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Old 11th January 2012, 17:43   #106
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

But on a serious note, can not deny the fact that life in the army gives you a sense of purpose higher than ordinary jobs. Letting that get to your head kind of takes away some amount of respect. But still, I will not let actions of a few individuals dictate my opinion about an entire profession that is more noble than many.
Very Well said.

Knowing a few from the Armed Forces, I sure can relate to the difference discussed positively. Some times I just wonder at their discipline and outlook to many topics.
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:05   #107
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Try driving to work in any of the metro cities here. You'll realise we also face life threatening situations


I have a wonderful excuse. I live 10 minutes away from my office!
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:20   #108
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I have one question:-I use powered(just below 3 & shortsighted) lenses for vision enhancement and I am not quite sure whether I will be able to get through the medicals.
I wish to get into the Indian Navy,but still trying to convince my family members ,who are totally against it!
I was not even allowed to join the NCC!
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:24   #109
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This would be my last post on this thread.

I have put forward my views on the topic, I appreciate that some of you agreed, at least partially, to some of the points raised by me.

Jai Hind ! (I hope you don't mind a civilian saying Jai Hind)

Rohan
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:45   #110
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Hi Rohan,

Lets us just agree on one thing if it was not for honor , patriotism no one would have given up his life willingly.. And if it was not for these sacrifices you and me would still be working as slaves for some other countries rather than any having any option of a better life.
You might argue that they are getting compensated for that but I would like to think that they sacrifice their life for their country / honor rather than the monetary benefit..

That is the reason I feel pride in our armed forces. And I would happily salute them.
Show me anyone else who is willing to sacrifice his life for protecting his country and I would salute him too.

Last edited by Kool_Kid : 11th January 2012 at 18:54. Reason: removed OT refrence
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:46   #111
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Rohan - From your post I learned that you also contributed indirectly to safe guard our Nation and continue to do so by paying taxes. Please continue the discussion

Last edited by Latheesh : 11th January 2012 at 18:50.
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Old 11th January 2012, 18:59   #112
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The way i see it, military is a wasteful expenditure. An institution thrust upon mankind due to our inborn instinct to mark territory & maintain boundaries.

Tax payer's money is used to maintain this institution, take care of its personnel and wait for a war that will never come. War nowadays is MAD - mutually assured destruction - so no sensible 'equal' powers will engage in it. Only by the US of A on puny third world countries to impose 'democracy'.

And ofcourse, governments engage in brain-washing and media spin to get young men/women to enlist.

Glory? Honour? I see more of these in an ordinary Indian civilian's life, trying to make ends meet, give his/her children the best in life, and still have enough courage to smile in the face of adversity and gut wrenching poverty.

Last edited by WindRide : 11th January 2012 at 19:07.
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Old 11th January 2012, 19:41   #113
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Default Re: Joining The Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by Patriot_Vishwas View Post
I have one question:-I use powered(just below 3 & shortsighted) lenses for vision enhancement and I am not quite sure whether I will be able to get through the medicals.
I wish to get into the Indian Navy,but still trying to convince my family members ,who are totally against it!
I was not even allowed to join the NCC!
Technically, with lenses you will not be able to clear the medical tests. I would suggest you to get your eye sight corrected surgically before you go ahead with your NDA/CDS exams. Nandu sir might be of some help for you to get into Indian Navy.

About your parents, convincing them depends upon your will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
The way i see it, military is a wasteful expenditure. An institution thrust upon mankind due to our inborn instinct to mark territory & maintain boundaries.

Tax payer's money is used to maintain this institution, take care of its personnel and wait for a war that will never come. War nowadays is MAD - mutually assured destruction - so no sensible 'equal' powers will engage in it. Only by the US of A on puny third world countries to impose 'democracy'.

And ofcourse, governments engage in brain-washing and media spin to get young men/women to enlist.

Glory? Honour? I see more of these in an ordinary Indian civilian's life, trying to make ends meet, give his/her children the best in life, and still have enough courage to smile in the face of adversity and gut wrenching poverty.
On grounds of humanity, what you say is quite true. In terms of real life, can we really afford not to have defence services? I do not think so. The world is a cruel place, buddy; and it is made so by us only, the humans.

Two faces of the same wall, I guess. Its like saying it would have been better if the wheel and automobiles were not invented! We could at least not have the zillion causalities in road accidents! I hope you get the drift.

The point of this thread is to provide guidance by respective members to those aspirants who are willing to join India's Armed Forces.

