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Old 4th January 2013, 09:25   #346
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

@Samurai; Apparently the age on the day of the (alleged) crime only matters. There is some clamour for another age determination.
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Old 4th January 2013, 09:45   #347
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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For a minute I thought I was in the horror movies thread. Do you know a few weeks back president pardoned a convicted rapist and cold blooded murderer of a 6 year old girl? Why such a hate for an undertrial? What happened to our principle of "Innocent until proven guilty".

Also, according to our law, this is not a rarest of rare case. There are far too many mitigating circumstances..
This is the sad thing about law. Everybody is innocent till proven guilty. Look at open and shut cases like this or Kasab's, they are innocent! Can there be a bigger travesty of law than this? It is so easy to buy witnesses and a guilty person can be easily proven innocent. Remember the recent incident, where professional witnesses turned up to proclaim that they saw Constable Tomar being assaulted?

Another disgusting aspect is taking precedent to earlier cases and judgments; this means that mistakes once committed will be repeated! If you don't consider this dastardly act is not rarest of rare (gang raping, raping when unconscious, pulling out the intestine, throwing out her naked body on the street), then I've a lot to say about you, but I can't say them here. Also, if it is not considered rarest of rare, then future dastardly acts will not be!

According to me, there is only one law, I call it the law of nature; A RIGHT IS A RIGHT, A WRONG IS A WRONG. Rights and wrong can not be decided by professional out there to make quick bucks. Humans should be intelligent enough to incorporate this aspect into their laws. Else, there will be lawlessness all around.

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Old 4th January 2013, 11:41   #348
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Also, according to our law, this is not a rarest of rare case. There are far too many mitigating circumstances.

.
If this is not rarest or rare, as mentioned by CJI Bhagvati, I fail to understand what would fit in to that. A group of men, cheat a women to enter a bus. Beat up her friend, and rape her multiple times. They beat her to pulp with an iron rod. Insert that rod into her genitalia. A juvenile after raping her twice, takes out her intestine with his bare hands. They rip her of her clothes, throw her on the road, and try to run her over with the bus.

Still doesnt suffice to be rare enough ??

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By the time this gets to court, he won't be juvenile anymore. So he can be treated as adult.
His age on the day of the crime matters and he is around 5 months more to be 18. They are trying to ascertain his age using the bone ageing method.

If he is actually a minor, he will be tried in a juvenile court, where the max punishment is 3 years. His case will not be transfered to a normal court even after 5 months, nor will be be moved to a normal jail, as the clause of age on the day of crime matters.

System flaw, and this needs an immediate correction. Come to think of it, a guy can kill some one on the last day of his 17th year and walk away with 3 years. A day later, and he can be hanged.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:50   #349
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@Samurai; Apparently the age on the day of the (alleged) crime only matters. There is some clamour for another age determination.
Sorry guys I've been away for New years and I just got through all the new responses. My question is, is there any provision in Indian law for a juvenile to be tried as an adult?
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:53   #350
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This juvenile $$$$$$$ will be released after 3 years of imprisonment.
Even if he gets 3 years jail term he will be out in a few months (when he turns 18).

As an adult, he can't be kept in a juvenile home & those tried under the Juvenile Justice act can't be sent to jail.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:02   #351
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

If there had been a real willingness to punish this beast, the report would have been tweaked to show him as an adult. After all, so many things are tweaked!

I wonder what is making his parents (if they are alive and allow him to stay with them) keep quiet!
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:25   #352
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
Sorry guys I've been away for New years and I just got through all the new responses. My question is, is there any provision in Indian law for a juvenile to be tried as an adult?
No. He will be tried as a juvenile, and will come out through the loop hole in IPC.

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Even if he gets 3 years jail term he will be out in a few months (when he turns 18).

As an adult, he can't be kept in a juvenile home & those tried under the Juvenile Justice act can't be sent to jail.
Sadly yes. He will walk out soon , unless there is some drastic change in law made with immediate effect, which is unlikely. Mostly he wont get any prison term this way, cos 5 months in court is nothing.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:30   #353
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Sadly yes. He will walk out soon , unless there is some drastic change in law made with immediate effect, which is unlikely. Mostly he wont get any prison term this way, cos 5 months in court is nothing.
Remember Vodafone tax case, retrospective effect??? If there is will, there is a way. THIS BEAST CAN BE PUNISHED AND MUST BE PUNISHED.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:32   #354
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by carbookie View Post
It is good that we are outraged, but don't use this outrage to punish these people. Use the outrage to get better laws, corruption free and safe society. Use the outrage for a change in thinking of the society.
If punishment for rape equals punishment for murder, then any perpetrator of rape will kill the victim and make it more difficult to investigate the case.

Even if there is highest penalty for rape, if the police don't file a strong case, no judge can convict the perpetrator. Hence, I wish the current outrage translates to better investigation of rape cases by police. A standard protocol/procedure/process must be established & followed by police across the country. I feel this will help is identifying genuine & false cases.

I learned that any sex other than with spouse *can* constitute rape under Indian laws. This is dangerous and definition needs to be changed to differentiate between from consensual sex. Else, police will treat genuine rape victim with suspicion.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:36   #355
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

High time the name of this "KID" is disclosed so that Mob can take over finish the job, which Judiciary is not able to.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:39   #356
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Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post

Remember Vodafone tax case, retrospective effect??? If there is will, there is a way. THIS BEAST CAN BE PUNISHED AND MUST BE PUNISHED.
This is exactly the kind of sentiment that starts the downfall of society.

