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Old 12th January 2012, 20:19   #136
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Originally Posted by mayankjha1806 View Post
There was a time when we were reducing our defense budget thinking military might would no longer be needed in front of economic might. As history tells us that never turned out to be a right decision. Since last decade are again investing in modernizing our forces which is the need of the hour.
After Independence, Pandit Jawarharlal Nehru started investing heavliy in the Public Sector industries, built larger number of dams and infrastructure, created insitiutions like the IIT's and the National Defence Academy and much much more. He was very successful in all that he did in the process of Nation Building. He was regarded as one of the greatest leaders in the World and our status as a nation was great. But he spared little money on Defence preparedness and equipment and manpower. He had a great equation with the Chinese leaders particularly Chou n Lai and never expected the Chinese to attack us. We lost thousand of square kms to them.

But he learned fast and got his best Man Mr YB Chavan to head the Defence Ministry, tied up with the Soviet Union and the West. Steadily our Govt went on an expansion drive of the Armed Forces which continues to this day. But the cost was too high.

Very little money was left for poverty alleviation, investments in Industry and else and other welfare programs.

The Soviets were kind to sell Military hardware for 1/10th actual cost of the hardware.

One of the reasons for the low per capita income was the enormous defence expenditure over the decades of the 1960/70/80/90, coupled with costs of fighting so many wars. 1965/71 IPKF ops and internal insugency in J & K and the NE states.

But our Political class irrespective of parties and ideologies supported the Defence expenditure which at time was as high as 70 % to the National Budget!

Most of the deficit financing and external borrowings from the IMF went to Defence. Damn in the 1970's we had no food to feed us! Thanks to PL 470 the Americans gave us plenty of free food!

Fortunately after liberalisation there was surplus money available to the Govt only in the last decade for Nation Building and Poverty alleviation.

Defence Expenditure remains high very high to this day.

It is the tax payers money and the sacrifices the people of India made to secure our borders.

There are 3 budgets presented in Parliament. The Railway Budget, the actual budget which million watch on Tv and the Defense Budget.

NO PARTY has ever debated or objected to this massive expenditure but squabble a lot on other issues of the Budget which are dimes and nickles compared to the Defence Budget.

And yes there other costs like Nuclear Weapons (budgeted to Atomic Energy), DRDO for nuclear and other missiles and ISRO for ICBMs. Add these costs and you have a mind boggling figure.

No other sector of the national economy gets as much money as the Armed Forces. It is another thing that only 40 to 50 % of the budgeted amount gets actually spent !!

Yes Defence expenditure is a waste as some one has suggested. No doubt. But should Indian people will never want any country to roll over our territory like the Chinese did in 1962.

Today economically and militarily we are well balanced and on our way to true super power status. Thanks to all of you and the people of India and yes thanks to the Political Class too !!

As far as Manpower is concerned (Officers) the shortage is there despite lowering of standards at Services Selection Board because Indian economically exploded the last 15 byears and career oppurtunites are and options are way way too many compared to the 1970's when I joined the Forces. Why NOT? Tis a good thing.

But the Govt has been very very kind to perk up the salaries and perks in the AF's specially in the last 15 years.

The money part is taken care of more than adequately what remains is to market the AF's as a great career option for the Youth of India.

Look I had a great time in the Indian Navy, I had super Commanding Officers and Admirals who did a great job in building the Navy. I had it all except money (my time money was bad, not now, but no cribs).

We have a done a bad job at marketing Your Forces for a career option.

A few have given some great information of a career in the AF.

The thread is back on track for generation X not those who are well settled in careers elsewhere. But you guys can also contribute in spreading awareness!
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Old 12th January 2012, 21:13   #137
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Originally Posted by deetee View Post
I find that there are trains that start from Mangalore central and go via Payyanur. But unfortunately reservation is not available on those trains , I think because of short distance. I wonder how long it takes in a bus (135km).
But given that ( from google map and thanks to Deep Blue) Payyanur railway station is closer to Ezhimala , I think we will board train ( wonder why even seat reservation is not allowed for short distance ).
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Originally Posted by Latheesh View Post
Yes train is a better option, by road it will take around 3-3.5 hours.
Besides chances of getting a direct bus from Mangalore to Payyanur are less. You will have to change at Kasargod.
Take the train. In almost all the trains originating at Mangalore central, the Kannur,Kozhikode quota seats in the reserved compartments will be vacant. Talk to the TE, they will allow you to occupy those seats on paying the difference amount. You will get a reciept as well.
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Old 12th January 2012, 22:18   #138
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Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
........The thread is back on track for generation X not those who are well settled in careers elsewhere. But you guys can also contribute in spreading awareness!
Thanks for sharing your insight. Except the Nehru part I totally agree with you.

