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Old 10th March 2015, 14:50   #826
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Suppose I say America is such an unsafe place that even a school kid may pull out a gun and shoot you dead anytime of the day, will you agree?
What? But that is true!! It's why I haven't been there. I know that everyone in America gives guns to their kids to go out and kill other kids.
I read it online, and read it in papers. It has to be true.

Edit: why are people quoting 4-5 year old Forbes reports?

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Old 10th March 2015, 15:42   #827
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Allow me to place a couple of facts here. The brave girl, along with her friend, got into a bus which was supposed to be plying commuters and she boarded the bus from one of the busiest place in central Delhi - Munirka, Saket

So, I didn't know till this incident that it is unsafe to board a bus that is supposed to be a public transport vehicle at busy places
A little factual correction: The bus wasn't a regular red/green/orange public commuter buses running in Delhi since years.
It was a white bus for 'contract carriage' that can be hired for personal functions, picnics, marriage services, school services and office services. Infact, a white CC permit bus cannot drop/pick passengers which are not on its list, it is a traffic offence and invites harsh penalties.

Furthermore, as a public conveyance commuter, I clearly know that each and every public service bus carries a board depicting a route number and the originating and ending destination. I am a guy and even then I wont board a suspicious non-route, non-standardized bus/vehicle howsoever lucrative the deal by the conductor may be. Even after all this, if I am not offered a ticket for my journey, I would be very suspicious and de-board the bus ASAP.

Boarding of such a bus by the couple for whatsoever reason/ignorance was sad.
But whats worse is that till date the situation of public commute has not improvised. People still stand to wait for long hours for the buses to arrive and are forced to look alternate non-authorized modes to commute(lifts in cabs, private vehicles etc). All this because of govt-corporate collusion wherein the govt would only authorize big corporations with bus capacity of 100-150 buses minimum to bid and run affairs. The small business-man with 2-3 buses(requiring capital of Rs.1 crore) even doesn't stand a chance. And the common public still suffers for long hours before reaching home after a tiring day.
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Old 10th March 2015, 15:46   #828
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

India has a HUGE gender conflict/imbalance problem that goes WAY beyond just physical abuse (rape), and that's a fact no matter which way we twist it.

I don't agree with the documentary in toto either, but why are we debating nuances of film-making instead of addressing the issue it raises? It doesn't matter if we're the only country in the world with a rape problem (we aren't), but a crime is a crime and even one wrong is one too many. Crime against women (or anyone) needs to be looked at humanely, not just as a statistic. I want my country to protect its women because it's the right and decent thing to do, not because I'm unhappy with our ranking in some table. That there are countries with similar or worse records is no consolation, no excuse and definitely not something to claim moral high ground about!

The documentary itself, it's not about giving voice to criminals or glorifying what they did, it's about bringing out in public what such people think which nobody else is willing to do. And the only difference I sometimes find between the convict, his lawyers and a large chunk of 'men' in public is that guy got caught and convicted. In their minds and words, they're all the same otherwise. The 'educated' lawyer proudly claimed on live TV that he'll do unspeakable things to ladies in his own family if they ever indulge in 'unacceptable' practices. Such mentality can't be named and shamed enough. What bothers me more is no 'Indian' journalist had the guts to make a similar documentary.

There's no perfect way to present this situation; it's a complex and inflammable topic and there will always be divided opinion but if absolute consensus was the rider to get anything done, nothing would ever get done.

I don't believe in suppressing opinion, esp. the destructive ones, because we can never fix what we don't understand. Have we ever wondered that one possible reason why these criminals are so twisted in their head is because they were never engaged in a conversation about propriety as adolescents or young adults, never molded to differentiate right from wrong and when they developed such dangerous tendencies, didn't have the emotional intelligence to weigh their mindset and actions with consequences?

It's all fine and dandy to call them monsters and demand that they be put to death ASAP (they probably deserve as much), but we can't hide from the truth that something created these monsters, and THAT SOMETHING is out there, alive and thriving. For me at least, the documentary was about giving voice to that something, so we can understand it and eventually destroy it. The convict is just a sample manifestation of a larger social mentality, not its entirety. There are millions just like him, some probably still toddlers who will grow up in similar circumstances and become even worse monsters if we don't do something about it.