Mob mentality is good in arguments, but shouldn't drive law and a country
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:44   #357
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Reminds me of Hari om pawar,
Any way, I guess its not the Govt (of course govt is responsible) , or Bharat ka samvidhan , for me its not even Judicial system or police that is at fault ( they are trying what they can) ,Society yes may be, but i believe still a very large part of the society is not bad
.Our Growth rate dream is too ambitious i guess, It has forced us(govt) to focus on only one thing. I guess countries should be goverend by people coming from lower level of society , not some Economist acting on some alhuwalia's advice.

That stupid dream to make india a super economy in short span , most of things have been totally forgotten , things that actually matter to make a country a great country.

Population density coupled with economic divide of society is what i think is the problem.


Neway I aint a very learned guy, so does really matter what i think.
Take a listen what Hariom pawar has to say on you tube.




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Old 4th January 2013, 12:48   #358
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post

Even if there is highest penalty for rape, if the police don't file a strong case, no judge can convict the perpetrator. Hence, I wish the current outrage translates to better investigation of rape cases by police. A standard protocol/procedure/process must be established & followed by police across the country. I feel this will help is identifying genuine & false cases.

.
Totally agree. Our conviction rate is 26%. And just to think of it, a very small %ge of rapes are ever reported. So just to think of the number of cases that never gets reported is staggering.

This girl was made to give her testimony twice. A poor girl having to go through all that, has to reconstruct the entire event in her death bed 2 times. These are things that the system needs to correct.

Absolute privacy for the victim, in-camera proceedings of the entire procedure and swift justice , is the need of the hour.
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Old 4th January 2013, 12:53   #359
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by carbookie View Post
Why such a hate for an undertrial? What happened to our principle of "Innocent until proven guilty"..
Can you explain why should we be compassionate about the killers and not hate them? Rights of undertrials are always important and we should respect that, but not for these inhumans. (Cant use the word "animals" or "beasts" for them, its an insult to the animal kingdom). "Innocent until proven guilty" is fine for cases of trivial nature, not for cases like these where they have been identified by the victims and they themselves have confessed to the crime, more so to a ghastly barbaric crime. Why do you want to put in this "Innocent until proven guilty" clause here to give benefit of the doubt to these killers?

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Originally Posted by carbookie View Post
Also, according to our law, this is not a rarest of rare case. There are far too many mitigating circumstances.
Rather than mitigating circumstances, here there are aggravating circumstances which require the harshest possible punishments. Right from enticing the couple to board the bus by trickery, then assault, rape, torture and finally murder...these are all loads of aggravating circumstances, both in acts and intentions. And surely, it deserves the harshest possible punishments.

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Should we hang the alleged rapists just because this rape is in news, while far worse incidents unreported elsewhere? A very bad, unfortunate and tragic incident happened. And the biggest tragedy is it repeats every few hours somewhere in India. Names of victim, perpetrators and places change. And incidents die a silent death, in memories and in files.
Okay, so as per your logic we should not hang these rapists because many other rapists are moving scot free? I find this logic very convulated. Ofcourse, everyone of them deserve to hang, but many of them getting pardons by ineffective Presidents/ Goverments should not be construed as a precedent for every one getting pardons and leniency.

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I understand we (and Arnab Goswami) is outraged. But that is not the reason for demanding a kangaroo justice.It is good that we are outraged, but don't use this outrage to punish these people.
What then needs to be done as per you if we need not punish them? Place garlands and give them a world cup winning teams reception? (On a different note, our cricket team also does not deserve this anymore). Moreover, I don't think there is going to be kangaroo justice. (Though I sincerely hope for one, taliban style in this case). Let me assure you, with our judiciary and legal process, these killers will be relatively comfortable goverment guests for sometime to come spending our (taxpayers) money. Kasab probably still remembered the tastes of Biryani and the warmth of his blankets, which he did not deserve, till he hung.

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Half baked ideas, and overzealous public and lawmakers leads to laws like IPC 498a.
The misuse of IPC 498A is there, but still I feel that strong laws and stronger implementation is required be it dowry or pickpocketing.

Our laws must evolve with time and circumstances of the case. Has anyone seen the Korean courts verdict today of "15 years in jail, chemical castration, rapists information be made available to the public for 10 years and that he should wear an electronic monitoring anklet for 20 years after his release from prison along with undergoing 200 hours of therapy to treat his sexual impulses." His crime? Blackmailing underage teenagers to have sex with him. Seems like kite flying without license in comparision to the ghastly barbarism shown in Delhi by our homegrown killers. Now, will you go and say that South Korea is ruled by taliban and this is a kangaroo court's justice for a small crime? No. The judgement reflects the reality and also tries to prevent further crimes by the same man. In comparison, the Delhi killers surely deserve to see the hangman.

On a different note, many of us are saying that the juvenile gets 3 years in jail. No, its 3 years in a juvenile correction centre undergoing "reformation counselling". And as per my knowledge these reform homes are actually those criminal producing factories which in effect will make a harder, harsher future criminal out of him. Duh! Why go for these fake reforms, just hang him and do away with it all.

Last edited by wanderer4x4 : 4th January 2013 at 12:55.
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Old 4th January 2013, 13:11   #360
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
That stupid dream to make india a super economy in short span , most of things have been totally forgotten , things that actually matter to make a country a great country.

Population density coupled with economic divide of society is what i think is the problem.
Seem like an offshoot of Godwin's Law - any issue is blamed on opening of economy in 1992. Lets not lose focus on the issue. Rape has been throughout Indian history. Its only now that people learn about the cases happening in other parts of the country. Note that to convict a rapist, the victim has to prove she is not a 'loose woman'. Hence the lawyer of the perpetrator constantly tries to malign the character of the victim. So a lot women don't report rape cases.

Unless charging rate of rape cases & conviction rate improves, this problem won't go away.
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