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Old 6th November 2013, 11:34   #106
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Well, sometimes knowledge has to be pursued for it's own sake; to expand the envelope, so to speak. If it is to be done only after all the poverty in the country is alleviated, it can't be done at all. There is a saying in Tamil which goes "If you wait for all the waves to disappear before taking a dip in the sea, you never will!"

The technology provides many spin offs which are useful in everyday life, I hear! And may be in the not too distant future, colonizing another planet or at least mining it for minerals is a distinct possibility.

But what can be done is instead of all the countries spending money independently to reinvent the wheel, all of them can pool the resources for space research.
I agree with pursuing knowledge for its own sake. What I'm saying here it that with the current space programs very little new knowledge is aquired. At best it is more learning what others already know.

And with the current space programs we are never ever going to colonize other planets or mine minerals. There is nothing in the space programs that even remotely suggests that anybody is taking that serious. There is no long term view and certainly no long term commitment in dedicating resources (including very, very , very substantial) budgets to this goal.

All current space exploration programs still cost a lot and bring us very little in terms of advancing along the lines you mention. The spinn offs that you mention are true, but could have been developped stand alone as well.

I'm a strong believer in doing things right or just don't do them at all. I'm not saying at all that you need to solve poverty first. There are other global problems that are at least as urgent.

Jeroen
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Old 6th November 2013, 13:08   #107
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Default Re: About Rocket Science & Engines

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"If you wait for all the waves to disappear before taking a dip in the sea, you never will!"
But what can be done is instead of all the countries spending money independently to reinvent the wheel, all of them can pool the resources for space research.
+1

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Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post

Sending a satellite to Mars and showcasing to the world that you have 'arrived' is fine, but why does the Head of a prestigious organization like ISRO have to visit temples to pray that everything goes fine?

Frankly, the whole act to me looks no better than a truck driver hanging lemon/chillies on his truck for good luck!
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It is funny that in modern society black magic, good luck charms etc are labelled as superstitious practices, but being religious is not!!

What a contradiction!
Did you know that its afterall an engineer/scientist (just by mere qualification) who is behind all this inventions and that human being has a heart and believes in something. So let us please not intervene into their beliefs. If they want to believe something, let them, as long as it is not forced on others I feel its ok.
- Did you know that Americans eat peanuts and keep dolls near their working consoles during launches? Some even wear "lucky" shirts!
- Russians urinate around the base of the Soyuz launch pad before every manned mission!
- How is something when done by a western/russian is ok whereas when an ISRO scientist goes to temple, we go hoo haa about it! Please, let us not get into commenting about somebody's beliefs (as long as its not utter superstitious like jumping into fire or asking his subordinate to do so!)

IMHO, being a rocket scientist doesn't warrant one not to be religious. I personally don't write my religion or believe in religion, but, when others do, let them!

Just a quote: "If truth requires evidence, what will evidence that evidence?."— Swami Vivekananda

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What I'm saying here it that with the current space programs very little new knowledge is aquired. At best it is more learning what others already know.
NO. Your answer is valid only to the current context and not with "ALL space missions". What about Voyagers I & II, Pioneer I & II, Herschel telescope, Goche, GRACE, Hubble, Chandra X-ray telescope? I can keep on giving you missions! and many more are coming.

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And with the current space programs we are never ever going to colonize other planets or mine minerals. There is nothing in the space programs that even remotely suggests that anybody is taking that serious. There is no long term view and certainly no long term commitment in dedicating resources (including very, very , very substantial) budgets to this goal.
All current space exploration programs still cost a lot and bring us very little in terms of advancing along the lines you mention. The spinn offs that you mention are true, but could have been developped stand alone as well.
If you are not going to take it personally let me tell you something: I am feeling sorry to hear such a statement from someone of your caliber. Let us keep this discussion off this thread as we will deviate ourselves away from the topic if we do so. I request you to kindly inform yourself even better about the space programs and their influence over other fields.

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I'm a strong believer in doing things right or just don't do them at all. I'm not saying at all that you need to solve poverty first. There are other global problems that are at least as urgent.

Jeroen
Right, I fully concur with your statement 1. Can you name some other "Global" problems which are urgent? Nothing offensive meant here, but just that I guess I am not informed about the worldly problems.

Ok, back to topic. I am going to continue from where I left, the intergalactic travel will start soon.

