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Old 11th January 2012, 11:23   #76
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Default Re: Joining The Armed Forces

Sorry I didn't realise that this was meant to be a one-dimensional thread where Defence fanboys will pretend that only they wake up in the morning, shave their beard, are disciplined and attend meetings on time. Everyone else in the world is an indisciplined and lazy moron. Sorry to have wasted your time, obviously you guys are living in your own little bubble and not open to a discussion.

But let me tell you, today's generation is not so stupid. You can't attract today's youth by making vague statements like "quality of life", "boys become men", courage, patriotism etc. Today's youth wants to see facts and figures before taking up a stream/job.

When our company visits engineering colleges for campus recruitment, we inform the prospective candidates about their salary structure, other perks, career growth options etc. These things are descrbied properly in facts and figures so that they can make an informed decision of joining our company. We don't go around showing random videos and making vague remarks like our company will convert you into a man, we will teach you to shave and attend meetings on time.

This thread has exceeded 5 pages, but I still don't see any concrete information regarding salary structure, other perks, career growth opportunites etc. All I could read was courage, patriotism, respect, discipline, physical training, survival techniques. Trust me, today's youth doesn't care about these things.

Just to clarify, I have never shown any disrespect to the Armed Forces. But at the same time, I am also of the opinion that they do not deserve any additional respect than any other profession. Agreed that they are working in severe conditions and live away from their family, but they are also getting sufficiently compensated for this. So it evens out.

There are many civilians who wake up earlier than defence personnel, do more physical labour than defence personnel, take more risks than defence personnel, stay away from their family and still don't get sufficient compensation/medical care/insurance/pension.

Also, it is incorrect to say that only Defence personnel have courage and patriotism towards the country. Defence people get paid for this courage and patriotism, whereas an average civilian is busy with his respective duty towards the society and does not get opportunities to display their courage and patriotism on a daily basis.

Still, there have been many accidents/tragedies where civilians have shown extraordinary courage and risked their lives to save victims. (The recent AMRI fire was one such case). Those civilians did not get any compensation or medal for their courage, but still risked their lives to save others.

Armed Forces personnel would like to think that they make the world go around. But let me tell you, without engineers there would be no arms. All fighter planes, tanks, ships and missiles were made by lazy engineers, who can't wake up in the morning, shave their beard or attend meetings on time.

The computer on which you are reading this thread, the broadband which connects your computer to the internet, the team-BHP server - all have been created by engineers. All vehicles that we discuss on team-BHP are designed by engineers. Still, engineers never say that they are superior to other life forms and should be given additional respect.

Respect has to be earned, not commanded/demanded.

Rohan
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:01   #77
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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Sorry I didn't realise that this was meant to be a one-dimensional thread where Defence fanboys will pretend that only they wake up in the morning, shave their beard, are disciplined and attend meetings on time. Everyone else in the world is an indisciplined and lazy moron. Sorry to have wasted your time, obviously you guys are living in your own little bubble and not open to a discussion.
Discussion is still going on. I do not see any bubble! However, I asked you a few questions earlier, would like to see your response.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
But let me tell you, today's generation is not so stupid. You can't attract today's youth by making vague statements like "quality of life", "boys become men", courage, patriotism etc. Today's youth wants to see facts and figures before taking up a stream/job.
Join Indian Army
Indian Air Force : Career Opportunities
Pay And Allowances of Naval Personnel - Indian Navy

It is all there buddy, in public. Also, it is published in the adverts when they come out. However, I would appreciate the direct inputs from the officers in Armed Forces about their opinion about it and would also like that today's youth, as you call it, sees it before coming to a conclusion.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
When our company visits engineering colleges for campus recruitment, we inform the prospective candidates about their salary structure, other perks, career growth options etc. These things are descrbied properly in facts and figures so that they can make an informed decision of joining our company. We don't go around showing random videos and making vague remarks like our company will convert you into a man, we will teach you to shave and attend meetings on time.

This thread has exceeded 5 pages, but I still don't see any concrete information regarding salary structure, other perks, career growth opportunites etc. All I could read was courage, patriotism, respect, discipline, physical training, survival techniques.
I too, want a bit more simplified information here in this thread itself. Let me get some spare time, I will work on it myself and post.

In the mean time, visit their websites (I posted the links earlier) and you will get answers to most questions.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Trust me, today's youth doesn't care about these things.
And this is what hurts the most.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Just to clarify, I have never shown any disrespect to the Armed Forces. But at the same time, I am also of the opinion that they do not deserve any additional respect than any other profession. Agreed that they are working in severe conditions and live away from their family, but they are also getting sufficiently compensated for this. So it evens out.

