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Old 12th March 2015, 11:38   #856
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

A few years of economic liberalization, and with a few dollars in hand, we think that we as a country has arrived, and the whole world is conspiring to malign us. If you get off that high pedestal that you imagined for yourself, you would know that the world does not take us that seriously.

Udwin had no noble intentions than make a good film. BBC, or for that matter any TV channel, don't air documentaries to reform the world. They just air programs that their audience like to watch. They had no noble intentions. But, big deal, none here has too.

I watched the documentary yesterday, since the other torrent I was downloading did not arrive in time. I didn't find anything derogatory to the country as a whole. But I found it hard-hitting as far as the Indian male mentality is concerned. It didn't take any time to realize that the mirror is being held against our faces when the camera was showing Mukesh and his lawyers. No wonder the Indian male finds it so disturbing, and instead of standing up and taking notice, they scream : "Attack on India", conveniently.

No, I repeat, there is no attack on India as a country. It is an attack on the male dominated society of India. Those who shy away from looking at it would leave this country in the dumps.

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Originally Posted by WorkingGuru View Post
The British have only one agenda, to attack, defame & ruin the social structure of India.
Attachment 1348861
Surprised that people turn to fake internet forwards to propagate their agenda. Did you ponder for a second why a proud Englishman speaking in his native tongue would speak in such amateurish English?

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Old 12th March 2015, 11:42   #857
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Am not sure if you realized the point you were trying to make here?!

The documentary was made to be broadcast on BBC, which is an English channel. If it was a Russian channel who made the documentary, did you expect them to make the documentary in any other language, than Russian?!
So you agree that primary agenda was to create a sensational film on one of the issue in India and publicize it internationally.

Regards,

JLS
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Old 12th March 2015, 11:46   #858
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I have refrained from commenting in this thread for long, but guess it is the limit of stereotyping people. I could not refrain myself from posting when I came across this article from prominent writer, Shobha De.

Just look at this excerpt:

Quote:
Come on, Mr. Home Minister , what exactly are you "furious" about? That the world will soon know what our men in India think of us - the women of this country? Or that India will get a 'bad name' internationally, thanks to the documentary aptly titled "India's Daughter"?
Source: http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/indias-d...ome-cheatsheet

Please pay attention to the underlined part. That is the limit of stereotyping. I don't know why should we discuss what low-lives like Mukesh (whatever) thinks, as the average Indian men, as far as I know have not assigned him to be our representative in any realm of life. But statements like one quoted above coming from a widely read, educated and a sane author like Shobha De is disgusting to say the least. To paint all you like in the same shade you prefer is pretty disgusting of you. I fail to understand that how a full-time, dedicated writer like her makes so irresponsible statement.
Unfortunately I have to say, her thought is not that good either.
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Old 12th March 2015, 11:54   #859
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by JLS View Post
So you agree that primary agenda was to create a sensational film on one of the issue in India and publicize it internationally.

Regards,

JLS
You refer to this as merely a sensation?
And do you also feel that if not for this film the world does not know about the plight of women in India? Women from a variety of countries have been subjected to rape in India - Russians, Swedes, Japanese, etc. You imagine embassies are unaware, and they consider India safe for women?

Open your eyes, and look around.

As for the documentary and as far as BBC is concerned, this is just another series for them on a particular topic; just as famine in Somalia or Ebola would be just another topic for you. However, in India, pretending that this issue does not exist is being hypocritical.

Well summarized below :

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
This is exactly the same emotions at play in rape cases that are not reported because it will bring dishonour to the family if the neighborhood knows about it - more so when the rapist is related to the family.

Now substitute "world" in place of "neighborhood" and "country" in place of "family" and you will see the parallel.
Now that's an excellent post to put things in perspective. Well-said!
BBC documentary or not, all the world already knows about how unsafe India is for women.
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Old 12th March 2015, 12:16   #860
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I am a little confused about members calling the documentary propoganda. Now the definition of propoganda has been a bit of problem. Several decades ago it was pretty much a neutral term, but these days, and the way it is used in this context is very much alligned to the current day use of the term. According to the Internet (!?)

Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented.

A documentary, again according to the same Internet (!?):

A documentary film is a nonfictional picture intended to document some aspect of reality, primarily for the purposes of instruction or maintaining a historical record

I dont think you will find any documentary which does not use facts selectively. Whether that is lying is often more in the eye of the beholder then anything.

However, what I fail to understand is this notion that is being projected, that there is an agenda being pursued of making India look bad?

That is akin to a conspiracy theory. With that we are entering the realms of the proverbial nutcases. Please take your seat next to the guy who believed the moon landings were fake.

There have been many documentaries about rape, violation of womens' right across the globe. Many different countries, including western countries. And yes, this is not the first one to go viral either.