Last edited by AlphaKilo : 6th November 2013 at 13:17. Reason: Grammer
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Old 6th November 2013, 13:48   #108
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Ok, back to topic. I am going to continue from where I left, the intergalactic travel will start soon.
Ok, a few questions;

I understand the Mars craft is right now orbiting the earth; not in a perfect circle, but with a closest and farthest point. That the onboard rockets will be fired on a daily basis to increase the orbit and the speed, before it is injected on course to Mars. Will the firings take place at the closest point or at the farthest point?

How will orbiting the earth for a month increase the craft's velocity to escape velocity?

This is an unrelated query. I remember reading some science fiction long back, in which an asteroid is captured, it's innards hollowed out and outfitted as an inter galactic space ship. Is it possible, even if not today?
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Old 6th November 2013, 14:12   #109
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Ok, a few questions;
Will the firings take place at the closest point or at the farthest point?
Cross-posting from an earlier post of mine, hope it answers your question: (closest: Perigee/Periapsis & Farthest: Apogee/Apoapsis)

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There are two different escapes,

1. reaching a LEO/MEO/GEO

2. Escaping out of Earth's sphere of influence

Recent analysis from the launch of TDRS(NASA) satellites and Galileo (European Navi. sat reaching for MEO) are arguing that more than perigee boost, apogee boost is fuel efficient. I am not sure about this though, but will add the info as and when I come across that.
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How will orbiting the earth for a month increase the craft's velocity to escape velocity?
Again, from an earlier post:

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Previously we have learned about Hohmann transfer, now adding one more method to called "Gravity-assist". What is this? Lets see what does Wiki says:
Idea how gravity assist works:

Over-simplified example of gravitational slingshot: the spacecraft's velocity changes by up to twice the planet's velocity

The gravitational slingshot technique uses the gravity of planets and moons to change the speed and direction of a spacecraft without using fuel. In typical example, a spacecraft is sent to a distant planet on a path that is much faster than what the Hohmann transfer would call for. This would typically mean that it would arrive at the planet's orbit and continue past it. However, if there is a planet between the departure point and the target, it can be used to bend the path toward the target, and in many cases the overall travel time is greatly reduced. A prime example of this are the two crafts of the Voyager program, which used slingshot effects to change trajectories several times in the outer Solar System. It is difficult to use this method for journeys in the inner part of the Solar System, although it is possible to use other nearby planets such as Venus or even the Moon as slingshots in journeys to the outer planets.
This maneuver can only change an object's velocity relative to a third, uninvolved object, – possibly the “centre of mass” or the Sun. There is no change in the velocities of the two objects involved in the maneuver relative to each other. The Sun cannot be used in a gravitational slingshot because it is stationary compared to rest of the Solar System, which orbits the Sun. It may be used to send a spaceship or probe into the galaxy because the Sun rotates around the center of the Milky Way.



Some fantastic read: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/video/pro...tationsSlides/
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This is an unrelated query. I remember reading some science fiction long back, in which an asteroid is captured, it's innards hollowed out and outfitted as an inter galactic space ship. Is it possible, even if not today?
Asteroids: Its nothing but a flying dust/rock/collection of small rocks. They vary in properties. So, answer is no.

Even if it could be modified, how will it be powered? Engine? Source of thrust? once you capture it and remodify it, you either make the flying object stationary or fly along with it. In former case, I would prefer to fly a proper spaceship than a remodelled flying rock (like our TNSTC/MTC buses, always rebuilt) and in the latter case, the problem is asteroids fly in an hyperbolic orbit, so you never know where you will end up. One cannot do any orbital corrections, and to do so, you need some propulsion systems.

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Old 6th November 2013, 14:23   #110
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Default Re: About Rocket Science & Engines

^^ Thanks! Perigee / apogee means nearest and farthest, I suppose!

In that story, the asteroid is hollowed out, a habitation and massive engines are built in to it. Many generations live in it before they reach another star system!
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Old 6th November 2013, 21:45   #111
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+1
Uh, what are we counting?

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
NO. Your answer is valid only to the current context and not with "ALL space missions". What about Voyagers I & II, Pioneer I & II, Herschel telescope, Goche, GRACE, Hubble, Chandra X-ray telescope? I can keep on giving you missions! and many more are coming.
I am talking about the current space programs and not the past ones. So we agree!