We are too lucky to have people like you to make our way of life way it is now.

Thanks so much.
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Old 12th January 2012, 23:03   #139
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Thanks for the information. This is an eye opener for me.

Apart from this package, does an AF job provide medical coverage for immediate family members?

If someone retires from AF after serving for 20 years, what kind of retirement "Nest Egg" or pension does one usually build? (Assuming average growth in Ranks).
@Netfreak, yes, immediate family members which includes wife, offspring, unmarried sister and dependent parents are entitled to medical services which includes almost anything.

The "Nest Egg" is rather subjective, but if savings start early and is done wisely, given today's salaries, 1 to 1.5 Crores should be gettable. Of course, it depends on your lifestyle and what you consider "necessary expenditure" during these 20 years. On the other side, today, I see a lot of youngsters investing wisely at an early age. I know of a youngster who at 1.5 yrs of service (approx 24 Yrs old) has already bought a 2BHK flat and a B class sedan and yet has enough money to live comfortably. Now his savings will be a lot less at 20 yrs, but he would already have a lot anyway!!


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Originally Posted by Tapish View Post
On the question raised by someone else about the pensions not being applicable to others, it is because the AF starts retiring you pretty early. Not all people retire at 60. Captain sir and others may correct me, but if you retire as a Col, you will probably be out of the Army by 48. A BRig will retire at 50-52. Those who make it to MAj Gen will retire at 54, Lt. Gen. at 56-58 and Gen at 60. The civilian counterparts will continue serving till 60. The pension mechanism is there to protect the interests of those who retire early (and thereby lose out on the earnings for the remaining years).
After the AV Singh Committee Reccomendations being accepted by the government, all officers are guaranteed the rank of a full Colonel or equivalent if they continue to serve. Hence the retirement age in case of superannuation at the rank of a Colonel will stand at 56 yrs.

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Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
This is what I know, but it is open to correction from people actually serving in the forces.

Time bound promotions happen till the rank of Lt.Col [and equiv ranks in the Navy and IAF]. After that, there's a course that has to be taken at the Defence Services Staff College at Wellington [near Ooty], that makes you eligible for further promotions. There's an entrance exam [limited # of attempts] that has to be passed just to be eligible to attend this course. After this course is over, then further promotions are a matter of performance [present and past], any gallantry medals won, any specific expertise gained etc.

Cheers,
Vikram
Quite correct, but Staff College etc are secondary, what matters is your performance in the role assigned, specially in the period immediately preceding your promotion.

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Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
Defence Expenditure remains high very high to this day.

It is the tax payers money and the sacrifices the people of India made to secure our borders.

There are 3 budgets presented in Parliament. The Railway Budget, the actual budget which million watch on Tv and the Defense Budget.

NO PARTY has ever debated or objected to this massive expenditure but squabble a lot on other issues of the Budget which are dimes and nickles compared to the Defence Budget.

And yes there other costs like Nuclear Weapons (budgeted to Atomic Energy), DRDO for nuclear and other missiles and ISRO for ICBMs. Add these costs and you have a mind boggling figure.
Won't agree totally Nandu sir. For the record, in the Union Budget 2011, the budgeted Defence Expenditure was 1.8% of GDP which is amongst the lowest if not the lowest in our strategic environment. At the same time, the government is pushing to increase the investment in infrastructure to 9% of GDP by 2014.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
No other sector of the national economy gets as much money as the Armed Forces. It is another thing that only 40 to 50 % of the budgeted amount gets actually spent !!
Most of this is not because the Forces don't have the means to spend it, but it is the bureaucratic processes involved in Defence Procurement that is to blame. Most of the money that is returned is from the new acquisitions code-head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
Yes Defence expenditure is a waste as some one has suggested. No doubt. But should Indian people will never want any country to roll over our territory like the Chinese did in 1962.
Well said sir, but then public memory is necessarily short!!
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Old 13th January 2012, 03:45   #140
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Defence Expenditure remains high very high to this day.
Thank you for the post but there are certain sections that i feel are contrarian to what i have read over the years. For example following section from Papers from the Indian Defence Review

Defence expenditure

India's defence expenditure has been sinking in real terms. Inflation, currently around 11 per cent, is expected to rise. India's defence expenditure as a proportion of GDP declined from 4.04 per cent in 1986-87 to 2.53 per cent as against Pakistan's 6.88 per cent and China's official figure of 6 per cent (actual reported to be significantly higher).

