lived like he/she wanted to.

10. Prefer the sight of the RPM counter to the fuel gauge.

Last edited by GTO : 18th September 2011 at 21:51.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2011, 22:06   #79
BHPian
 
jp2u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: chennai
Posts: 228
Thanked: 16 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Petrol cars future = Dull
Diesel Cars future = bright

Petrol is a nice revving car as per GTO, but practicality doesn't allow revving to an average earning fella

I think the electric spark version is/was about to launch some time this year or so, do not know what happened to that ?

Go electric.
jp2u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2011, 22:17   #80
Team-BHP Support
 
suhaas307's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,050
Thanked: 6,576 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp2u View Post
Petrol cars future = Dull
Diesel Cars future = bright

Petrol is a nice revving car as per GTO, but practicality doesn't allow revving to an average earning fella

I think the electric spark version is/was about to launch some time this year or so, do not know what happened to that ?

Go electric.
No. Actually, fuel-cell is the way forward.

Diesel has a bright future, for a few years perhaps. But both petrol and diesel have grim futures. Electric cars are not the future either. They are way too impractical. To cover a distance of 300 km, one will need to leave the car to charge for more than half a day! Plus, electric cars may give you the impression that you're not burning fuel thereby doing a good deed, however, you'd be wrong.

Electric cars pollute the atmosphere, indirectly. You need to charge the car, right? So where does the electricity come from? From a plug-point in your house, right? And where is electricity generated?!

Read up on the Honda FCX Clarity. Or better yet, watch this:



Sorry for going OT, fellas.
suhaas307 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2011, 23:24   #81
Senior - BHPian
 
oxyzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Not fixed.
Posts: 1,026
Thanked: 265 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
As competent as the 2.0 CRDI engine of the Laura is, give me the sweet 1.8 TSI petrol any which day.
Agreed, The turbo petrol has diesel like torque & to me both are at par.
However. I would choose the Cruze power-plant instead of a Civic's. I respect your opinion but my preference is different.

I dont have anything about petrols. But I need the torque. And with the limited expose I have I believe, the Turbo petrols cant match up to the diesels. My choice was between the T-Jet and VentoD. In the Vento you can feel the pure G force. In the T-Jet, not to that extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A simple remap takes the ol' Honda City Vtec (or, more recent, the Civic) to 8,000 rpms.
I have driven a Swift to 7000RPM after removing the limiter. It was fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Modern diesels are fast, no doubt. Some even faster than their petrol counterparts. Are they as much fun?
Which version of these do you think is more fun to drive?
1) Beat
2) Figo
3) Micra
4) I20
5) Vento
6) Verna
7) New Fiesta

Isnt the faster variant always more fun to drive?

Last edited by oxyzen : 18th September 2011 at 23:26.
oxyzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 00:08   #82
Team-BHP Support
 
suhaas307's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,050
Thanked: 6,576 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

I'd like to give my views on this. I know you haven't asked me, but I'm going to speak like a true-petrol head here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
However. I would choose the Cruze power-plant instead of a Civic's. I respect your opinion but my preference is different.
I'd choose the other way round. I like my engines high-strung. I find diesel cars a little boring. Yes, they are incredibly fast when the turbo spools up, but the power is so flat, that it's just the same old thing whether you're doing 30 km and the turbo kicks in, or 120 km/h, when the turbo is spooling up.

In a car like the Civic, you find the power at the top of the rev-band, which I'd like to call, the 'business-end'. More than the power that one gets at 6k RPM in a Civic, it is the sensation that you get, while getting there. If you know what I mean. As the revs climb towards 6k, the power builds up gradually and steadily. You get more power from 4k-5k RPM, and even more power as the revs climb to 6k. That's the beauty of a petrol engine like the one found in a Civic, or any Honda for that matter. It pushes, and then it shoves, and then it completely blows you away. A diesel engine is all torque, all at once. And gets boring towards the higher revs, and the power even tapers away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
I dont have anything about petrols. But I need the torque. And with the limited expose I have I believe, the Turbo petrols cant match up to the diesels. My choice was between the T-Jet and VentoD. In the Vento you can feel the pure G force. In the T-Jet, not to that extent.
Really!? I think the T-Jet is superb! I haven't driven the Vento D, and I'm sure it's a powerful and torquey car, but the T-Jet is at another level altogether. It reminds me of the famed Octavia vRS.