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The story is true, the affected guy in question had posted in Quora about it. I did the thread couple of days back. The guy had the sense to blackout the professor's name in the screenshots he posted. Now the professor's name and photo is on mainstream media.
Extremely unfortunate, suffering a setback for no fault of his own. That being said, I can tell from experience that such apprehensions aren't as new-founded as some people want to believe, it's just that in this particular instance the person involved didn't hide behind a more 'politically correct' justification and chose to voice her real (however misplaced or unjustified) concerns.

India has been widely perceived as a dangerous place for women and Indians like this gentleman (and many more like him) are suffering the consequences of that long-standing perception, documentary or no documentary.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 10th March 2015 at 16:11.
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Old 10th March 2015, 15:56   #829
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by raghu.t.k View Post
Read this news article on the TOI, and not sure how much of the story on the email is true
The story is true, the affected guy in question had posted in Quora about it. I did the thread couple of days back. The guy had the sense to blackout the professor's name in the screenshots he posted. Now the professor's name and photo is on mainstream media.
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:09   #830
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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India has been widely perceived as a dangerous place for women and Indians like this gentleman (and many more like him) are suffering the consequences of that perception, documentary or no documentary.
How exactly do you think that perception is built? If they want to look into stats, they will probably think India is safer for women than most developed countries no matter how skewed or wrong the numbers maybe.

I think we Indians have a tendency to strongly highlight our deficiencies while downplaying our achievements. At least it is now clear that perception is very true and happening and we need to show what is true and not think of a Zebra when it is a horse.
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:25   #831
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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How exactly do you think that perception is built? If they want to look into stats, they will probably think India is safer for women than most developed countries no matter how skewed or wrong the numbers maybe.

I think we Indians have a tendency to strongly highlight our deficiencies while downplaying our achievements. At least it is now clear that perception is very true and happening and we need to show what is true and not think of a Zebra when it is a horse.
That perception is built on REALITY, unless you want to believe we don't have a problem. Forget rapes and crimes, there are enough 'Indian' statistics and evidence to show our horribly skewed sex ratio and a million other non-criminal aspects where females are getting a raw deal w.r.t. males (primary/secondary/higher education, healthcare, sanitation, you name it). Now we can either pretend that all these are just perceived injustices in some sinister plot to make us look bad globally, or agree that we actually have problems we need to fix.

Contrary to my previous post, I think I'm actually relieved that it wasn't an Indian journalist making this documentary. It's not unimaginable what would've been done to such a person by our indignant media, politicos and ignorant masses because their national 'honor' has been besmirched.
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:41   #832
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I've made this comment in another thread (traffic fines?) before, I'll make it again.

Certainty of punishment is one of the best deterrents of crime. We have the laws, we don't have enough enforcers and our courts are slow. Everything else (attitude of some of the lawyers / men, taking offence because a British (non-Indian) media made the documentary and didn't do a 'Jihadi John' documentary (validation issues)) is not directly relevant. Ensure the certainty of punishment and a generation or two down the line, nobody should speak that way.

Quoting from http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/bg148.pdf:

Quote:
That punishment deters crime is common sense. Observations of human behavior, the opinions of criminals themselves, simple facts about crime and punishment and sophisticated statistical studies all indicate that what matters most to prospective criminals is the certainty and severity of punishment. In other words, negative incentives matter in the business of crime.

...

Despite continuing calls for a “better way,” what criminals need most is evidence that their crimes do not pay. As Robert Bidinotto says, neither criminals nor the rest of us “drive a car 100 miles an hour toward a brick wall, because we know what the consequences will be.” Punishment works. Among other virtues, it gives the convicted a major incentive to reform. Even career criminals often give up crime because they don’t want to go back to prison. The most successful remedy, if it were economical, would impose unpleasantness on offenders every time they harmed others; predatory action invariably would produce bad consequences.

