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Old 8th January 2013, 09:15   #436
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

The problem is not lack of working hours, but no work done in working hours. When the next date is given all the time on current date is wasted. Many cases go to next dates again and again due to technicalities. That is the problem. Not vacations.
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:04   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
Law is not my specialization, so I'm not in a position to suggest the alternative.
In which case, I think you are also not in a position to say that there is a better alternative. The 'innocent until proven guilty' was put in by people who probably thought a lot about it.


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Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
Why can't the legal luminaries come up with a sensible alternative?
Because there isn't one.
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:12   #438
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

There is a vested interest in repeated delays. Many years ago the CJ of the MPHC, Mr Justice Bhatt started a crackdown on pending cases. The result was there was a startling decline in the number of new filings as apparently a lot of litigation is take advantage the delays in our system.
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:36   #439
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
The problem is with the very basis of judicial system. INNOCENT TILL PROVEN GUILTY, this may be applicable in some cases, but can't be the basis for every care.
The alternative is GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT which is dangerous in the hand of the Govt.
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Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar View Post
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/17922913.cms
And now we have a spiritual guru Asaram Bapu say something controversial
He is not the only one. A lot of people hold wrong notions. I welcome more people to come out in open and express their opinion. Only then their prejudice can be answered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolin View Post
One of my professors from law school has written an excellent piece - very relevant to the questions being asked here.

http://lawandotherthings.blogspot.in...ility-and.html
A very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 8th January 2013, 11:10   #440
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
So what do you propose? How do you decide which cases need "Innocent Till Proven Guilty" and which don't.
Did you not go through this thread in detail?

"Innocent till proven guilty" for the all the 99.999% cases which media has not sensationalized. For the 0.001% cases which media took up (Nirbhaya, Jessica, Pridarshini, Nitish Katara, Bijal joshi), the justice must be swift and instantaneous. In fact the accused in such cases should be hanged publicly, immediately.

God forbid, if media terror ever befalls on us helpless folks. You think it is not possible? Look at Talwar's.
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Old 8th January 2013, 11:23   #441
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

I find it very amusing that the current state of functioning of the judiciary is being defended with full 6in cal rounds, as if its a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it.".

The state is not all hunky dory, and the people here are making suggestions here for our own perception of justice to delivered swiftly, based upon our own understanding as citizens(not law makers), its because we have seen the system fail repeatedly.
Almost every time.

In this state, to ask for deviation, to clamor for change, to be adamant almost to the extent of being kangaroo-like, its called for.
Hell, its been done before, and its been denied before as well. Anger IS justified. Maybe a kick-start is what it will give to the rot in the system, political, as well as judicial.
If not now, then there will always be a next time. And there WILL be a next time, if the system functions in its current faltering manner.
And it will be more outlandish, more demanding of change, and expecting more of change as well.
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Old 8th January 2013, 12:04   #442
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
In this state, to ask for deviation, to clamor for change, to be adamant almost to the extent of being kangaroo-like, its called for.
Hell, its been done before, and its been denied before as well. Anger IS justified. Maybe a kick-start is what it will give to the rot in the system, political, as well as judicial.
Be careful what you wish for, for it might be granted.

If people here really wanted a long term change (judicial, police, political), they would have been clamoring for speeding up the reform of these systems. "Criminal justice reforms" have been pending for decades. Malimat Comittee report is gathering dust somewhere. Half the problems people cited here about judiciary can be solved if reforms were done on time.

If I remember correctly Malimath committee wanted to remove the holidays enjoyed by our judiciary. The judiciary understands the problem and wants to self correct. And guess who is not interested in reforming the system and accepting the recommendations?

Supreme court of India in, Prakash Singh vs. Union of India, ruled that state govts adhere to seven principles that laid down ways to start police reforms in India. How many states have fully implemented that?

But then who wants to change the system from within. Just like fast food, the swift justice tastes nice, even if its not healthy for you.


Link for report for those interested.

Last edited by carbookie : 8th January 2013 at 12:05. Reason: added link
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Old 8th January 2013, 12:55   #443
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
Because there isn't one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The alternative is GUILTY TILL PROVEN INNOCENT which is dangerous in the hand of the Govt.
There is no alternative if we think there is no alternative. Imagine the situation if all the great inventors had thought like this! Mankind has made progress in every aspect of life, why should legal be such a rubbish?

The alternative need not be a blanket guilty till proven innocent. Let the legal luminaries come up with sensible alternatives. They don't want the alternatives, because they know how to find loopholes and milk the current system.