Petrol turbos are absolutely mind boggling! The Porsche 911 Turbo makes a staggering 500 horses. I don't think there is any diesel car that can out-run a Turbo. There is a reason why we don't find diesel sports cars that crack the speed barriers. (although I don't really know what it is )

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
I have driven a Swift to 7000RPM after removing the limiter. It was fun.
It was fun? That's it? *nods head in disappointment*

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Which version of these do you think is more fun to drive?
1) Beat
2) Figo
3) Micra
4) I20
5) Vento
6) Verna
7) New Fiesta

Isnt the faster variant always more fun to drive?
Fords are known to make the most fun-to-drive cars. The Figo and the New Fiesta (and the old one too) are extremely fun to drive. They're let down by poor engines though. Not the old 1.6S.

The Vento is fun to drive as well, from what I've read.

The Verna is scary, due to poor dynamics, and the same goes for the i20. When I drove a friend's i20, I found the steering lacking in feel, and the car didn't inspire confidence as the speeds increased.

The Micra is neutral, from what I've heard. Haven't driven one so can't come to a conclusion.

The Beat is a fun city-car, but gets a little nervous as the speeds increase. I've driven one but only around the city. Haven't pushed one even close to its limits.

Just because a car is faster, need not necessarily mean that it is more fun to drive than a car that is slower or makes lesser power. Case in point, the new Honda Accord. The V6 is brutally fast, but the car is not fun to drive at all. Compare that to a Skoda Octavia vRS, that is slower, but is immensely fun to drive. The old Fiesta 1.6S only makes 100 bhp, but the superb steering wheel that communicates very well, the excellent 'box and the sorted chassis make it a very lively and fun car. Much more fun than the more powerful All New Honda City that makes 118 bhp.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 19th September 2011 at 00:16.
suhaas307 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 03:41   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
shuvc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 2,895
Thanked: 282 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Am running 2 petrol cars. One on EMIs , one without.

I have asked myself the same question as the OP. And it really does not make sense to sell the 5.75 yr old Baleno and replace it with a diesel. Yes, if it was just a matter of saving fuel costs, I could sell the Baleno and buy a used Indica with the sale proceeds. But, to me car ownership is not just about fuel costs.

If I replace the Baleno I would want a car that has at least the qualities about it which I like .. for eg, but not limited to,
a) space (front and rear and boot)
b) fun to drive
c) ease of maintenance
d) reliability
e) looks (yes I love it's lines !)

I need to make sure that when I spend 5-10L it needs to be a product I will be happy to live with for a few years.

And so I had actually tried shortlisting diesel cars that I could live with as a Baleno replacement. The Vento seemed to be an option. The old and new Fiesta's maybe. Linea at a stretch (mainly due to A/S/S issues). And no I cannot live with a Verito, Dzire, SX4, Verna, Etios ...

None of the diesel hatches would suffice. Of late the rear seat of the Baleno gets used quite a bit. And the hatches are frankly cramped for me.

In fact the Jazz would be a strong contender as a replacement today. It would fairly satisfy most needs and would be 2-3L lesser than the diesel options that I could live with.

Bottomline - a suitable diesel replacement would cost 8-10L ! Negate the loan interest with the Baleno resale. And it's a whopping differential to avail of diesel economy! Not only that, the new diesel car will depreciate a lose more absolute value over the next 3 years than the Baleno. The insurance costs per year will be higher on the new car. I will be paying road tax again on the new car. I even factored in a 50K per annum maintenance expense on the Baleno since it is 75K kms 'old'. Even then it does not make sense.