As a proportion of total government expenditure, Pakistan spends 26.52 per cent, China 23.8 percent and India14.94 percent. India's defence expenditure share of governmental expenditure has come down from 17.27 per cent in 1987-88 to 14.94 per cent in 1993-94 and 13 per cent in 1994-95.

Defence allocations in 1994-95 were Rs 230 billion. This has been increased to Rs 250 billion in 1995-96.

The breakdown percentage in 1995-96 was :

Army 53.96%, Navy 13.29%, Air Force 25.69%, Defence production 1.76%, R&D 5.28%

Lack of funds has resulted in mothballing tanks, ships and aircraft. This reduces immediate combat readiness. Pensions for defence personnel have been taken out of the defence budget and are met, from the consolidated fund of India.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:49   #141
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Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
public memory is necessarily short!!
This is bit of a bummer, for me at least. I may not talk about 1962, 1965 or 1971; but hey most of my age group would at least recall Kargil!

Ignorance is one thing, but...

Anyway, back to the topic.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:24   #142
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I am not sure regarding authenticity of this incident, but still thought of sharing here.

Indian Army jawans helping a pregnant lady to reach hospital at Buddal, Rajouri district, Jammu.


Name:  army.jpg
Views: 2786
Size:  73.8 KB

It is because of such noble deeds (keeping aside the stray incidents), my respect for these men remains.

Spike

Source - Facebook
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:44   #143
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Wow some of the vitriolic replies seen on this topic has knocked me out. The BHPian who started this thread had a very basic and simple thought of making aware as to what all it involves in joining the Defence. I am an ex Army Officer -took premature after 30 years of Service in 2005-was amazed at the ignorance of the people in the Colony around me on procedures for enrolling. The moment I settled in there were so many young boys and girls who approached me for details including the type of salary, perks family etc. As a matter of fact just yesterday in Forum Value Mall, Whitefield-a sales girl approached me as she wanted to become an Officer as she was a graduate.
Therefore the idea is good-another Profession open to all. Everyone of us contribute to the Country-but Defence is the only Profession wherein death stares at you through most of your career. we all are volunteers and no one forces you to join-lets respect each other's choice.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:55   #144
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After the AV recomendations being accepted by the government, all officers are guaranteed the rank of a full Colonel or equivalent if they continue to serve. Hence the retirement age in case of superannuation at the rank of a Colonel will stand at 56 !
Joining the armed forces in our country still remains a voluntary choice unlike many other countries which expect the youth to be compulsorily "drafted" for a min period to seven their nations in uniform!
Well my two cents of advice since I'm still serving and my better half has just hung her blue uniform after glorious 15 years in the IAF : the grass always appears to be greener on the other side. Now that she is on the other side working in the corporate world ...she has experienced both the careers from close quarters. Both careers have their pros and cons.
Let's not glorify one profession over the other. We all have made our own choices to the Serve the nation in our own different way. Albeit in the most dignified manner.
My only worry is that we still arnt able to attract high quality youth into our armed forces.

Last edited by manson : 14th January 2012 at 19:11.
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:01   #145
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A[/b]I retired having served in the Indian Navy for 22 years in 1998 and since I am sailing in the Merchant Navy.

After retiring and having settled down in Pune, I started to interact with Civilians much more than when I was in the Navy.
Hi,

I come from a fauji family and very proud of the upbringing that it offered me and my brother. My Dad was in the IN (ex NDA) and served for 22 years before taking premature retirement in 1979. As kids, my brother and I travelled to some fantastic places in India and abroad. I loved the life in Defence Services.

My immediate family served in the Services for 3 generations primarily in the Navy and Army as did many of my other relatives. My Dad advised us to go in for civilian jobs simply because of the money. I was very keen to join the IAF and my bro the Army.

Both my brother and I grew up and took up careers in the corporate world. But whenever we visit Navy Nagar and othe places in South Mumbai there's that heavy dose of nostalgia with memories of childhood flooding back. Some of the best years of my life were within the safe confines of the Indian Armed services. Jai Hind!