There are many civilians who wake up earlier than defence personnel, do more physical labour than defence personnel, take more risks than defence personnel, stay away from their family and still don't get sufficient compensation/medical care/insurance/pension.

Also, it is incorrect to say that only Defence personnel have courage and patriotism towards the country. Defence people get paid for this courage and patriotism, whereas an average civilian is busy with his respective duty towards the society and does not get opportunities to display their courage and patriotism on a daily basis.
Quoting from samurai's post on last page.

When I was young I had once asked somebody why military guys don't pay tax or get free facilities unlike the civilians. I was told military guys are willing to face death as part of their job. Can't say the same about bankers, engineers or other professions. Yet to meet a Volvo bus driver who is willing to face death as part of the job. Let's not bring accidents into the picture, it can happen to anybody. Even an unemployed man can have an accident. Military guys will operate in conditions that has very high chance of death or disability. They also live in in-hospitable conditions away from family for months or years together. That kind of sacrifice for others is not made by any other profession.

An investment banker working 18hours a day is also working hard and sacrificing his family life. But that is not for the greater good. Let's not compare that with soldiers hunting terrorists in the border.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Still, there have been many accidents/tragedies where civilians have shown extraordinary courage and risked their lives to save victims. (The recent AMRI fire was one such case). Those civilians did not get any compensation or medal for their courage, but still risked their lives to save others.

Armed Forces personnel would like to think that they make the world go around. But let me tell you, without engineers there would be no arms. All fighter planes, tanks, ships and missiles were made by lazy engineers, who can't wake up in the morning, shave their beard or attend meetings on time.
Again, see the quote above. Doing things for himself is good, doing things for others is great. These people do the great things on daily basis (Please do not indulge money matters into this. That may work for a few, for most of them, they are equally passionate to serve the country)

Also, ask any pilot what is he without the help of ground crew? You will get the answer. Everything works in a cross-woven way.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
The computer on which you are reading this thread, the broadband which connects your computer to the internet, the team-BHP server - all have been created by engineers. All vehicles that we discuss on team-BHP are designed by engineers. Still, engineers never say that they are superior to other life forms and should be given additional respect.
Were the inventors not proud of their inventions? I hardly think so. And the inventors were given the due credit in most cases, weren't they? Rest of them do their regular jobs IMO.

Any profession where the employee is happy about his position, is good enough and most appropriate. I am happy with my current job profile (I am into Agricultural Research sector BTW), more than that I love my work, which in turn brings out the results and that in turn brings out the money!

However, at the end of the day, most of us are doing all this for ourselves. period.

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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Respect has to be earned, not commanded/demanded.
And thats why Armed Forces are respected, because they have earned it over the decades.

Please go through the earlier discussion, I am hoping there will be more than enough memebers willing to answer the questions you may have.

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Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
why do you expect the good old captain to create threads on topics that are not relevant to him? if there are others who are willing to share knowledge, they should take it up. Its not his fault that other threads on other topics are not put up. His is a good effort at volunteering information and sharing his experiences.
Brilliantly summed up, selfdrive. The thread is to share the information which we do not see happen generally. And I appreciate that.

BTW, that 'Bloody Civilian' thing is very common saying to have some light moments between friends, in most cases. I hope you understand the rearings of it. I do make fun of my friends in Army to some extent I would not like to explain here!

Last edited by GTO : 12th January 2012 at 14:31. Reason: No more than 2 smilies per post please
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:18   #78
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Default Re: Joining The Armed Forces

@Nandu sir,

thanks for your good initiative .. but........you may have feeling like ''why i started this thread?'',
may be like '' jaana tha japan, pahuch gaye china''.

After reading all the discussion here, the point here argued became ''tera shirt sabke shirt se safed kaisa ye prove kar nahi to tera shirt black hai''.

Last edited by ASHISHPALLOD : 11th January 2012 at 12:25.
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:19   #79
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A significant number of Team BHP members belong to the Armed Forces or may have retired.

I was wondering if a PANEL could be formed of Members who have served in the Army/Navy/Air Force who could motivate and guide Team Bhp members to consider a career in the Armed Forces for their sons/daughters.

I retired having served in the Indian Navy for 22 years in 1998 and since I am sailing in the Merchant Navy.

After retiring and having settled down in Pune, I started to interact with Civilians much more than when I was in the Navy.