I'll probably keep it for another 2-3 years and 1L+ kms. And then take a call on whether to replace with a diesel/petrol.

But yes, if the sole objective is to save on running cost, then forego all the other factors and buy the cheapest used/new diesel you can.

Last edited by shuvc : 19th September 2011 at 03:45.
shuvc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 11:08   #84
Senior - BHPian
 
oxyzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Not fixed.
Posts: 1,026
Thanked: 265 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
In a car like the Civic, you find the power at the top of the rev-band, which I'd like to call, the 'business-end'. More than the power that one gets at 6k RPM in a Civic, it is the sensation that you get, while getting there. If you know what I mean. As the revs climb towards 6k, the power builds up gradually and steadily. You get more power from 4k-5k RPM, and even more power as the revs climb to 6k. That's the beauty of a petrol engine like the one found in a Civic, or any Honda for that matter. It pushes, and then it shoves, and then it completely blows you away. A diesel engine is all torque, all at once. And gets boring towards the higher revs, and the power even tapers away.
The civic has close to 135 BHP.
A Cruze has 150BHP. And that too is available at a low RPM.
If you cmpare the power graph, Cruze Leads the civic till 4000RPM. So you need to rev the nuts out of the engine to get the performance. Let me break it down for you. In a Civic you need to be in the optimum gear (Lowest possible) to extract the most from the engine.. In Cruze, thanks to the wide power band of diesels (3500-4500 for a typical diesel) being in the right gear is not essential. The only downside I see in the Cruze is the turbo lag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Really!? I think the T-Jet is superb! I haven't driven the Vento D, and I'm sure it's a powerful and torquey car, but the T-Jet is at another level altogether. It reminds me of the famed Octavia vRS.
The T-Jet is superb. There is no denying the fact it is one of the best in its segment. But it is no way comparable to the 1.8 Tsi. Nor it has the mad torque rush of Vento or Verna1.5.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
It was fun? That's it? *nods head in disappointment*
And why should that be when I remapped it myself. (With a little help from a freiend).

And as far as the comparison goes I was asking about comparisons between Petrol v/s Diesel Figo. (Or Verna or Vento etc). Considering both has similar handling and other characteristics, which of the Variants is more fun to drive.
oxyzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 12:08   #85
Distinguished - BHPian
 
dhanushs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bathery/BLR
Posts: 3,440
Thanked: 4,042 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Isnt the faster variant always more fun to drive?
Sorry if I'm barging in, but, when it comes to fun-to-drive, the cars you listed deosnt even come close to the Fiesta. Fast is NOT always fun.

Try this: Choose a wide enough, twisty ghat section, and drive UP a humble petrol.. say Fiesta 1.6 S, and a diesel a torque monster like the cruze. You'll know why some enthusiasts (including me) swear by petrols!

For a torquey diesel, if there is any fun, its the 'turbo-kick' on the highways. For a high-revving petrol, its entirely a different game.
dhanushs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 12:16   #86
Senior - BHPian
 
mayankk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 4,099
Thanked: 3,402 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Sorry if I'm barging in, but, when it comes to fun-to-drive, the cars you listed deosnt even come close to the Fiesta. Fast is NOT always fun.

Try this: Choose a wide enough, twisty ghat section, and drive UP a humble petrol.. say Fiesta 1.6 S, and a diesel a torque monster like the cruze. You'll know why some enthusiasts (including me) swear by petrols!

For a torquey diesel, if there is any fun, its the 'turbo-kick' on the highways. For a high-revving petrol, its entirely a different game.

I was wondering when you'd get here.....
Agree with your point above.
Some years ago, i drove a civic up to dhanaulti, then a zen, and a few months back the fiesta.
The civic was good, but got a bit squidgy at times, as in,slightly wary cos there was slight chance of coming out of a corner too quickly..
The zen was amazingly planted, but wouldnt get up and go with 4 on board.