My home country the Netherlands has had its fair share of documentaries on just about every negative aspect of Dutch society. From the Dutch role in the era of colonies, slavery to current immigrants problem, right wing extremists and Dutch national joining as IS fighters. All out there in the media, Internet, youtube, television etc. I am absolutely convinced none of this documentaries are completely accurate. They all use facts selectively at best. Do I think there is an agenda being pursued to make the Netherlands look bad?

I dont think so. I think we should talk less about the documentary, the reason why it was made, and focus as other members have pointed out repeatedly, about the broader issue at hand, which I havent seen anybody deny outright: The position of women in Indian society is far from perfect. And that is putting it mildly. This rape case illustrates a particular (nasty and horrible) angle to the problem at hand.

With the internet, social media etc there is an abundance of information and opinions to say the least. Whether some of that offends, in particular how a topic is adressed or brought into the public domain for attention, is a personal matter.

But as they often say, being offended doesnt make you right perse. More importantly, I would urge everybody to look way past the various messengers and formats, but dont miss out at the real topic, in this case, the position of women in Indian society at large.

Jeroen
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Old 12th March 2015, 12:23   #861
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I am a little confused about members calling the documentary propoganda.
There have been many documentaries about rape, violation of womens' right across the globe. Many different countries, including western countries. And yes, this is not the first one to go viral either.

My home country the Netherlands has had its fair share of documentaries on just about every negative aspect of Dutch society. From the Dutch role in the era of colonies, slavery to current immigrants problem, right wing extremists and Dutch national joining as IS fighters. All out there in the media, Internet, youtube, television etc. I am absolutely convinced none of this documentaries are completely accurate. They all use facts selectively at best. Do I think there is an agenda being pursued to make the Netherlands look bad?

I dont think so. I think we should talk less about the documentary, the reason why it was made, and focus as other members have pointed out repeatedly, about the broader issue at hand, which I havent seen anybody deny outright: The position of women in Indian society is far from perfect. And that is putting it mildly. This rape case illustrates a particular (nasty and horrible) angle to the problem at hand.

With the internet, social media etc there is an abundance of information and opinions to say the least. Whether some of that offends, in particular how a topic is adressed or brought into the public domain for attention, is a personal matter.

But as they often say, being offended doesnt make you right perse. More importantly, I would urge everybody to look way past the various messengers and formats, but dont miss out at the real topic, in this case, the position of women in Indian society at large.

Jeroen
WE, haven't yet, matured to the point, that we are able to criticize ourselves, or mock ourselves. What makes it even worse, is when an outsider does that to us. That, to me, is the root of the problem, with this documentary, for US.
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Old 12th March 2015, 12:23   #862
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I managed to download just before it was taken off. I must say I am mighty impressed, the convict saying what I expected him to say. What shocked me were two things - the defence lawyers and also police brutality on the protesters. Overall it is a brilliant documentary. I rate it as a must see.
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Old 12th March 2015, 13:35   #863
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
WE, haven't yet, matured to the point, that we are able to criticize ourselves, or mock ourselves. What makes it even worse, is when an outsider does that to us. That, to me, is the root of the problem, with this documentary, for US.
That sums up the whole furore pretty well. Nobody is disputing the horrible image in the mirror, they're just furious the hand holding the mirror is an 'outsider'. How dare they, right?

It doesn't take much to be indignant, takes a lot to stand up and fix something. I don't want or expect any (or all) of us to become crusaders overnight, it would be a good start if we started in our own homes and families, doing away with the small or big, overt or subtle ways in which women are treated below par. That would go a long way in the larger picture.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 12th March 2015 at 13:40.
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Old 12th March 2015, 13:36   #864
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
This is exactly the same emotions at play in rape cases that are not reported because it will bring dishonour to the family if the neighborhood knows about it - more so when the rapist is related to the family. End result is that while the criminal walks away smiling & even repeats the offence which is again condoned, the victim not only suffers in silence all her lifetime, but also sort of feels that she is responsible for what happened.

Now substitute "world" in place of "neighborhood" and "country" in place of "family" and you will see the parallel.

To say that after seeing the documentary, the world will see India as rape-land and all Indian men as rapists is sort of like saying that the World sees all Americans as racist because some racial killings happen(ed) in the US.

The documentary should be aired in India so that we can know the extent of the malaise and atleast have steps in place to avoid/deter this going forward.
I agree to what you have said, every word of it. But we live in a world; where each has to come clean if any person points a finger and calls us a murderer, rapist, raciest etc...

Remember what happened in Nagaland, this happened because the men there were desperate to prove they are clean, so killing an alleged rapist will absolve them of that stigma.

I have heard a similar story, where a Male teacher in Trichur was beaten to pulp and his entire family including his kids and wife committed suicide because a 4 year old student just said "sir" when the parents asked who raped her.