I realised that most people (read parents) had a poor knowledge of a career in the Armed Forces.

Most parents were majorly following the herd attitiude to groom their kids for a future in IIT/Engineering/Medicine//Archietecture/MBA even Hotel Management and some such careers. No offence meant to IITians and Engineers. When I asked many such friends why not consider the Armed Forces, I found that none had applied their minds to that option at all.

I told my firends "Look after the VIth Pay Commission the Pay and Perks are unbeatable to that offered by the Private Sector. The promotion prospects are garunteed upto he 4th level minimum, starting salaries are around Rs 30,000, perks are a dime a dozen. Pensions after 20 years service is a cool Rs 50 k and rising. Vacations 60 days per year, free Medicals and so on and so forth. Memberships to clubs, golf, and what not. The most important thing is QUALITY OF LIFE which the Armed Forces affords which cannot be matched in the Private Sector. "

I am glad to say that over the last 10 years I have motivated around 14 kids to join the Armed Forces and all are rocking!

My own kids are in the USA earning good salaries and living a good life.But they tell me "Dad we cannot dream of a life style that we lived as kids in the Indian Navy environment and the way you and Mom lived your life."

My son was a definative NDA prospective but Medicals shattered his dreams of joining the Armed Forces. Most regretfully he works for Bill Gates instead of the Indian Air Force.

Let's set the ball rolling.
Respected Sir,
What a wonderful thread we have here.

I can be a case study for why youngsters may/may not opt for the armed forces So here goes, a little of my background...

My dad (sadly he's no more) served in the Indian Army for as long as i can remember. He was a Nine Para Commando with a laundry list of credentials to his name including having been the first to cross the river Ganga "Ganga Expedition" in a raft. He's someone, to this day, whom i consider the COMPLETE MAN.

When i completed my schooling back in 1998, it was only too obvious what my dad wanted me to do. Go to NDA and then IMA, just the way he had done. But my plans were otherwise.

Hell, I was just going to turn 18 in a while. I wanted to freak out, have girlfriends, party, wear a stud on my ear, get a tatoo...and the list goes on! There was no way i was going to get my a** whooped for the next 5 years in NDA and IMA.

Well, to cut the story short, i did appear for the NDA exams (Twice at that!) and both times i flunked in the math papers. I was glad i flunked (at that point of time).

Today, am 30 years old, have earned the designation of a Creative Director in reputed advertising agency and drawing a salary of close to 1 lac a month.

If you ask me, i cant really say if i was lucky or unlucky to not join the armed forces.

Yes, I do miss travelling places (postings), I do miss out on the perks. And most of all i miss the RESPECT you get.

But that's life. Maybe if i thought the same way i do today when i was 17 years old, i would have got into the forces.

Maybe the reason why many youngsters don't opt for the forces is simply because they are too immature!

Cheers!
Aadhitya
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:22   #80
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Will like to chip in here. Though I am in the private sector for the past 5 years, somewhere at the back of my mind I do lust for the 'fauji' life. Having grown up as a 'Fauji' kid (my father still is serving in the Indian Navy) I know what that life has to offer and quite frankly though no regrets now I know I would have had a ball of time there!

With the 6th pay commission coming in I can say that money is not really an issue any more, though it was at the time when I was at an age to choose between a Fauji life or a corporate life.

Today whenever kids do talk to me about career options, I try make them explore the option of a career in the Armed Forces as well. But my success rate is not as good as Nandu sir, simply because these kids usually get into peer pressure of take a more traditional BTech/MBBS/MBA career path!

But I do hope the situation changes in the coming few years.
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:33   #81
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Noopster the key question is this. Are your relatives happy ?
Absolutely! Not just happy but they are the pride and joy of the rest of the family who are mostly doctors, engineers, IIT and IIM types and bankers! BTW, A Few Good Men is one of my favourite movies!

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My son had the same issue EYESIGHT and now he is living a rich sad life with Microsoft in America. Very sad. Money os not everything nor is America.
True. I feel bad for those guys who were hellbent on a services career but got rejected because of eyesight or some other fitness concern (guy I know had a hole in his heart or some such).

Related question: have the armed forces upped their efforts at attracting the brightest and the best because I am seeing quite a few TV and print adverts about joining the Air Force etc. these days that I hadn't noticed earlier?
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:39   #82
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One of the major reason for many people not getting a chance to join the armed forces is the rejection on medical grounds. The medical requirements by the armed forces is very stringent. For eg one of my friends who failed to qualify due to the space between the spinal bones (or something I dont exactly remember) to be more than the prescribed. Also in another friends case the eyesight was on the borderline requirements.

