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Old 10th October 2012, 23:47   #16
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Hi...
This is my story...
Do tell me your views so that I can cope with this blunder made by HR.

EDIT : I am open to new appointment letter with less salary, but the new letter must be of Oct, 2012 and not Aug 2012.
There are two ways in which this can be done.

This new offer/appointment letter has same pay mentioned as you were given? If yes then I don't think they are framing you, they are just trying to cover up for the Audit.

Option 1

Resign from this Job, don't sign any papers & sit idle for a while & get a job. You can always explain why you were idle.

Use this option if you are supporting a family & if people are dependent on you financially.


Option 2

If you are financially independent & are supported by your family or otherwise.

Do not sign that Paper & do following -

- Prepare your case with printouts of all communications on Salary this includes, Offer Letter, Salary slips & all other paper or email (take printouts) on this matter in a chronological order

- Find a good lawyer

- Please see if you can record your next conversations with your Boss &/or the HR person, if you can then make sure you ask the right questions & make them answer

- Tell them you wont hesitate to go to Media, this is probably easier said than done but worth a shot.

In any case make sure yo0u have copies of all the communications which have happened so far.
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Old 11th October 2012, 00:15   #17
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

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Originally Posted by anujatwork View Post
1) Each paper in an appointment letter must carry initials or official company stamp, if not the full signature.

2) Most likely it is a goof-up done by HR. Reason they are asking you to sign a back-dated letter is because they want to expunge the incorrect letter from the records. This is proven by 3 facts. One, they paid you lesser salary, which they think is the correct salary so error hidden in accounts here. Two, they admitted that Audit will catch them so the revised letter will actually replace the old letter. Three, if you sign the new appt letter in current date, they will be bound to pay you higher salary from Aug till date, which they basically want to hide.

3) Getting a back-dated letter signed is not illegal, but unethical.

4) No company can sack you unless you commit a fraud or physical violence. If you want, you can become a prick for them for as long as you want. Many might disagree but it's jolly well possible for a smart fellow. It might take a toll on you if you are emotionally weak. Also, it can possibly spoil future prospects because references spread and a new employer won't bother to dig too deep for your sake, & rather look for an alternative so best to avoid a confrontation here.

5) You wont gain a thing by going into litigation. Your company wont suffer because it's bigger than an individual. Your boss wont suffer either because he not your 'principal employer' so making him a party will at best ensure his presence for 1 or 2 hearings and nothing more!


Look for a better job & find peace of mind, I suggest.
1) Its on letter head of the firm with full signature of M.D.
2) Problem is that even on July 28,2012, the lady which has done goof up ( probable ) had lied to me. What she claimed was that I would be getting more than Rs. 20K bonus this year, which now they say wont be possible. And in similar notes, I am losing Rs. 50K annually atleast with the current salary and July 28 excel sheet print out. This is first mistake. Second is letter with M.D. signature.

Despite losing 50K, I am still working. If I go by ABCDEF salary, I am getting 30% of what I am legally entitled to.
So they have realized thier mistake, and now want to rectificy in retrospect which makes me get very very less amount.

3) Here, considering so much complexity, I think they might prove me a fraud committing person. this is because I am getting less that any quoted amount. the new letter has this lower amount.

4) That is my exact fear. Its better to quit rather than become a part of blunder. This is true in this country. And once I sign, they can claim I am committing fraud and hence we are firing him and we have two letter for him also. then I am doomed.

5) Here is one place where I might end up using media and legal help from contacts. Then I am sure that my boss might end up without job with current employeer. That is not a scene I want to create.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
There are two ways in which this can be done.

This new offer/appointment letter has same pay mentioned as you were given? If yes then I don't think they are framing you, they are just trying to cover up for the Audit.

Option 1

Resign from this Job, don't sign any papers & sit idle for a while & get a job. You can always explain why you were idle.

Use this option if you are supporting a family & if people are dependent on you financially.


Option 2

If you are financially independent & are supported by your family or otherwise.

Do not sign that Paper & do following -

- Prepare your case with printouts of all communications on Salary this includes, Offer Letter, Salary slips & all other paper or email (take printouts) on this matter in a chronological order

- Find a good lawyer

- Please see if you can record your next conversations with your Boss &/or the HR person, if you can then make sure you ask the right questions & make them answer

- Tell them you wont hesitate to go to Media, this is probably easier said than done but worth a shot.