Consider the present case and guess what will happen when "innocent till proven guilty" and "guilty till proven innocent" are applied.
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Old 8th January 2013, 13:09   #444
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
Consider the present case and guess what will happen when "innocent till proven guilty" and "guilty till proven innocent" are applied.
For the sake of argument, how do you know for sure that 6 persons in police custody committed the crime? What if police had picked up 6 random guys & filed a case on them? All we have so far have is police's word that they have water-tight case.
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Old 8th January 2013, 13:24   #445
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
There is no alternative if we think there is no alternative. Imagine the situation if all the great inventors had thought like this! Mankind has made progress in every aspect of life, why should legal be such a rubbish?
Lots of people have thought about it and figured out that this is the best alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
The alternative need not be a blanket guilty till proven innocent. Let the legal luminaries come up with sensible alternatives. They don't want the alternatives, because they know how to find loopholes and milk the current system.
So you are saying that in the whole wide world, all the the legal luminaries haven't tried to come up with sensible alternatives for criminal cases because they want to find loopholes and milk the current system.

Your contention is that in the whole wide world, there isn't even in one single legal luminary (may be even a law professor who isn't interested in milking any system).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
Consider the present case and guess what will happen when "innocent till proven guilty" and "guilty till proven innocent" are applied.
I don't know - what will happen to the present case when "innocent till proven guilty" and "guilty till proven innocent" are applied. I don't even know how both can be applied at the same time.
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Old 8th January 2013, 13:41   #446
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Whatever said and done, I'd suggest students/young people to control what they can:

1. If you're sent to study, please focus on studies rather than hanging out with boyfriend(s) and/or girlfriend(s). There is plenty of time for dating later in life once you're settled.

2. Should you wish to go out, be sure to go in groups and preferably during daytime. If you really must go out at night, it must be to places where there are lots of people, especially on roads etc. Try to avoid distant trips as well (even within a city).

3. Avoid night clubs/pubs etc., which have a shady reputation. Remember you're sent by your parents to study.

4. Avoid unnecessary arguments with people. Sometimes its better to take a step back to have two steps forward.

5. Always use the public transport or friends' four wheelers and never autos/bikes/private transport, especially at night.

6. Be sure to inform someone where you're going and what time you would be back.

7. Parents should also be in a position to know the whereabouts & habits of their kids.

8. Avoid exposing at public places. If you're wearing party-wear or other fancy clothes, please use a gown when travelling on public roads/places/medium. You cant stop eyes prying on you and not everyone may be civilized!

Remember, criminals are always around. They're never scared or worried about the consequences. Its us who loose in the end, so lets be sure to pass on the above to all youngsters for a better and safer tomorrow.
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Old 8th January 2013, 14:08   #447
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
For the sake of argument, how do you know for sure that 6 persons in police custody committed the crime? What if police had picked up 6 random guys & filed a case on them? All we have so far have is police's word that they have water-tight case.
The purpose of law should be to hand out justice, not arguments. I suppose, that this is where the system looses out. We have great lawyers, who can argue on anything, prove any wrong to be right and any right to be wrong, but can not get justice to the deserving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
Lots of people have thought about it and figured out that this is the best alternative.
This best alternative allows guilty to get away with hired witnesses, lawyers get richer by arguing (not getting justice) and drag the cases for ages (which end only when litigants die)!

To a layman, the legalities have been deliberately made complex, so that lawyers can take the litigants for a ride. I've seen a lot of legal agreements. Why can't they be in plain English or any other language, why should we need a lawyer to interpret to us all the time?

Human being have been living for thousands of years, built great civilizations, made great discoveries and inventions; all without any written books. But when it comes to present judicial system, there are thousands and thousands of books, which fail to deliver justice! What is the use of such a system?

Last edited by moralfibre : 8th January 2013 at 15:00. Reason: Closing quote
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Old 8th January 2013, 14:27   #448
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
This best alternative allows guilty to get away with hired witnesses, lawyers get richer by arguing (not getting justice) and drag the cases for ages (which end only when litigants die)!
Please propose a better alternative than "innocent until proven guilty" for criminal cases - otherwise just saying that a better alternative exists and that all the legal scholars in the whole world are suppressing it because of vested interests really doesn't really take forward the discussion. Even if this were true how are we going to make one of them change their minds and actually spill out this secret better alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa_kiran View Post
To a layman, the legalities have been deliberately made complex, so that lawyers can take the litigants for a ride. I've seen a lot of legal agreements. Why can't they be in plain English or any other language, why should we need a lawyer to interpret to us all the time?
Next, I hope that all the medical textbooks of the world be written in plain English so that we don't need to go a doctor. FWIW, I have never needed a lawyer in my life, but have needed doctors plenty of times. I think there is a bigger conspiracy afoot in the medical world than in the legal one.
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Old 8th January 2013, 15:24   #449
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Just in case you missed, the following came on google-news feed some time back:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/delhi/...ed_821488.html

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Old 8th January 2013, 20:14   #450
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Originally Posted by carbookie View Post

"Innocent till proven guilty" for the all the 99.999% cases which media has not sensationalized. For the 0.001% cases which media took up (Nirbhaya, Jessica, Pridarshini, Nitish Katara, Bijal joshi), the justice must be swift and instantaneous. In fact the accused in such cases should be hanged publicly, immediately.
So you are saying the best way to get justice is to get media attention?

Now let me convey that to all the poor people waiting for decades for their share of justice and have nothing fancy in their case to attract attention. Why do they need any swift justice.
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