Last edited by Ace F355 : 11th January 2012 at 19:44.
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Old 11th January 2012, 19:41   #114
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Originally Posted by Ace F355 View Post
Nandu, Fauji and Neel, can we have some insight about approx. figures on in-hand salaries please?
The pay at hand depends on the service as well as your rank. The pay structure after the 6th Pay Commission has been revised into Pay Bands as for the central government officers. A jist of the basic pay is given below:
Rank Pay Band ()
Lt. to Major 15,600-39,100 (PB-3)
Lt. Col to Maj Gen 37,400-67,000(PB-4)
Lt. 67,000-(annual increment @ 3%)-79.000
VCOAS/Army Cdr/Lt. Gen 80,000/- (Fixed)
(NFSG) COAS 90,000/- (Fixed)

In addition to this, there is a grade pay which is :

Lt. 5400/-
Capt 6100/-
Maj 6600/-
Lt. Col 8000/-
Col. 8700/-
Brig. 8900/-
Maj. Gen. 10000/-

In addition to this, there is Military Service Pay which is fixed at Rs 6000 for all officers.

Add Dearness Allowance to the Basic Pay which today stands at 52% of the basic pay.

There are various other allowances such as flying allowance, transportation allowance, kit maintenance allowance etc.

To sum it all up, a flyer in the IAF starts with a pay package of close to Rs 7 lakh PA.

Last edited by GTO : 12th January 2012 at 14:45. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 11th January 2012, 19:44   #115
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Am I right in assuming you are an IIT grad from your handle? If so, the stock of IIT has dropped considerably in my book after reading your irreverent post.
I'm afraid but if you were to drop the stock of IIT considerably based on one dissenting post (even if challenging the thread), then I would humbly request you to read my signature. the fact is that there may be thousands of faceless nameless quiet rohans out there. For nandu saab's noble initiative to succeed, it is important to answer the rohans of the world convincingly to sell an AF career much better than it is done now. Your response does nothing for the cause unfortunately. If pedigree causes prejudice because of one dissenting post, please drop IITD and IIMA in your book for this post of mine as well

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Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
Worth caliberating. There is so much venom in the two posts that he has made.
So what - why not counter him logically than label his disagreeing posts as venom? The guys who don't need convincing are already sold. The point is to convince those that may be on the fence, na? Why not convince him logically as a test case - the rest of the masses would anyday be easier na?

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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
You will see the difference between an IIT grad and a NDA grad if left in the middle of a jungle without any support, or any adverse condition for that matter.

I am not saying it happens every day, I am not saying it will never happen, and I am not a D-day fanatic either. I am just trying to clarify what differentiates boys from men.
Since this is a thread about convincing people practically - let's leave hyperbolic rhetoric outside the room, shall we? But I must give you a pop quiz- Who is the fastest to do the 7 summits from India? (and purportedly the world?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
A lot of interesting points have been put forth in this thread so far and Rohan's points seem to be the most belligerent. While a lot of plausible counter arguments (by many non-faugis as well) have already been put up, let me add another dimention to this argument on certain points which I feel have not been suitably answered yet.

For the record, I am not trying to belittle any one's point of view, but, trying to ensure that any reader gets a whole some perspective into what the services stand for and hence are better informed and hopefully a bit motivated to encourage people to join the AF.

Actually, the armed forces provide a whole lot of things that can be called "quality of life", but the major problem in penning it down is that most of it is inanimate. Let me try and put it this way, there is no other service which trains you to be an officer and a gentleman. There is only so much that money can buy. The rest needs to be imbibed. The services provide you with an opportunity to do just that. And if one spends sufficient time and energy just being alive and recipient in this environment, you change as a person. You enjoy things in life that would go un-noticed otherwise. The same rubs down to your family and those around you. To put it simply, you find more "quality" in "life". Apart from this major yet often overlooked perk, the others such as clubs, CDS etc have already been mentioned.
Much appreciated your useful and calm-headed point-wise response to rohan. Interesting point on the 9Gs though - yum!

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Originally Posted by goandude View Post
No it does not negate the negatives. It has been put up to tell people that everything is not rosy, if you can adjust to the thorny side then OK, you will have a great life but if you (or your spouse) cannot, then getting off could be sticky.
Thanks again for keeping the discussion grounded (esp around the spouse part!!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace F355 View Post
BBR_SHR

I understand what you mean and I tend to agree with you. With such a huge number of people available at our country's disposal, our Army's workforce is also quite large. I agree other ranks may not get all the benefits similar to officer ranks; but rest assured their lives are still good enough.

One of my distant cousin sister is married to one such guy, a Naib Subedar in Indian Army. The guy is from countryside, and I am darn sure he is still doing well and good compared to his friends/colleagues from his village. The only problem according to him is, he is posted to a distant location and he can't move his family along with him. His vacations also do not compensate for all the hard work he puts in. But ask him whether he is happy about his job or not, and the smile tells you rest of the story.
That is an interesting perspective because BBR_SHR actually raised a very valid point - because honestly this thread so far seemed to talk about the starry side - every job has the quiet foot soldiers (be it the guys BBR mentioned, or the IT guy quietly writing one little bit of code for a big software) and it's good if the discussion revolves around those people as well (esp what Ace wrote in bold above - emphasis mine). that's another perspective I have recently come to appreciate after learning to see the world throught he eyes of true villagers (no, not Millenium villagers!!).