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
If you are not going to take it personally let me tell you something: I am feeling sorry to hear such a statement from someone of your caliber. Let us keep this discussion off this thread as we will deviate ourselves away from the topic if we do so. I request you to kindly inform yourself even better about the space programs and their influence over other fields.
I'm not sure what a caliber is? Apparently mine has become less or gone missing or something. Must be something on your side of the Internet because nothing has changed for me!

I'm not as scientist, but I do meet quite a few of them. Professionally and privately. In fact, part of my current job is to keep some sort of feel with the scientific community at large and see what and how we could make use of some of the scientific fundamental research and finding into my Industry.

To that affect I get to spent two weeks a year at various top notch scientific research institutes and I have just returned from a week in the USA on such a fact finding mission. This year one of the themes was to understand how to advance science, fundamental research into concrete projects/programs with tangible results. You can look at a wide variety of different Super Program over the last say fifty years. Manhattan Project, Apollo Program, Deltaworks, the large Hadron Collider etc etc.

All these programs had very concrete, tangible goals. All lacked, at the start, the basic fundamental scientific insights on how to make it work. All these programs took monumental investments in money and resources. The key being to bring just about every discipline from the scientific world and engineering world together and let them figure it out. All of these have been monumental undertakings.

When we talk about real space exploration in terms of mining or even "colonizing" other planets it's going to require an effort several orders of magnitude larger than any of the aforementioned programs together. Nothing like that is happening today.

I have had the pleasure of visiting NASA facilities during the last three decades in both a professional and personal capacity. I have also had a few professional run ins with ESA/ESTEC. The first Adrianna rockets used flight computers derived from the CPU from Telecom Switches! (Little known anorak fact, but there you go).

I've also lectured, many years ago, at ESA/ESTEC. And believe it or not, was party to some last minute trouble shooting prior the launch of an actual rocket that was going to put a European Satellite into orbit. My home phone was patched into launch control for 90 minutes whilst we figured it out. We made the launch with minutes to spare! Was good fun!

So I'm far from an expert, but I do know and meet a lot of people in this "space" pardon the pun. In the last decade I haven't met a single professional in this field who's is not totally frustrated by the lack of vision and leadership by those in power and how badly it has affected our space exploration. Budgets have only been slashed. It has become very difficult to get funding for space program that aspire scientific achievements. You can always get money to built the military a rocket or to put somebodies weather/GPS/TV/Spy satellite in space. And I wouldn't discount some of the scientific achievements it probably has taken, but it is of a very different order of magnitude then what I'm thinking of.

I am reasonable aware of how our understanding of the beginning of the universe and how our mind works are actually related. And certainly how some of the fundamental scientific insights in both are closely related. But still, it can be debated what kind of space exploration is needed.

You get a group of astrophysicist together and ask them this question:

If you could pick one of the following two, to advance your research, which would you pick:
- tenfold the budget on space exploration
- tenfold the computation power you have at your disposal

You'd be surprised, well at least I was. They don't need much of their observations done from space apparently. At least the ones I spoke with.

So, I'm not discounting what has been achieved, but I am, like quite a few reputable names in this particular industry questioning whether it is worthwhile pursuing if done at such a relative small scale. That's all I'm saying, nothing else. In my business we will always goes for the max, number one. If we can't achieve that we'll do something differently all together. Either put your back into it, or just don't do it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Right, I fully concur with your statement 1. Can you name some other "Global" problems which are urgent? Nothing offensive meant here, but just that I guess I am not informed about the worldly problems.

Ok, back to topic. I am going to continue from where I left, the intergalactic travel will start soon.
I'm truly sorry, but if you are not aware of any urgent Global problems, me spelling them out wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. I'm truly sorry for you that you have no such notion. Or perhaps a case of ignorance is bliss? I really don't know.

In the mean time, on the intergalactic travel I suggest you read Ben Elton's brilliant book "Stark". It's a good combination of an urgent Gobal problem and a few people get into their rockets and move into space. You're going to love it.

Jeroen
PS: I'm still looking for that caliber, but nothing missing on this end!
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Old 6th November 2013, 22:15   #112
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I'm not sure what a caliber is? ...
Quote:
I'm truly sorry, ...
Mailed you my answers for not wanting to grab the attention of our mods.