In any case make sure yo0u have copies of all the communications which have happened so far.
As mentioned above, they are paying me less than even their earlier claims, let alone the figure of appointment letter. Now, they want me to sign a letter which is first of all, backdated, and has reduced salary.

I am not married, and financially, I am still not a significant contributor to family. No problem on this front.

Media shot will be given tomorrow, along with mail demanding an explanation as to why I am made to sign back dated letter and why salary not paid.

Last and worst case scenario, I will just let this job go. Considering what has happened, I dont think that my boss will find it easy to work with me, though i am OK with his operational methodologies.
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Old 11th October 2012, 00:29   #18
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
As mentioned above, they are paying me less than even their earlier claims, let alone the figure of appointment letter. Now, they want me to sign a letter which is first of all, backdated, and has reduced salary.
Is the salary on the *new* back dated letter same as what you are currently paid?
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Old 11th October 2012, 00:52   #19
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

I don't understand and agree what the company is trying here, but simply because they are giving you a new appointment letter does not mean it's a fraud. They do have to give in writing that the previous appointment letter stands cancelled (preferably with the reason), and the new one is being issued in its place.

It sure is a weird (and sad) situation, though.
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Old 11th October 2012, 10:03   #20
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

1) @technocrat : No. The salary is less by around 50K.
There are two goof ups. First in promising perks and bonus and the other in the appointment letter.
The new letter has salary is lower than my first interaction with company.

2)@honeybee: no explanation no written clarification.
just plain two options. sign or forget job.
not even a single penny payment in either case.
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Old 11th October 2012, 10:21   #21
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) @technocrat : No. The salary is less by around 50K.
There are two goof ups. First in promising perks and bonus and the other in the appointment letter.
The new letter has salary is lower than my first interaction with company.

2)@honeybee: no explanation no written clarification.
just plain two options. sign or forget job.
not even a single penny payment in either case.
The country is now full with such un-ethical organisations and people.

Do not sign the backdated offer later. Its ok to loose the job, you have the skill and I am pretty sure you will find a new one.

As you don't have any financial obligations to meet, I think it is better you get out of the that organisation at the earliest and start your job search.

You want to teach them a lesson, well the impulsive reaction is YES. I would suggest you find a new job quickly and deal with the old orgnaisation later legally ofcourse.

PS: CTC details in Excel sheet was fishy to start with, usually offer letters are printed in PDFs with the company logo.

Last edited by F150 : 11th October 2012 at 10:23.
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Old 11th October 2012, 10:43   #22
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

Don't sign anything or resign. Let them fire you first. That way they'll have to give some reason and be legally entitled to pay you the dues and notice period pay as per the original offer letter (you can send a legal notice for this). They will also have to correct the PF and ESI mismatch which IMO is a big accounting headache.

Also, send an email to the HR and your manager from your official email id asking for the reason for a backdated offer letter. Don't be aggressive, just state that you are willing to sign in case a fair justification is provided. If they give a justification, sign the letter and look for a new job. If they don't and fire you, you can use this letter as proof that you were not fired for any un-ethical behavior. Do take prints of these email interactions and also forward these to your personal mail id.
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Old 11th October 2012, 10:48   #23
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Default Re: Need Help/Advice : Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal ?

Oh, this is bad.
I was stuck in one such mom and pop company for about 6 months once, and they also started the same shenanigans, and were trying to make me a scapegoat for some client loss.
I refused, and they threatened to terminate.
I quit, got the bile out of my system with the HR and the management, went home and sat looking for about 2months, and had the best ever employment post that with a biggie.

I was not a fresher, nor was it so that I had no liabilities.

But I had to go that place for about a week while the discussions were happening about how I could be blamed, and I had already lost the will to work for those guys, and it was hell to go to that place for those few days even.
Anxiety, irritability, anger, depression.