That said, I want to put another parallel or dissenting voice (depending on the reader's perception) forward. I personally respect scientists who do apex research more and here's why:
- AF careers do offer a substantially better quality of life and lifestyle
- Financially, I'm not sure whether the perks of an armyman's life will be much better than those in any pure science but i would reckon so.
- Throughout MOST of the career (except beyond a certain stage), the AF person will receive far more respect from all quarters
- Lastly, and most importantly, the scientist who designs the Agni missile or the LCA or the eye-in-the-sky satellite has as much a decisive impact on the ground as the brave AF guy flying them. Technological edge has often been as decisive as valor in the battlefield.
- Maybe i've seen too many movies but I don't think our top scientists recieve that sort of safety net that our top military men do - on a whole, not talking about the likes of Kalam.

No prizes for guessing my inclinations - I never had any remote desire to get into the armed forces. I did have a fascination for a pure science career at some stage but it petered away somewhere. Infact, I remember among the 35 folks who qualified for the National Physics Olympiad 2000, only one chose a career in physics. Similar was for the National Chemistry Olympiad 2000.

Monetary considerations drive career choices for a lot of young minds and as I said in my 1st post, that needs to be addressed. And addressed for both armed forces as well as pure sciences, in my opinion. I'd be glad if I see such a thread for pure sciences some day as well.

Last edited by phamilyman : 11th January 2012 at 19:55.
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Old 11th January 2012, 20:03   #116
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Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
Glory? Honour? I see more of these in an ordinary Indian civilian's life, trying to make ends meet, give his/her children the best in life, and still have enough courage to smile in the face of adversity and gut wrenching poverty.
you're able to say these things because you are in the comfort of the protection provided by our soldiers guarding our borders.

cause they stand on a wall and say: nothing's gonna hurt you tonight..
- A Few Good Men

one shouldn't take one's freedom for granted. it has come at a price - the lives of many who swore to protect this country.

i should have joined the Army when i had the chance if i could turn back time and start over again, i would join the Infantry without skipping a heartbeat.
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Old 11th January 2012, 20:03   #117
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I am surprised this thread has gone to 8 pages and there is has been a terrific debate for and against us in the Armed Forces.

My intention was just to create an awareness about a career in the AF as a career option.

The thread has become sour and some posts have gone virulent against us AF personell as if we are the enemies of the State of India ranged against other professionals.

I was tempted to tell the moderators to delete this thread given the emotions for and against the Armed Forces.

I was hoping for a Q and A but most regretfully this thread has become a serious embarassment to our Armed Forces and our Officers and Men who serve this country with distinction.

My aim was very simple. Do consider Armed Forces as a career option. I had no intention of deriding other professionals who contribute to the Nation Building effort. We are an EXPENDITURE ACCOUNT we dont earn profits for the Nations. The massive defence budget HAS NEVER been debated in Parliament and passed without a whimper. This is the tax payers money and is almost 60 % of the budget. Yes it costs a lot to maintain, clothe, equip, feed us ! We are one of you and NOT some elite entities masqerading around with a holier than thou attidtude.

I am partly to blame deriding Bill Gates which was in a different context.

Will come back when sanity rules. But for now I do feel demoralised ! What the hell tomorrow is another day.

Last edited by nanduchitnis : 11th January 2012 at 20:17.
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Old 11th January 2012, 20:11   #118
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When I joined the navy in 1980 I got home 800/- per month (no, its not a typo and petrol was Rs 5/lit). today gross is 1.4 L per month

Last edited by GTO : 12th January 2012 at 14:47. Reason: Removing broken quote
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Old 11th January 2012, 20:27   #119
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Originally Posted by Ace F355 View Post
In terms of real life, can we really afford not to have defence services? I do not think so....
Did i say anywhere in my post that we can do away with the military? I did NOT. It is necessary. Sadly a necessary expenditure. Fact remains it is draining on our resources, especially for a third world country like ours.

Sorry buddy, i don't share your enthusiasm to a life in military. A life based on brain washing and jingoism.

Iam an engineer,and i believe true glory of war is at an engineer's work bench.

What made CNN viewing 'awesome' (for some) during the Gulf war was the result of countless hours devoted by engineers at their work to create superlative weapons, not because of some unforturnate brain-washed young man sent to his certain death and acting out a glorified 'loyalty' drilled into his sub-conciousness.