“The old prescription that punishment be swift, certain and severe is affirmed by modern social science.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...cle4280245.ece
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:45   #833
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
The German professor is probably generalizing a bit too far, but I can't really blame her for erring on the side of caution.
Will he / she deny admission to a white American student on the same grounds, because everyone knows they carry around guns and will go on a shooting spree at the drop of a hat?!

It must be true after all, we read so much about such incidents in papers, it must be part of their culture!
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:53   #834
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Found this interesting article on the documentary.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nati...cle2704869.ece
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Old 10th March 2015, 16:56   #835
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Will he / she deny admission to a white American student on the same grounds, because everyone knows they carry around guns and will go on a shooting spree at the drop of a hat?!

It must be true after all, we read so much about such incidents in papers, it must be part of their culture!
At the expense of sounding like a politico, you've quoted me out of context. I don't agree with what the professor did (read my posts subsequent to the one you've quoted), but I can't fault her for putting safety above other considerations. Put in a similar position, what would you do? Shouldn't we rather be thinking how we got to a situation where people are making such rash and unreasonable presumptions about us, however wrong they may be in making them?

I won't comment about or generalize a country/culture I have no experience living in (except a few short visits), but I do live in India and I've come across plenty of examples to KNOW victimizing women IS very much a part of our culture. I personally know plenty of Americans, and though opinion is divided there too, they acknowledge their country has a gun problem and are trying to fix it rather than worry how it makes them look globally.
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Old 10th March 2015, 17:14   #836
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
That perception is built on REALITY, unless you want to believe we don't have a problem. Forget rapes and crimes, there are enough 'Indian' statistics and evidence to show our horribly skewed sex ratio and a million other non-criminal aspects where females are getting a raw deal w.r.t. males (primary/secondary/higher education, healthcare, sanitation, you name it). Now we can either pretend that all these are just perceived injustices in some sinister plot to make us look bad globally, or agree that we actually have problems we need to fix.

Contrary to my previous post, I think I'm actually relieved that it wasn't an Indian journalist making this documentary. It's not unimaginable what would've been done to such a person by our indignant media, politicos and ignorant masses because their national 'honor' has been besmirched.
Reality by what proof? If you take the skewed sex ratio as a stat, then we can always quote the # of registered rapes as well. One cannot be taken at face value and other be denied.

There are a lot of issues for women around the world. Women are paid less compared to men in USA as well and it is being highligted by their media. USA is a well developed country yet have issues treating women equally.

We are not claiming India is a haven for women. Ofcourse we have our problems just like any other country in the world. But this doc has made it a issue local to India. It is not a problem that will vanish in a night. It needs long term planning and a change in mindset none of which this documentary has helped to highlight or proposed a solution for it.

The only way to control this crime (rape) would be for stricter punishments and more law enforcement people on road. We are not short of human resource and we need to make best use of it to protect our people.

As for your last line, you are simply sensationalizing things, just like the media in our country. Media has a free reign in our country and report on silliest of things and kindle unwanted emotions through selective reporting. Arnab, Burka, Rajdeep, Sagarika are all still alive and healthy despite their antics every other day. So we need not worry as to what would have happened had an Indian taken it.

An Indian did co-produce it but was conveniently left out of the credits since she didn't succumb to their agenda of wrongly shaming the Indian culture.

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
You clearly view this as an us Vs. them situation, which I don't, so any further debate is pointless. It's us Vs. ourselves, and only we can fix it.

As far as I'm concerned the documentary, as flawed as it may be, has achieved its primary objective; it has kick-started a long-overdue debate on women's (mis)treatment in this country and brought it front & center. Better late than never, and I hope it leads to correct and long-lasting solutions rather than partisan bickering. Over & Out.
Kind of you to stop debating. It is pointless to argue when you don't see the point as well. It is our task to help empower women (which is happening as well). But since this documentary has started to affect the lives of people who are totally not related to the crime, I agree it has achieved its purpose of shaming the whole of India for the crime committed by 5 low lives.

Men are being viewed as monsters now and the Rohtak girls' bravado (false) isn't being widely reported as it was when they thrashed the boys.

Media in our country

Last edited by SchumiFan : 10th March 2015 at 17:39.
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Old 10th March 2015, 17:28   #837
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Reality by what proof? If you take the skewed sex ratio as a stat, then we can always quote the # of registered rapes as well. One cannot be taken at face value and other be denied.

