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Old 31st January 2013, 15:45   #616
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1. You don't know how to determine puberty?
What if a crime is committed and the kid is caught a year later? How will the judge determine whether the kid had passed puberty when he committed the crime?

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2. Good. You had a chance to say that onset of puberty is not equal to becoming a full adult and thus cannot be handed out full severity punishment. But anyway you chose to waste your words ...
Why do you think I want to say this?

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3. I can see that you missed the entire point of my post. I said that we, the citizens of India, anyway trust our judiciary system to resolve the cases. We trust the officials of judiciary = judges SOLELY to decide whether the accused is guilty or non-guilty AS WELL AS decide the punishment.
I don't trust the judges - as simple as that. The lesser discretionary power they have, the better in my opinion.

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4. ??? What is the relevance? Rich and powerful parents can anyway bend and change any rule-book that you create. Whether a judge has the ability to decided ad hoc that the case is rarest of rare and hence requires capital punishment or doesn't require a death sentence for a murder or whether the judge follows the book and requires officially stamped documents and evidence to determine the age and then proceed with the case ...
What you've mentioned is entirely irrelevant.
You are giving an additional discretionary power to a judge. Each extra discretionary power you give to the judges, the police and the govt weakens the system.
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Old 31st January 2013, 16:14   #617
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Accountability of parents is valid if kids have followed parents' instructions. Otherwise kids are free citizens too.
I dont get this condition about instructions. If my kid goes out and damages someone's property or someone then its only fair I compensate for it. That is sort of my damages (or punishment) for my failures to control my kid's behavior.

If there are no set accountabilities then anybody and everybody would just feign ignorance and there will be total anarchy. The prime minister can just say there are no problems in India and pat thats it! No problems in India. But it cannot work like that. Parents have responsibilities and they are totally accountable for their children's actions whether they know about them or not. Feigning ignorance can not and must not be an excuse.
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Old 31st January 2013, 17:23   #618
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If my kid goes out and damages someone's property or someone then its only fair I compensate for it.
Right it would be 'fair' on my part, but I am not bound to pay any compensation. And I may not be able to afford the damage. The person whose property is damaged has to claim from insurance.
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That is sort of my damages (or punishment) for my failures to control my kid's behavior.
I can offer advice & support on good behavior to my kid. But I cannot control or be responsible to their actions.
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If there are no set accountabilities then anybody and everybody would just feign ignorance and there will be total anarchy.
That is why we have legal system.
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The prime minister can just say there are no problems in India and pat thats it! No problems in India.
Prime Minister is responsible for *his* actions and is answerable to the people who elected him. PM is not responsible for his kids actions. At best he can advise his kids.
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Parents have responsibilities and they are totally accountable for their children's actions whether they know about them or not. Feigning ignorance can not and must not be an excuse.
Parents at best can help the kids and I don't think any parent can control their kids action. Note that kids are citizens of the country & they are bound act as responsible citizens, as per their age.
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Old 31st January 2013, 18:24   #619
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Right it would be 'fair' on my part, but I am not bound to pay any compensation. And I may not be able to afford the damage. The person whose property is damaged has to claim from insurance.
Whose insurance? And about the "bound" part, well is it really so? I might be misinformed but that boundation might be there. At least I think there is a law that if your underage kid takes your vehicle and causes an accident then the legal parent/guardian is booked.

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I can offer advice & support on good behavior to my kid. But I cannot control or be responsible to their actions.
Then who is responsible for kids actions? Or kids have a free ride in this country to do as they please? I never knew that when I was a kid. What a loss.

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That is why we have legal system.
The same legal system that will let off this guy for raping and murdering a girl?

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Parents at best can help the kids and I don't think any parent can control their kids action. Note that kids are citizens of the country & they are bound act as responsible citizens, as per their age.
Now you say kids are bound to act as responsible citizens. Bound by what?
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Old 1st February 2013, 00:24   #620
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

Hi guys.

I just came across this article/interview about juvenile system in India and our present questions/discussions which we have been having in these forums. He has in very simple non-legal terms laid out the law, and the thinking behind it.
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Old 1st February 2013, 08:24   #621
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Who knows, soon the prevelant anti social element in our country may be wielding armies of close- to- 18s with the promise of untold millions post a 6month detention,no matter what level of atrocities they commit.
The juvenile act is not recent - its been put to test over 2 decades. If somebody had a plan just like you mention, that would already in implementation. But like no adult want to end up in jail, no kid would want juvenile detention. And it would be an easy case to prosecute the owner of such an 'army'.

Another assumption of legal system is most of the citizens are law abiding, not just for fear of law but also for respect of fellow citizens. So most citizens (adults & kids) are not waiting to commit crime, rather not want to commit crime.

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At least I think there is a law that if your underage kid takes your vehicle and causes an accident then the legal parent/guardian is booked.
Parents can be prosecuted only if they have handed over the key. If parents claim the key was stolen, then they cannot be prosecuted.
PS: Police can frame charges (book) on anyone. But can they prosecute is the question.
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Now you say kids are bound to act as responsible citizens. Bound by what?
Just like any adult citizen is bound to act as responsible citizen. Kid citizens are no exception.

Parent can feel the shame & be 'morally' responsible for their kids actions. But they are not legally responsible and hence no compensation can be claimed from parents for the kids actions.