Because once the war is over and done with, the engineer is never praised publicly as much as the military is. Why? Because the recruitment drive for soldiers must continue, life in the forces must be hyped, and more young men and women should be attracted to join its ranks. That's why.

The business of war is more about engineering and less about bravery. Ask Northrop Grumman, Boeing, et al. They will tell you. At the progress we are making, engineering will one day make it possible to wage a war with bare minimum loss of lives on the aggressor's side. God save the poor victims though. Everything gets 'directed' from inside a bunker.

Science fiction? Maybe today. But engineering will take us there someday.

Last edited by WindRide : 11th January 2012 at 20:31.
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Old 11th January 2012, 20:28   #120
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Thanks Neel and goandude for the responses on in-hand salary queries. I had a talk with one of my buddies, he is a Lt. and his take home stands at approx. 58,000 per month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanduchitnis View Post
I am surprised this thread has gone to 8 pages and there is has been a terrific debate for and against us in the Armed Forces.

My intention was just to create an awareness about a career in the AF as a career option.

The thread has become sour and some posts have gone virulent against us AF personell as if we are the enemies of the State of India ranged against other professionals.

I was tempted to tell the moderators to delete this thread given the emotions for and against the Armed Forces.

I was hoping for a Q and A but most regretfully this thread has become a serious embarassment to our Armed Forces and our Officers and Men who serve this country with distinction.

My aim was very simple. Do consider Armed Forces as a career option. I had no intention of deriding other professionals who contribute to the Nation Building effort. We are an EXPENDITURE ACCOUNT we dont earn profits for the Nations. The massive defence budget HAS NEVER been debated in Parliament and passed without a whimper. This is the tax payers money and is almost 60 % of the budget. Yes it costs a lot to maintain, clothe, equip, feed us ! We are one of you and NOT some elite entities masqerading around with a holier than thou attidtude.

I am partly to blame deriding Bill Gates which was in a different context.

Will come back when sanity rules. But for now I do feel demoralised ! What the hell tomorrow is another day.
Nandu Sir

If I may, I would like you to take this discussion in a positive way. I agree with phamilyman and quoting his words below.

The point is to convince those that may be on the fence, na? Why not convince him logically as a test case

No matter Rohan is convinced or not, the discussion has lead the other Rohan alike youngsters out there to read and take out conclusions. If even one of these Rohans is convinced, my idea of this discussion is fulfilled.

A few people's ignorance can not take away the fact that we are what we are because hundreds of thousands of those brave soldiers have given up their lives for us. We stand tall because of you guys and I appreciate Armed Forces to safeguard the borders of our great country.

Lets keep the spirit of this noble initiative high...

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Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
Did i say anywhere in my post that we can do away with the military? I did NOT. It is necessary. Sadly a necessary expenditure. Fact remains it is draining on our resources, especially for a third world country like ours.

Sorry buddy, i don't share your enthusiasm to a life in military. A life based on brain washing and jingoism.

Iam an engineer,and i believe true glory of war is at an engineer's work bench.

What made CNN viewing 'awesome' (for some) during the Gulf war was the result of countless hours devoted by engineers at their work to create superlative weapons, not because of some unforturnate brain-washed young man sent to his certain death and acting out a glorified 'loyalty' drilled into his sub-conciousness.

Because once the war is over and done with, the engineer is never praised publicly as much as the military is. Why? Because the recruitment drive for soldiers must continue, life in the forces must be hyped, and more young men and women should be attracted to join its ranks. That's why.

The business of war is more about engineering and less about bravery. Ask Northrop Grumman, Boeing, et al. They will tell you. At the progress we are making, engineering will one day make it possible to wage a war with bare minimum loss of lives on the aggressor's side. God save the poor victims though. Everything gets 'directed' from inside a bunker.

Science fiction? Maybe today. But engineering will take us there someday.
WindRide

Your POV on a war is quite interesting. Also, you may not share the equal enthusiasm like me, but at least you realize the importance of Military, Air Force and Navy in today's world. Look in older posts and you will find me advocating the importance of other staff equally. After all, one is dependent on the other.

One can't ignore the importance of Bofors and MiG-21s in Kargil conflict. Afterall, they were engineered goods and I appreciate their engineering. But was the war engineered too? NO!!! The fact is, our very own piece of land was intruded, machines helped us winning the war but the real heroes were those who fought the war with those machines and got us our pride back. Machines could be built and bought, those who died could never come back.

I hate to use the punchline, but I completely agree with Jack Nicholson when he says in A Few Good Men;

We live in a World that has walls and those walls have to be guarded by the men with guns!, unfortunate but true!

The hard fact is, the business of war is about the both, The men and the machines!

Last edited by Ace F355 : 11th January 2012 at 20:57.
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