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So, I'm not discounting what has been achieved, but I am, like quite a few reputable names in this particular industry questioning whether it is worthwhile pursuing if done at such a relative small scale...
Colonizing planets? Do we really know what is there in all the planets or even in Mars (just an example)? To know, we cannot just land there and start building empires, rather explore firsthand robotically or by orbiting around. I see that you know the trade better than me, so I am not digging into this point anymore.

Relative to what? You yourself know how the world reacts to some of the spendings done by the space industry (even at this small scale) and do you think the world (tax payers) are going to accept if the scale is, lets say twin folded?

If something that big(groundbreaking) is to be achieved, then there has to be relevant technology and resources available to make that possible. If only we had super computers, we wouldn't need to fly to other places for our businesses, we could simply virtualize and share the screens or do video conferencing, leaving the whole aviation industry redundant and only for tourism and hobby purposes!

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But still, it can be debated what kind of space exploration is needed.
That is exactly what I was trying to put forth. I don't see a point in discussing on this anymore here.

Quote:
In the mean time, on the intergalactic travel I suggest you read Ben Elton's brilliant book "Stark". It's a good combination of an urgent Gobal problem and a few people get into their rockets and move into space. You're going to love it.
Thanks! Nice to see another person with similar interests. I have read that book.

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Old 7th November 2013, 11:40   #113
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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
- Did you know that Americans eat peanuts and keep dolls near their working consoles during launches? Some even wear "lucky" shirts!
- Russians urinate around the base of the Soyuz launch pad before every manned mission!
- How is something when done by a western/russian is ok whereas when an ISRO scientist goes to temple, we go hoo haa about it! Please, let us not get into commenting about somebody's beliefs (as long as its not utter superstitious like jumping into fire or asking his subordinate to do so!)
That is because we never knew this!
And my post was quite generic in asking why is it that goodluck charms are considered as superstition (and thus covers the idiotic actions of Americans and Russians) but religious actions (and hence covers the praying in temples) are not.

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Just a quote: "If truth requires evidence, what will evidence that evidence?."— Swami Vivekananda
*Sigh*
I obviously would not want to say anything that would offend the followers of Swami Viveknand and invite their endless ire.

Appeal to authority does work in the arguments under social context!

***

I am with you, the thread is about rockets and space travel ...

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Old 7th November 2013, 12:28   #114
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Apologies, if I am breaking the flow of this thread. Good to know that there are a lot of space-buffs on this forum. One of my favourite pastimes is watching shuttle launch videos on Youtube.
Two of my favourites.



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Old 7th November 2013, 13:20   #115
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*Sigh*
I obviously would not want to say anything that would offend the followers of Swami Viveknand and invite their endless ire.
I never said I follow him. Just a nice quote. Good things should be taken from every where. Infact, I like one another quote of his:
"An ounce of work is better than tonnes of tall talks."

I already said that I concur with your views, infact we both are on the same side and fighting for the same cause.

My only point was why should we comment on what an individual does, if he believes praying helps him perform well, fine let him do so and as long as he is not asking you and me to pray, why should we be bothered about it.

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I am with you, the thread is about rockets and space travel ...
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Good to know that there are a lot of space-buffs on this forum. One of my favourite pastimes is watching shuttle launch videos on Youtube.
Two of my favourites.
Apparently, the NASA.tv is finally back and running.

http://www.nasa-usa.de/multimedia/nasatv/



Expedition 38 crew has gone up to relieve the current team and this new team has taken the olympic torch along with them! I guess after 1996 olympic torch (flew with shuttle Atlanta), its only now the torch is going up.

Interesting will be to see how will they light up the torch. ISS is an controlled oxygen/CO2 rich (fire suppression) environment and has several fire detection systems on-board.

The next gen shuttle(test prototype) has finally made its first autonomous landing (albeit a glitch):



ESA is planning to map the whole milky-way in 3D and how are they planning to do it?

http://www.spacenews.com/video/video-gaia-technology

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Old 7th November 2013, 17:29   #116
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[quote=green_wheel;3286560]Apologies, if I am breaking the flow of this thread. Good to know that there are a lot of space-buffs on this forum. One of my favourite pastimes is watching shuttle launch videos on Youtube.
Two of my favourites.
[quote]

Very impressive video's. It's one of those things on my bucket list. Watch a rocket launch live. Never have, always on TV or these days youtube.