Last edited by msdivy : 1st February 2013 at 08:25.
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Old 1st February 2013, 10:10   #622
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Even the mother of the 6th accused is not sure of his age. But the so-called legal luminaries want him to be 17 years and 6 months. Now, don't tell me that juvenile board does not know about this. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/18280306.cms

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"Humein din taarikh ki nahin pato hai," his mother said in khari boli, a dialect spoken in these parts of western Uttar Pradesh. "I have no idea regarding either the day or date of admission. I just went to the school and told the teacher that this is my child, he is five years of age, write down his name. They started teaching him after that."
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:01   #623
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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Even the mother of the 6th accused is not sure of his age. But the so-called legal luminaries want him to be 17 years and 6 months. Now, don't tell me that juvenile board does not know about this.
As is said in Hindi,"Kanoon Andha Hai", the law is blind.
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:03   #624
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As is said in Hindi,"Kanoon Andha Hai", the law is blind.
My point is when the mother is not sure of the age, the juvenile board and other anti-social elements (yes, anybody defending this beast is anti-social) are busy giving him minor certificate. They don't do this without a purpose. What is that purpose??
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:23   #625
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Even the mother of the 6th accused is not sure of his age. But the so-called legal luminaries want him to be 17 years and 6 months.
17y 6m is age as per his 10th marks card isn't it? If you want to ignore his 10th marks card and consider him as an adult, then in future, it should be ok to ignore an adult's age proof & prosecute as a juvenile.
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As is said in Hindi,"Kanoon Andha Hai", the law is blind.
No country can be 100% fair to 100% of its citizens. No law can be 100% perfect and reason being there is no objective definition of perfect. What matters is if the law appear fair 100% of its people.

If the rapist is a juvenile when he committed the crime, then the law of the land for juvenile should apply. Why try to manipulate his date of birth? Due to the nature of the crime, he might get the higher punishment. Let us see what the court decides.

PS: My guess is he will get extended sentence, since juvenile centers cannot keep above 18.
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:32   #626
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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17y 6m is age as per his 10th marks card isn't it? If you want to ignore his 10th marks card and consider him as an adult, then in future, it should be ok to ignore an adult's age proof & prosecute as a juvenile.
usually this is what happens:
when a child is admitted to school, a birth certificate has to be provided. This date is used in the school records and then subsequently appears in all certificates. In this case, the mother herself is unsure of the date and the school does not have any proof that the date was copied from a legal/ official document. In such a scenario, can the 10th pass document be considered as enough proof to certify him as a juvenile?

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PS: My guess is he will get extended sentence, since juvenile centers cannot keep above 18.
My guess is that if he comes out anytime (after surviving other "juveniles" in that correction centre) in this decade, he will be lynched. If not for this case, then for something else that he may end up doing.
What many of us have been talking about is the risk that this may sacrifice another victim for us to realise that this beast should not have been tried as a juvenile in the first place.

Last edited by selfdrive : 1st February 2013 at 12:34.
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Old 1st February 2013, 13:03   #627
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Default re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide. The 4 others sentenced to DEATH.

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17y 6m is age as per his 10th marks card isn't it? If you want to ignore his 10th marks card and consider him as an adult, then in future, it should be ok to ignore an adult's age proof & prosecute as a juvenile.
True.
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In such a scenario, can the 10th pass document be considered as enough proof to certify him as a juvenile?
I think this would depend on how the law is written. Is the onus on the defendant to prove that he is a juvenile or is it on the prosecution to prove that he is not a juvenile? Either way, it would also dependent on how the law is worded for 'standard of evidence'.

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Thats why police did some advanced age investigation (bone test). Unfortunately the human body doesn't follow Gregorian calendar. Hence these tests determine age within the range of 2 years. This info is not useful in this case.
Someone said that there are better ways, but he hasn't told us what are the better ways.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3028584

Last edited by carboy : 1st February 2013 at 13:08.
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Old 1st February 2013, 13:04   #628
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In such a scenario, can the 10th pass document be considered as enough proof to certify him as a juvenile?
The whole world believes that document, including the US Visa office For all practical purposes 10th marks card is proof of data of birth. Why should be an exception in this case?
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In this case, the mother herself is unsure of the date
Thats why police did some advanced age investigation (bone test). Unfortunately the human body doesn't follow Gregorian calendar. Hence these tests determine age within the range of 2 years. This info is not useful in this case.
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Old 1st February 2013, 13:24   #629
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Based on which legal provision is his name being withheld? And under what circumstances will it be revealed?
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Old 1st February 2013, 13:50   #630
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The whole world believes that document, including the US Visa office For all practical purposes 10th marks card is proof of data of birth. Why should be an exception in this case?
I already said that the school authorities verify this date only on the basis of some earlier document issued to them. This 10th std date should be considered valid only if there is a valid birth certificate to attest the same.
The mother herself does not know the exact date, or claims not to know.

In any case, none of this should matter as the nature of the crime he has committed could (should?) be tried under the rarest of rare cases. If this can apply to adults, it should apply to so called juveniles too. The very idea of having juveniles was to offer an opportunity for them to improve after committing petty crimes. That does (should?) not be inferred as an escape clause for such gory crimes.

The US visa office considering this document is not a matter of justice denied (regardless of what people may look at it as! )
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