I feel the Armed forces should do away with such stringent requirements for more people who wish to join.
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:44   #83
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Interesting discussion.
It would be a well rounded discussion though if folks from North East and J&K also pitch in with what they think about the armed forces and their gentlemen. As long as it doesnt slide into a political debate.
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:46   #84
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have the armed forces upped their efforts at attracting the brightest and the best because I am seeing quite a few TV and print adverts about joining the Air Force etc. these days that I hadn't noticed earlier?
noops, I have noticed a few adverts in recent times. I think it might be one of the strategies by Ministry of Defence to cope up with the shortage of officers in most Armed Forces that is being observed since past few years. I sincerely wish they up their budget for advertisements a wee bit more to target the audience even more!
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:46   #85
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"A Carrer in the Armed Forces is not JOB for money or worse. It is A WAY OF LIFE , quite unmatched anywhere"

Any ideas on how to join the armed forces Engineering division, Am interested to know about Engineering projects & administration - construction related stuff. Jai Hind!
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Old 11th January 2012, 12:59   #86
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From reading thru posts- not everyone pointing to difficulties or wrongs in the Army hates the Army or is poisonous toward them. When someone says that NDA Cadets sleep thru lectures, its the truth. likewhise- if you presume ragging is done to improve your character, mental and physical strength, you are wrong. If that be the case you should whip your children from the time they learn to walk- you will have Ninjas by the time they turn 21.
As in every profession, there are good and bad people, and then the system works. The TATAs espouse their manner of functioning, when their manager stands in front of me at the New Administrative Building, Pune trying to bribe a Govt Official into approving an access. Ketchup Colonels, and Land-Grab Generals exist everywhere. Weeding them out is a continuous process.
About the Army? You want to know how bad the system is, all you need to see is how many SO's and ADCs to the President, Service Chiefs, and Governors are in Service after their tenures.
You want to know the dangers- Cols being overlooked for Higher Command are the 'dead stock' and are those who will float around, the sycophant Cols who make it to HC are the bigger danger. The Poorest of the lot are the good Cols who got 'ragdaoed' in their ACRs and all those with relatives in the system can vouch for atleast 10+ such who then get superseded and then who quit. There needs to be a sure shot way of redressal to the ACR-Murder that happens, which to me seems to be the current loophole in preventing good Offrs from leaving the Uniform.
About shortages and other such, well, like every corporation, the Army too manages. When a war will be fought, we will not fight on three fronts. Offrs and Men on the warring axis will be supplemented by men and material from elsewhere. So not to worry about logistics.
I have family and friends from 32NDA and all the way to 118NDA. I grant all of them respect but I also question them when ketchup spills and child porn is found on the ArmyNet.
All said and done, its about as good a profession as any, and like Latheesh's signature- if you are passionate, join it.
KD
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Old 11th January 2012, 14:08   #87
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Ok I went though the links posted in the last page. I was not impressed by the figures. A fresher from an engineering college, medical college or management institute can easily get a better package. I agree that there are some long-term intangible benefits also, but the new generation doesn't care about those. They are more concerned about in-hand package.

The only thing that caught my attention was access to the military canteen, regarding which there is no clarity on how much discount is provided. Could someone throw some light on this ?

What disappointed me the most on reading the Army's website was the way they are ridiculing other professions. I don't mind Army blowing its own trumpet, but this kind of defamation of other professions is totally uncalled for. Is this an example of your gentleman behaviour and discipline ? How would you like if I were to defame your profession on my company's website ?

I have lost all respect towards Indian Army because of the following loose statements published on their website:

1. Lack of job satisfaction leads to tremendous frustration and results in job-hopping. Jobs in the civil world whether with the government or the corporate leave one with no alternate avenues if stuck with a frustrating portfolio or set up. On the contrary, the sheer variety, sense of purpose, responsibility and pride, negate any job dissatisfaction in the Army.

2. On one hand is a job with a thick pay packet but with the drudgery of 9AM to 9PM schedule, no avenues and time for extracurricular activities, no scope for adventure and excitement, no social status, lack of family life, threat of being terminated with a month’s salary, working in suffocating environment with no self respect and honour. On the other hand is a job which offers you challenge, adventure, excitement, honour, prestige, self respect, whole some family life, safety and security for the family and to top it all the love, respect and esteem of our great India. In the somewhat chaotic social and economic conditions that prevail in our country, Army life is an island of sanity and social order that is the envy of our countrymen. Quality of life is an important attribute of Army life, and has no parallel in any other service.