I did not know till i drove the fiesta up that what an amazing driver's road that drive up to dhanaulti is.
mayankk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 15:06   #87
Team-BHP Support
 
suhaas307's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,050
Thanked: 6,576 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
The civic has close to 135 BHP.
A Cruze has 150BHP. And that too is available at a low RPM.
If you cmpare the power graph, Cruze Leads the civic till 4000RPM. So you need to rev the nuts out of the engine to get the performance. Let me break it down for you. In a Civic you need to be in the optimum gear (Lowest possible) to extract the most from the engine.. In Cruze, thanks to the wide power band of diesels (3500-4500 for a typical diesel) being in the right gear is not essential. The only downside I see in the Cruze is the turbo lag.
This is precisely why I like petrol cars over diesel cars. You need to rev them hard. you don't get power just like that, you need to flog the car. And that's a part of the whole experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
And as far as the comparison goes I was asking about comparisons between Petrol v/s Diesel Figo. (Or Verna or Vento etc). Considering both has similar handling and other characteristics, which of the Variants is more fun to drive.
The Figo is a fun car. The Verna is not. period.

The Vento has a great chassis, and the engine options give it an edge over most cars in the segment.
suhaas307 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 15:16   #88
Senior - BHPian
 
oxyzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Not fixed.
Posts: 1,026
Thanked: 265 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Guys Guys guys. Please read between the lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Which version of these do you think is more fun to drive?
Isnt the faster variant always more fun to drive?
I was comparing petrol v/s diesel for the following Cars.
I am well aware Power/Torque is only half of the story. Rest is handling & Braking.

What I meant was I would happily choose any of the cars in diesel avatar (of the following list).
You can see that most of the diesels currently sold in India have an upperhand in performance over their petrol sisters as I had mentioned in the list. (Except for the Fiesta classic & T-Jet)


However I agree Fiesta 1.6 is a great driver's car. And currently with the price slash it is even more tempting.
Another petrol fun to drive is Palio 1.6.

But now it is time for diesels to rule. The Cruze, Vento, Jetta, Laura and even the swift diesel are very good cars to drive.
oxyzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 15:54   #89
Senior - BHPian
 
mayankjha1806's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BLR/Gurgaon
Posts: 2,133
Thanked: 820 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuvc View Post
and boot)
b) fun to drive
c) ease of maintenance
d) reliability
e) looks (yes I love it's lines !)
Liked the quote above, being a fellow owner of a Black Baleno i can vouch for every word written above. Will i sell the car, i don't think i will at least for another 30K Kms (She is at 58K now and will surely think something after she crosses 90K). She chugs the road (especially highway ones) like glue and last trip to Chennai made me fell in love with her again.

I have driven fair bit of Diesels at under 10L OTR BLR and have not liked a single one of them as compared to Baleno. So if i have to replace i might have to bump the budget to close to 20L as i am not happy with Cruze.

So for now we have decided if we buy a second car it will be petrol (Laura/Civic) and only if we buy an SUV it will be Diesel.
mayankjha1806 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2011, 16:02   #90
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,136
Thanked: 3,733 Times
Default Re: Does it make sense to retain petrol cars, considering the frequent fuel hikes?

@GTO; If petrol cars go the small engine + turbo way then some of the fun will be lost. It is the instant linear response we love on out Petrol motors. The indications are that the turbo petrol is coming in a big way.
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does buying a used Baleno make sense? sonic Sedans 60 4th November 2014 13:00
Does Bhp/tonne Make Sense Vulken Auto The Indian Car Scene 33 24th October 2011 21:20
Toyota's new scheme for the Corolla- Does it make sense? Rtech Indian Car Loans & Insurance 16 28th October 2006 16:08
Swift Advertisement: Does it make sense ? Technocrat The Indian Car Scene 32 16th December 2005 01:57
No parking fees in Bangalore. Does it make sense? amitoj Shifting gears 21 3rd February 2005 19:16


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:39.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks