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Old 23rd December 2012, 13:53   #166
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Intestinal transplant is a real possibility and accepted medical transplant procedure for people with intestinal failures. There might be hope for the girl to lead a normal life if she survives any interim septicimia.

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Old 23rd December 2012, 14:15   #167
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

its really scary that S.144 is being imposed on such protests. I crossed India gate yesterday, and the protesters were just family and very young youth carrying placards. The governmental apparatus risks alienating the populace (much more than our general indifference/apathy to non-functioning state) by doing that.

Hope some sense prevails.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 16:39   #168
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

I wonder whether someone has sent in Agent Provocatuers into the crowd.

Is this really degenerating into India's Tehrir Square?

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Old 23rd December 2012, 17:45   #169
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by download2live View Post
Nothing will change. Politicians know that public memory is short. They are waiting for this to boil down so that they can go ahead with the usual caste and religion policy.

Robert Vadra was not wrong with his use of words "Mango people of Banana Republic.
Anyways the sad truth is that we Indians have an unprecedented capability of getting $hit piled upon us. Be it the Current Politicians or Britishers or Guys before.

We were always ruled. Meek are we. Something wrong in chromosomes I think.
Hi
Very well put.
Whether right or wrong a senior in our house has to be obeyed and is the deciding authority.By extension it is the same with our politicians.They decide what is good for us,even when the act is ethical/legal.
Definitely there has been some shift but it will take time for them learn to let go which nobody in power likes to do.
Regards
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Old 23rd December 2012, 20:20   #170
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

This is now getting nasty.
Constable Subhash Tomar in critical condition and fighting for his life.So will we now be having candle light vigil for him?Who is accountable if something happens to him.
..and if its just youngsters and families in the protest,who caused such life threatening injuries to him

And with all news channels now reporting that there are rowdy elements causing a lot of nuisance and troubling women in the protest place,what action should the police take?Sit and watch and be accused of doing nothing or take action and be accused of being brutal.Its very obvious that there are elements with vested interest who want to keep all this action going unabated for a while

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Old 23rd December 2012, 20:27   #171
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

The issue has become politicized. The crowd management has left a lot to be desired. The crowds are getting out of control and the police brutalities are sending the wrong signals. Maybe Delhi Police needs to be trained and made sensitive to the people's anger. This seems to be getting out of control. I think its not only the rape but the general frustration of the masses at large which is coming to the fore. But very inept handling of the entire matter by the police and civil administration.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 20:53   #172
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Some things have shocked me, its not these incidents only but something else. I have heard from my own colleagues (not confined to any specific region/caste) "what was the girl doing so late in the night?". Not just this incident but during the beating of girls at Mangalore too, "why were the girls drinking?". Or the recent incident in Bangalore University, "what was the girl doing at this time of night with a guy?". No one is saying that she deserved it, but why are girls taking such a risk?

There are people moving into metros who have a very different mind set to to those who have been living in the metros for a long time. Im saying we are in cross roads.

So what I would like to say is to be very careful. When the US embassy is advising women on covering up fully, how can we say "let our girl/women wear anything they want?". Ultimately the choice is left to us to do what we can to make our streets safe and keep our girls/women out of harms way even if it means no late night parties.
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Old 24th December 2012, 09:28   #173
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Default Hats off to young India

Now I know how our fathers must have felt hearing this chant. Long live the spirit of YOUNG INDIA. I salute you. It is a long pust but I cannot stop.

Sarfaroshi ki Tamanna...


सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है
देखना है ज़ोर कितना बाज़ू-ए-क़ातिल में है

(ऐ वतन,) करता नहीं क्यूँ दूसर कुछ बातचीत,
देखता हूँ मैं जिसे वो चुप तेरी महफ़िल में है
ऐ शहीद-ए-मुल्क-ओ-मिल्लत, मैं तेरे ऊपर निसार,
अब तेरी हिम्मत का चरचा ग़ैर की महफ़िल में है
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

वक़्त आने पर बता देंगे तुझे, ए आसमान,
हम अभी से क्या बताएँ क्या हमारे दिल में है
खेँच कर लाई है सब को क़त्ल होने की उमीद,
आशिकों का आज जमघट कूचा-ए-क़ातिल में है
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

है लिए हथियार दुश्मन ताक में बैठा उधर,
और हम तैयार हैं सीना लिए अपना इधर.
ख़ून से खेलेंगे होली गर वतन मुश्क़िल में है,
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

हाथ, जिन में है जूनून, कटते नही तलवार से,
सर जो उठ जाते हैं वो झुकते नहीं ललकार से.
और भड़केगा जो शोला सा हमारे दिल में है,
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

हम तो घर से ही थे निकले बाँधकर सर पर कफ़न,
जाँ हथेली पर लिए लो बढ चले हैं ये कदम.
ज़िंदगी तो अपनी मॆहमाँ मौत की महफ़िल में है,
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

यूँ खड़ा मक़्तल में क़ातिल कह रहा है बार-बार,
क्या तमन्ना-ए-शहादत भी किसी के दिल में है?
दिल में तूफ़ानों की टोली और नसों में इन्कलाब,
होश दुश्मन के उड़ा देंगे हमें रोको न आज.
दूर रह पाए जो हमसे दम कहाँ मंज़िल में है,
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है

वो जिस्म भी क्या जिस्म है जिसमे न हो ख़ून-ए-जुनून
क्या लड़े तूफ़ान से जो कश्ती-ए-साहिल में है
सरफ़रोशी की तमन्ना अब हमारे दिल में है
देखना है ज़ोर कितना बाज़ू-ए-क़ातिल में

English Translation:
The desire for sacrifice is now in our hearts
We shall now see what strength there is in the boughs of the enemy.

Hey country, Why is no one speaking to each other?
Whoever I see, is gathered quiet in my party...
O martyr of country, of nation, I submit myself to thee
For yet even the enemy speaks of thy courage
The desire for struggle is in our hearts...

When the time comes, we shall show thee, O heaven
For why should we tell thee now, what lurks in our hearts?
We have been dragged to service, by the hope of blood, of vengeance
Yea, by our love for nation divine, we go to the streets of the enemy
The desire for struggle is in our hearts...

Armed does the enemy sit, ready to open fire
Ready too are we, our bosoms thrust out to him
With blood we shall play Holi, if our nation need us
The desire for struggle is in our hearts...

No sword can sever hands that have the heat of battle within,
No threat can bow heads that have risen so...
Yea, for in our insides has risen a flame,
and the desire for struggle is in our hearts...

Set we out from our homes, our heads shrouded with cloth,
Taking our lives in our hands, do we march so...
In our assembly of death, life is now but a guest
The desire for struggle is in our hearts...

Stands the enemy in the gallows thus, asking,
Does anyone wish to be sacrificed?...
With a host of storms in our heart, and with revolution in our breath,
We shall knock the enemy cold, and no one shall stop us...

What good is a body that does not have passionate blood,
How can one conquer a storm while in a shored boat.

The desire for struggle is in our hearts,
We shall now see what strength there is in the boughs of the enemy.

--- बिस्मिल अज़ीमाबादी (Wrongly cited for Ram Prasad Bismil)

Last edited by sgiitk : 24th December 2012 at 09:34.
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Old 24th December 2012, 14:11   #174
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

I doubt the government cares, but it's all gone international now. Just this evening here in the US, they had a report on what has been happening. Mind you this wasn't on CNN or MSNBC or any of the cable networks. This was on one of the national channels. They also had a story about other rape victims in Haryana (Sky News did that one) and they showed grainy footage of a woman being harassed by men outside a nightclub in Delhi I think.
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Old 24th December 2012, 14:20   #175
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

I have a feeling that this may become India's Tahrir Square. There was a Water Cannon attack on the kids at 6:00am. Now everywhere people are up in arms. Today's address by MMS did not help much, and Shinde's interview trying to equate the students with Maoists definitely did not help. Smelt of Maai Baap Sarker. When they go to the hustings in 2014 who is Maai Baap will become evident.

They have only one thing on their mind - Putin's visit. Even here MMS changed the venue to 7RCR - too scared to step out! They were scheduled to meet in Hyderabad House.This was against protocol since the PM calls on a President or they meet at some other venue, and not the other way round.

Last edited by sgiitk : 24th December 2012 at 14:21.
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Old 24th December 2012, 17:54   #176
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I have a feeling that this may become India's Tahrir Square
Sir,may I very humbly ask you why you keep referring to Tahrir sqaure very often?What is the aftermath of Tahrir square?How did it improve the lives of the people post the movement?Do you have any info to share,please.Egypt is fast falling into the arms of the Muslim brotherhood organization.Do you really think that is much better situation to the Egyptians than the rule under Hosni Mubarak?

In India's context how is it equivalent?

Whilst the Delhi incident is vehemently condemned and my heart goes out to the victim,what is that we are trying to achieve through the protests happening now?Do we want to continue the protests until the 6 men are hanged?Do we want to continue the protest until the Parliament passes some stringent law against such crimes?Do we want to continue the protest until the Govt comes and meets us - which I think the Home minister did today.What kind of message are we trying to send out when we forcefuly try to enter the President's resident?

Looking at the chronology of events,the police action started when the protesters tried to remove barricades and move into raisina hills?So what kind of action should the police have taken in that case?Are there any suggestions here?

I am just wondering what kind of action the police would take here in the US,if people tried to forcefuly enter the President's residence?Whenever one visits Whitehouse,we always see a group of people sitting there and protesting some topic or the other but peacefuly.But what would the Police do if they tried to forcefuly enter the residence?
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Old 24th December 2012, 19:47   #177
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Sir,may I very humbly ask you why you keep referring to Tahrir sqaure very often?What is the aftermath of Tahrir square?How did it improve the lives of the people post the movement?Do you have any info US,if people tried to forcefuly enter the President's residence?Whenever one visits Whitehouse,we always see a group of people sitting there and protesting some topic or the other but peacefuly.But what would the Police do if they tried to forcefuly enter the residence?
[] Any democracy worth it's name allows it's citizens the right to protest. This however as you rightly point out does not include to the Right to Riot or the Right to Damage Public Property.

I for one, do not condemn the police for dispersing the crowds.

[] The incident (rape of the young lady and the violence she and her friend were subjected to) that happened is reprehensible and I doubt if the English language or for that matter any language can enable folks to give vent to the extent of disgust and anger and outrage that is felt universally.

[] This nonsense of amending the statute to bring in even more drastic punishment is just that nonsense. The problem is NOT the laws on the statute book. The problem is the law enforcement machinery in Delhi and in all likelihood in all of India. I have just one question for those willing to listen - Why did Delhi Police allow buses with tinted glasses to operate when the apex court of the land had ruled otherwise regarding use of tinted glasses on vehicles?

The Khakhi uniform is NOT about service to the rule of law. It is ONLY about personal enrichment at every checkpost/roadblock, whenever we go to the local thaana to file a complaint,by giving false reports to state the victim's are either complicit in their own misfortune or have provoked it and justifiably deserve it because the accused have greased the palms of the local S H O.

SO while the poor victim fights for her life, this tamasha in her name is being played out for the benefit of the live TV coverage and news vending corprorations. No one is questioning those who need to pay for this by losing their jobs.

This is the tragedy of India. We the law abiding are the victims of the lawlessness of the law enforcers!
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Old 24th December 2012, 22:37   #178
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
Funny I wrote exactly on the same lines, haven't posted it yet. Truth is always bitter and I am not good at sugar coating, but trying to smoothen it's eadges as far as possible before I post it.



you are overestimating Tahrir square. The problem is bigger than you think. I will hopefully post my views in a day or two.
And here are my views, also posted on facebook.

Quote:
So after all the rage about the gang rape in New Delhi and the atrocities that followed, I was forced to think about the basic problem. Unfortunately, in the whole of south eastern Asia and middle east, Women have a secondary (or worse) status in the society. And they are often the subject of sexual violence.

I had to put my economist-hat on, and this might be a little unsettling to some people, but we do have to look at the calculative side of human brain that commits these acts. So please be advised and if you get upset, send me a message and I will try to change my words.

Looking from the point of view of a typical male in, say New Delhi, the benefit of a sex crime is the female touch, sight, sexual pleasure, and may be sadistic pleasure of demeaning another human being. The cost (risk) of getting caught is pretty low, the risk of getting convicted is even lower. The sadistic pleasure is one of the worst things I have observed in that part of the world, People do things just so they can hurt others. More on that later.

Compare this to a male in a western society. Sight, touch, and even sex is readily available. Usually there is a price associated with it, but it’s nowhere comparable to the risk of imprisonment. On the other hand, in a western world, a woman is more likely to fight back, report it to police, identify him, go public, and the judicial system is equally fast and efficient to make sure justice is served.