I visited Kennedy Space Centre several times in the hey-days of the shutlle area. Not sure how much is left of the infrastructure, but initially they were using a lot of the infrastructure of the Apollo Program, launch pads, the crawlers etc. It is truly on a mind boggling scale! If you ever find yourself in the USA try and go see of the NASA related fascilities.

Here's a good overview: http://www.visitnasa.com/

There is an awfull lot to see an do. The above are just the NASA sites. But across the USA there are plenty of other places where you can see an impressive display of Space related stuff.

One of the very first solo flights I made as a pilot was from Kansas City to Wichita. At the FBO I noticed a poster about this museum: http://www.cosmo.org/museum.cfm. Borrowed a car and drove over there, amazing collection of actual spacecraft that had actually been into space, including the Gemini capsule Liberty bell 7, that sunk on return to earth, but was recovered succesfully years later. http://www.evergreenexhibitions.com/...st_spacecraft/

Although the Apollo program was much more impressive, I've always had a soft spot for the Gemini program. It was even more so, then the Apollo program, a true hero's program. Some of the US best (test) pilots got into these amazing little capsules and rocketed into space. Hard core "right Stuff".

If you ever find yourself in my home country, the Netherlands, you are very likely to go and see the Keukenhof with all its tullips and flowers. (http://www.keukenhof.nl/) We're very famous for it. Literally next door to it is the space expo, (http://www.spaceexpo.nl/) which is very much about the European space exploration. ESTEC has a huge fascility right there as well.

Plenty to see and explore, but admittedly, the USA outshine every other nation in this respect. (museums, displays, tours etc)

Enjoy,

Jeroen

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Old 8th November 2013, 01:25   #117
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Going by what I read on this thread , it would be safe to assume the automotive industry has not moved much, we have the same DI systems , electric hybrids, battery technology - from the 1800s.

I was wondering where did the material technology and some of the light weight concepts currently used in automotive industry seep down from ?

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Old 8th November 2013, 08:06   #118
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Going by what I read on this thread , it would be safe to assume the automotive industry has not moved much, we have the same DI systems , electric hybrids, battery technology - from the 1800s.

I was wondering where did the material technology and some of the light weight concepts currently used in automotive industry seep down from ?

Cheers
Spike
Interesting question,I'm not sure, probably very similar to many other industries I would think. You look around the world, keep track of developments in other industries and see what you could use and adapt, you improve on the works of others and some of it is undoubtedly the industry own thinking and research.

Lot of the work on engine development, diesel and petrol, in the areas of performance improvement and emission control has been driven by the automative industry themselves. But the electronics to help them do, come from a different industry all together.

Aerodynamics is a big thing in automative design. And undoubtedly they look at the aviation industry, space industry, but also v.v.

Pretty advanced ABS systems were used in the aviation industry long before they were used in automative industry. But traction control and stability system, I would think, probably came from the automative industry. But themselves. In order to make it work they do rely and make use of other industries (mainly electronics)

Another pretty innovative part of the automative industry is of course: tires. Bit of the unsung automotive hero. We don't' think much about it. But the advancements in tire design, materials etc over several decades has been impressive. Again, probably not only due to the automotive industry, some of this gets used in aviation as well. But if anything the automotive industry is the largest buyer of tires I would think?

On the light weight concept: Whereas in aviation and space exploration light weight concept have been one of the top design criteria from more or less day one in their respective industries, light weight did not become a criteria for the automotive industry until probably some 15 years ago. Primarily driven, I would think, by ultimately emission reduction and to some extent performance. So the automotive industry "borrowed heavily" from aviation to get started, but these days those automative companies that use it on a big scale have built a lot of in-house knowledge on materials, production, extrussion techniques etc.

Very few industries really push the boundaries of fundamental research. I can only think of a view that do it on a relative (compared to other industries) large scale:
- Bio-medical industry
- Space industry at large
- aviation to some extent

just my 2cents!

Jeroen
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Old 12th November 2013, 07:28   #119
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I've been traveling and haven't kept up to date with news, but I just came across this article on the Indian Mars mission:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24900271

Lets hope they get it all under control, this early into the flight not a good omen.

Jeroen
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Old 12th November 2013, 11:12   #120
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Thankfully things are normal again: http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...1-1150099.aspx
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