There are a lot of issues for women around the world. Women are paid less compared to men in USA as well and it is being highligted by their media. USA is a well developed country yet have issues treating women equally.

We are not claiming India is a haven for women. Ofcourse we have our problems just like any other country in the world. But this doc has made it a issue local to India. It is not a problem that will vanish in a night. It needs long term planning and a change in mindset none of which this documentary has helped to highlight or proposed a solution for it.

The only way to control this crime (rape) would be for stricter punishments and more law enforcement people on road. We are not short of human resource and we need to make best use of it to protect our people.

As for your last line, you are simply sensationalizing things, just like the media in our country. Media has a free reign in our country and report on silliest of things and kindle unwanted emotions through selective reporting. Arnab, Burka, Rajdeep, Sagarika are all still alive and healthy despite their antics every other day. So we need not worry as to what would have happened had an Indian taken it.

An Indian did co-produce it but was conveniently left out of the credits since she didn't succumb to their agenda of wrongly shaming the Indian culture.
You clearly view this as an us Vs. them situation, which I don't, so any further debate is pointless. It's us Vs. ourselves, and only we can fix it. It's not simply a 'nationality' problem, it's a 'human' problem.

As far as I'm concerned the documentary, as flawed as it may be, has achieved its primary objective; it has kick-started a long-overdue debate on women's (mis)treatment in this country and brought it front & center. It was intended (as all journalism should be) to ask questions that need to be asked, the answers and solutions will hopefully follow. Better late than never, and I hope it leads to correct and long-lasting solutions rather than partisan bickering. Over & Out.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 10th March 2015 at 17:36.
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Old 10th March 2015, 17:49   #838
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
I have known of cases of consensual sex which had suddenly turned in to rape and a case was filed.

72% of rape accused are victims' boyfriends: Mumbai Police Commissioner


I am sure an alarming number of actual victims wouldn't have reported the crime, while such relationship troubles are reported as rape.

This is what happens when we ask for draconian measures(immediate arrest, non-bailable) built into the law.

As Bhpian Dhabhar Behram says, there is only one right way of doing it, and that is speedy trial and quicker justice, so that the real accused gets sentenced soon and the falsely accused is set free with minimal damage.
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Old 10th March 2015, 18:07   #839
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

^^ A common tagline I often come across in news items about many rape complaints given to police is " I was enticed with false promises and raped(!)" or " He promised to marry me and raped me". (I am translating from Tamil!)
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Old 10th March 2015, 18:30   #840
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I feel the issue here is different. The documentary also clearly and correctly tries to highlight that but we, as always, show our usual knee jerk reactions and deviate from the main topic. The main issue here is not what these people did. That was inhumane and they will certainly be spending all their time in jail and 99% be awarded the death penalty. The more important issue is that why should such an incident occur. And that has very deep roots in the way our society has always functioned. Women have always been suppressed and oppressed. In this context, Aamir khan's show where he interviewed few people was very intriguing. They all openly claimed that they beat and abuse there wives since that is the only way of life they know of and how in their societies women are second to men and have to always stay at the man's beck and call. They are regularly beaten and abused so that they don't dare to question their position. Now such men and children growing up in such societies where they have witnessed regular incidents of beatings, forced sexual activities at the hands of your husband itself etc, will also nurture the same thoughts. These are further strengthened into beliefs by our so called religious, spiritual and political leaders, examples of which are plenty and can be easily googled. All this is good till it doesn't get media highlight in their villages. Women keep suffering and life goes on. Problem starts when these men drift and migrate to cities where suddenly everything they have been taught starts appearing wrong and false. And due to their strong chauvinistic values coupled with drugs and alcohol, they easily start trying to ascertain their way of life on these women.

Honestly I don't think this will go in the coming decade also or even in 2 decades. Its a very slow change that will gradually seep in once development and education overwhelms and starts challenging their way of life. Until that time we can just hope to create some strict laws with harsh punishments to inculcate a sense of fear and thus hope to make it safer for women.
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