Litigation etc is not going to help, i feel, since although you may have time, you will be wasting money on what may or may not come to be.
plus, the constant association with the same people will just keep you running raw.
Dissociate now, is what I would say.
But hey, if your options allow it to be open.
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Old 11th October 2012, 18:00   #24
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

"that if you don't sign the new offer letter, you will get fired." , Can you get that on tape? If in case they fire, you could use that as proof for wrongful termination of contract.
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Old 11th October 2012, 18:40   #25
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

Definitely do not look at building a career with this firm, irrespective of what happens.

My suggestion is collect all the information and documents you can and refuse to sign the letter. You are lucky to be in a position where you can afford to quit and wait a few months for another job.

Start looking for a new job immediately and once found, give them notice as per the letter you have signed now so that they have to pay you for that. Otherwise they will give you nothing.

If they do fire you, they will have to follow the law, which says giving you x amount of time notice and payment for that time. Please check the letter you signed for these details.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:15   #26
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

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Originally Posted by govigov View Post
"that if you don't sign the new offer letter, you will get fired." , Can you get that on tape? If in case they fire, you could use that as proof for wrongful termination of contract.
Using tape is very difficult AFAIK, doesn't it have to go thru a whole forensics test before it can be admissible in court?
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:25   #27
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

I am not sure about the forensics part of it. May be an expert witness may be called in to confirm that video/audio was shot using a specific device and is not tampered. But, since we know that the video / audio is genuine, it should pass.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:41   #28
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

A friend of mine joined a large MNC as a Sr. Project Manger and he caught in between some bitter politics prevailing in the organization. After about 4 months of his joining he was asked to resign or they terminate him. He stood his ground and opted the later. They terminated him immediately citing various dubious reasons which amounts breach of contract. He sent a legal notice and they withheld his notice pay (2 months pay).
The first hearing came at a labor court after few moths and the presiding officer went heavily on the company. After another couple of hearings the company decided to settle the matter out of court for a handsome compensation (close to 6 months of his pay + lawyer fee) which my friend accepted. Of course my friend had a good lawyer on his side.
Though there were few mistakes from friend’s side he was helped by our labor laws which are more inclined towards and employee than employer.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:43   #29
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

Save yourself the bother, get another job, even if you have to sit idle for a while, meanwhile for the peace of your own mind and reconfirming the advise to move out of this organisation its better to consult a lawyer, there you will get the best advise, naturally, again litigation comes at a cost in terms of money and time taken. Both are not worth it.

If you sign the letter and accept the new terms, they will harass you on reference checks later on . Better to document everything and quit. Again, the company is not worth staying on.

Bonus is 100% dependent on company, they can set up any benchmarks, and is a privilege not a right, despite it being mentioned in the offer/appointment letter. By law, if profitmaking and over 5 years in profit, the company under the bonus act is liable to pay you only 8.33% of gross take home annual ctc.

Once again, wonder what was the reason for you to put the company's name out in public (on a searchable open forum) , if they backtrack and say that we never gave you the new option of a revised joining letter this post/thread of yours ends up being called as "defamation activity on your part against the company".

Even if you do accept the new arrangements, there is NO guarantee that this won't repeat again, better work for a reliable and honest company than to work for companies who can go back on a written letter.

Under any circumstance, do not sign the new/updated/lower appointment letter, its a crime, they WILL hold it against you depending on the circumstances.

Try and ask the mods to help you delete/rephrase the name of the company, the company can send you a notice and cause you unnecessary costs and inconvenience of a suit for defaming them on a publicly open forum (please read this as information transmitted and acknowledged by the Information Technology Act & its amendments)

Last edited by mmmjgm : 11th October 2012 at 20:00.
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Old 11th October 2012, 19:45   #30
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Default Re: Is signing a BACK-DATED Appointment letter Illegal?

IMHO, start looking for a job and as soon as you get one, render your resignation, in which you should also ask them to settle all dues (less salary since Aug).

Litigation should be the last resort, if they dont pay you the dues. Be prepared (but not eager) for that. As stated earlier by people, keep copies of all communication. Easier said than done, but as far as possible keep future communication in writing. All mid & high range mobiles have voice recorders, use it. Though I am not sure if a voice recording is an accepted form of proof.

As for long term perspective, this company is not the place where you should be looking to make a career for yourself.

Good luck!!
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