3. All of us have our own opinion about what constitutes “social status”. However it is an undisputed fact that the status of a ‘warrior’ has stood the test of time. History and society have both held the soldier in esteem and offered him a unique status in society. By joining the Army, one becomes a member of an exclusive and elite brotherhood, which is the envy of one and all.

4. Unlike in a civil environment where a posting means virtual uprooting of a household and starting a fresh new station, in the Army it is merely a change of scene. With more and more stations falling under the purview of peace stations and with better infrastructure facilities coming up even in small stations, the pangs of moving are speedily easing up.

5. That all professions serve our motherland – but none of them is in the same league as the Indian Army – for this is the only profession which affords you the opportunity to live up to these stirring lines.

All these statements are clear indication of the superiority complex of the Armed Forces.

I maintain my stand that all professions in the society are important. People from a particular profession should not pretend as if they are elite members of the society.

Rohan
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Old 11th January 2012, 14:25   #88
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It would be a well rounded discussion though if folks from North East and J&K also pitch in with what they think about the armed forces and their gentlemen. As long as it doesnt slide into a political debate.
+1, yes that would give a good perspective of how people look at the defense personnel (due to frequent interactions with them).

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Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil View Post
About the Army? You want to know how bad the system is, all you need to see is how many SO's and ADCs to the President, Service Chiefs, and Governors are in Service after their tenures.
You want to know the dangers- Cols being overlooked for Higher Command are the 'dead stock' and are those who will float around, the sycophant Cols who make it to HC are the bigger danger. The Poorest of the lot are the good Cols who got 'ragdaoed' in their ACRs and all those with relatives in the system can vouch for atleast 10+ such who then get superseded and then who quit.
I have family and friends from 32NDA and all the way to 118NDA. I grant all of them respect but I also question them when ketchup spills and child porn is found on the ArmyNet.
You have brought up a very valid point. Can people share their views on red-tapism and bureaucracy within armed forces, why does this arise ? The recent case of the Army chief also raises a few eyebrows, so a first hand experience from members here would be insightful.

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------
I maintain my stand that all professions in the society are important. People from a particular profession should not pretend as if they are elite members of the society.
Rohan, you are a brave boy, I like your fighting spirit !

Spike

PS- Guys, this topic is very interesting, it would be nice if members present their opinions rather than forcing their opinion on others.
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Old 11th January 2012, 14:39   #89
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All these statements are clear indication of the superiority complex of the Armed Forces.
I maintain my stand that all professions in the society are important. People from a particular profession should not pretend as if they are elite members of the society.
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BTW, that 'Bloody Civilian' thing is very common saying to have some light moments between friends, in most cases. I hope you understand the rearings of it. I do make fun of my friends in Army to some extent I would not like to explain here!
From what little I do understand about humour, it should be funny (or at least acceptable) to both parties involved. When it becomes offensive to one, the other should stop thinking its a joke. Well thats what a gentleman would do, wouldnt he? In this case, what Rohan says about a superiority complex could be true too.

While I agree that my friend is sacrificing a lot, it is because he is capable, willing and eligible to do so. I dont fulfil one or more of these criteria and choose to be a civilian. And there is no reason that can be shown as inferior to what he is doing. I believe I am contributing to the social and moral fabric of the country in my own way being a civilian. In essence our lives are not comparable and the activities should not be compared. More so when it is used to buttress an underlying superiority complex.

There are numerous other stories of clashes between army and police. Do we want to hijack this thread to discuss the underlying reasons for these incidents too?

In the same breath, I would like to add that I prefer the army trying to position itself as elite of society than the politicians.

Last edited by selfdrive : 11th January 2012 at 14:41.
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Old 11th January 2012, 14:49   #90
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Any ideas on how to join the armed forces Engineering division, Am interested to know about Engineering projects & administration - construction related stuff. Jai Hind!
Talking about Indian Army there are three areas:
1. Army Corps of Engineers - All combat engineering tasks (laying/clearing mines, demolitions, combat bridging etc.)
2. MES (Military Engineering Services) - Predominantly consists of civilians with a few deputed Army personnel from Corps of enggrs. They take care of all cantonment infrastructure.
3. Corps of EME (Electrical and Mechanical Enggrs.) - Take care of all vehicular maintenance etc.

You have to join the Army first (before or after your engg studies). If you join before; you will be studying your engg from CME (college of military engg) in Pune.
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