Majority of cases in India are dropped because the victim feels victimized further in the discovery phase, with public more interested in knowing the "details". Not only she is ogled at, she is also outcast as "impure" for a "successful married life" even by the most educated who would usually use "family pressure" as the excuse to back out. This further reduces the risk for a potential criminal.

This explains why in western society, a typical male is less likely to attack a women no matter how deserted place she is in. Something that can be had for a couple dollars a night, (or sometimes just a play of words), is just not worth the risk of imprisonment with a forcible approach.

So where does it start? It actually start when a girl is born in the family. She is kept at home, the boy is given preference in studies, outdoor activities etc, and the girl is “protected” from the outside world. Because she is the "pride" of the family. A boy goes out drinks, gets arrested, makes out with girls, people have no problem. But if a girl does the same, they get to the point of committing suicide of shame. A boy comes home and tell his folks that he had a good trip to a hill station, everybody applauds and asks for details. A girl says the same and the first question is asked is "who did you go with?". What they really mean is "you were alone without family, you could have slept with boys, did you?”. Unfortunately they cannot ask that directly. There are rules for women to not be outside without male company, not to do manual work, not even to talk to other men. Many of the women on facebook should be able to recall their parents' faces when start talking to another male in the community. A funny incident comes to my mind when I was boarding a bus and I asked a woman if the bus goes to **** (my destination), a man came running towards me shouting (in Hindi), "why are you talking to her, talk to me". All because of a possessive- protective attitude towards women.

Guess what, the more we protect something, the more valuable it becomes for everybody. It’s as close as it gets to economics of supply and demand. You buy a stock, it's price rises. You think you are buying it because it's price is rising, it's actually rising because you are hording it. Same goes with family "pride". The moment you declare it, anybody who wants to hurt you will hurt the pride first. This is why women are the first target once a military wins another state. Now don't get me wrong. This is not done to women by men. In most families I have seen, the older women enforce the rules; fathers often have supported their daughters to be self-dependent more than the mothers have.

So, what's the solution? Empowering our women? Making female body more accessible and less secretive/matter of pride (can we legalize prostitution)? Making our judicial and law enforcement system better? Well, except the last one, there is a BIG problem in implementing all of these.

You see, there is no single India. There is a rich India, and there is a poor India. There is a forward India, and there is a backward India. You try to change one India, and the other India will maul you down. What we are seeing is a clash of multiple Indias. The progressive, forward Rich India will not (should not) stop, and will keep demanding and exercising better civic rights and responsibilities. The backward India will take centuries to change, and it will attack the forward India either of frustration, or plain opportunism. This is also the reason we are seeing dramatic increase in the crimes, financial scams, con jobs, relatives/friends kidnapping and killing for money etc. The different Indias are operating at different financial, moral and intellectual levels and are completely different in personal integrity. When they clash, something unpleasant happens.

So there, I have no easy solution but I have certainly raised more questions than there already were. I am sorry but writing petitions and violent protests for government to do “something”, hanging the culprits, or devising a new kind of barbaric punishments is not going to work unless ground realities are changed. I know emotions are running high, and all of us want to do something about it. I urge you not to do “just anything” and focus on the real problem instead. Thank you for reading.
and before anybody points it out, I am not advocating following western culture. It's just to contrast and compare, in order to find the underlying cause.

Last edited by vivekiny2k : 24th December 2012 at 22:54.
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Old 24th December 2012, 23:26   #179
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and before anybody points it out, I am not advocating following western culture. It's just to contrast and compare, in order to find the underlying cause.
Are you suggesting rape is not a problem in western world? Are there no date rapes? ruflins or whatever it is called?

TOI published some stats and the country with highest number of reported rapes is Sweden with 92 cases per lakh (of population). that, for an incredibly safe society. france also ranks high in this list. the stat for India was 1.8 cases per lakh. even if we assume only 10% cases are reported in India, we still have less cases than sweden and france.

crime against women is there everywhere. its not a cultural thing.

Last edited by joslicx : 24th December 2012 at 23:39.
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Old 24th December 2012, 23:39   #180
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^^ that was very well put Vivek. a good analysis of the the situation prevailing in India, I feel
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