Regards,
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:13   #146
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In a democratic country, dissent has as much place in any discussion as ascent. In a healthy democracy, even patriotism may be questioned. When dissent is quelled, dictatorships are born. Surely, I believe, most would not like us to join our neighbors.

So while many have undying faith in this institution, all I say is that there is no such thing as an honorable institution and a dishonorable institution. There are good people in any institution, and bad people in any. The men make the institution, not the buildings.

The people who shot down unarmed civilians in 1919 were also army of some country.
So are the soldiers who go to Africa in UN fleets to save their helpless from plunder.
So are the soldiers of dictators who go on plunder and murder when they take on villages in africa.
So are those who come and build shelters and homes for flood affected.


So no institution can be so sacred that there may not be any dissent against it. Its the people who make institutions. Some institutions have more good men than bad, and some institutions have more bad men than good.

So why bother if rohan dissents with Army job having more "honor, pride, sacrifice....". Its his right. And the Army stands at the borders to protect this right.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 13th January 2012 at 16:14.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:10   #147
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Jumping in this thread, I want to contribute a few cents from my life here.

My late grandfather was a part of the Indian National Army (Azad Hind Fauj) headed by Netaji. He took pride in telling me the stories of the freedom struggle when I was a kid. We used to sit for hours together listening to the heroic tales of fearless warriors who embraced death for their motherland.

My dad (now retired) worked as the Financial Advisor for the Ministry of Defence - Ordnance factory. Seeing all this, I had a keen interest in joining the army. However, I lost the physical fitness test in NDA. The dream still remains a dream.

I salute those who serve the armed forces.
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Old 13th January 2012, 18:05   #148
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In a democratic country, dissent has as much place in any discussion as ascent. In a healthy democracy, even patriotism may be questioned. When dissent is quelled, dictatorships are born. Surely, I believe, most would not like us to join our neighbors.
Well said sir! Healthy dissent is often termed as exchange of intelligence.
Cheers!
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:12   #149
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After the AV recomendations being accepted by the government, all officers are guaranteed the rank of a full Colonel or equivalent if they continue to serve. Hence the retirement age in case of superannuation at the rank of a Colonel will stand at 56 !

My only worry is that we still arnt able to attract high quality youth into our armed forces.
Well this is a general crib right across many professions. Many CEO's of Blue Chip companies say the same thing (remember the recent spat between Narayan Murthy and Chetan Bhagat both IIT-IIM's) !

In the 1970-90 our Private Sector was operating under liscence permit Raj. There was no problems attracting good quality youth in the Armed Forces. Once the Private Sector exploded post liberalisation and the phenominal growth of the IT and manufacturing sectors, the competition for attracting quality youth was fierce and to some extent the Armed Forces lost out.

Fast forward to the years of recession 2007 and I read that applications for joining the Forces had touched a mindboggling 4 lakhs applicants!

Even to this day, it is not easy to get into NDA/Naval Academy. I know 8 really smart kids personally who failed at the SSB's! I was stumped and called up the Commandant NDA (a course mate of mine ex NDA 38th) and met him. I told him you must be happy with the quality of the Cadets.

His analysis was that around 85 % were good and the Faculty was having a hard time with 15 % Cadets who were under performers! How did these guys get in? Major blame was attributed to SSB Coaching Classes run by Retd AF Officers! Most of the faculty at these coaching classes were ex SSB Officers and they trained the Candidates to beat the system.

Way back in 1983-86 I was a Squadron Commander at NDA. Seriously I was really impressed with the super quality of the Cadets. The 120 odd cadets in my Squadron, at least a 100 were really good. Yet I heard cribs from fellow Training Officers at NDA that quality of the Youth was sub standard.

While training the Cadets I told my 4 sub ordinate Training Officers in the Squadron "Ignore the good guys just focus on the under performers." I made it clear I want these under performers to get to the Above Average mark. That is what we are here for !

We succeded except in one case though we tried very hard.

Last edited by nanduchitnis : 13th January 2012 at 19:17.
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Old 14th January 2012, 07:48   #150
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Well this is a general crib right across many professions. Many CEO's of Blue Chip companies say the same thing (remember the recent spat between Narayan Murthy and Chetan Bhagat both IIT-IIM's) !
Captain, if all sectors have the same complaint, it can only mean that the high quality youth are happier working for themselves than for others.
Or its a direct reference to the brain drain
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