It was later found out that the little girls calls a relative sir, seeing her mother calling him sir.

Vigilante justice is what will spread out now, and such documentaries do play a great role in sparking that violent thought in every man's head; that if we don't act now we will be branded a rapist by the rest of the world forever. That thought itself is enough to spark widespread riots and some anti-socials will always infiltrate such crowds and make this all uncontrollable.

As per me what one can do is ensure he is nice to women and see them with respect, you have no obligation to correct others, for that we have law of the land, you can seek help but don't try to be a super hero yourself. You never know what the truth of the matter is, so don't be a judge. If you are an unfortunate spectator to any such incident, make sure the perpetuators are brought to justice, being the hand of justice is not right, that is why we have law in place. Provide ample proof so that all escape routes are blocked.

Now having said all that, what do we need to ensure justice prevails?

We need to ensure there is proper governance, any public servant failing to deliver what he/she is supposed to do, needs to be a punished, the constitution needs to amend that and strict mechanisms to ensure action is taken needs to be implemented first.

We need better street lights, better police patrolling, should prevent night gangs who occasionally do objectionable things, including hooliganism from assembling at the same spot, cops should catch hooligans, I have seen for many years Delhi silently witnessing biker gangs near Bangla sahib Gurudwara taking the entire city into their control at the wee hours of every Saturday, things like these needs to be prevented first, allowing this type of hooliganism gives people a feeling that anything goes here. Good people lose faith in the system.

There should be proper reporting mechanisms, and there should be an agreed turnaround time for the cops to reach for help, this should be tested and re tested every week and the results need to be accessible by the people to ensure that confidence in the system improves; there should be neighbourhood watch setup, in every neighbourhood. Cameras needs to be installed, people should get a feeling that someone is always watching them, recruit more cops. Use the tax money for better governance and not for fancy things.

This is specifically what we should ask from the government, there should be well defined KPIs for each Ministry/Department and regular report cards need to be published by their team and the public should be able to scrutinize the rating given to these departments.

If a government fails there should be mechanism to dissolve them. this would keep the Government on the toes and only performers would be allowed to rule and non-performers, sacked. Let heads roll.

Till we don't have a system to do this we will keep on fighting for our honour on online forums like these. Let’s move ahead and make our voices heard, and tell the government to do their work or leave. Hurting innocent people or people who are not proven guilty to restore our honour will not lead us anywhere and will make this country a horrible place to live, both for Men and Woman.

I would like to start a thread where we can discuss what actions we can take for each issues like, broken street lights, hooligans, street Romeos etc without breaking the law. Mods, kindly confirm if I am allowed to do so while being within the rules set by the TBHP admin team.

Let each one of us take the first step towards making our surroundings, conducive as well as safer for our women, children and men. We fight all day to ensure we provide for our family, social stigma is the last thing I would like to go to bed with.


Pramod

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Old 12th March 2015, 13:46   #865
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

The victim of that tragedy was a woman and a man. This documentary has highlighted the plight of the woman but hasn't shed light on what has happened of the man. Granted, he was not available for contact due to the events itself. But when it has given air to the thoughts of the rapist (his 'supposed' mindset) it must have also been highlighted that the boy fought to save her from that tragedy but was beaten badly as well.

Now that would have helped alleviate some miscontrued notions about men in India while providing the viewers an insight into the 'victims mindset'.

We have had a boy who has suffered already because of the bad publicity that this doc has caused, being denied an opportunity at a better education. Whats more to come, we will have to wait and watch.

And why is the view of the rapist being noted as the general mindset about women in India? We can probably show a movie about a female goddess and tell them how we have revered women in India, which will again not say the ground reality.

I wonder if Ms.Udwin would have thought of interviewing the person who violated her? If she wanted to understand what's inside their minds. Seems like it has not happened for unknown reasons.

I am not clear of the purpose of this documentary yet and as to why it was taken. This tragedy was widely publicized and gained a lot of attention among the people of the country. So then what's the need for this to be taken and why does it need to be shown on Women's day as if every women undergoes this in some stage of her life.
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Old 12th March 2015, 14:06   #866
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Many parts I am sure in the documentary are scripted for bringing out the emotions in us.

I remember reading that Nirbhaya suffered a massive cardiac arrest in the air ambulance and was somehow stabilised but she never regained consciousness after that.

In the movie her mother says Nirbhaya held her hands and said she was sorry for the the trouble she caused and then 'the lines on the monitor went flat'

Very cinematic & emotionally striking but not factual. Even wikipedia confirms what I remember.

Quote:
During the six-hour flight by air-ambulance to Singapore on 27 December, the woman suddenly went into a "near collapse", which a later report described as a cardiac arrest.[50] The doctors on the flight created an arterial line to stabilise her, but she had been without pulse and blood pressure for nearly three minutes and never regained consciousness in Singapore.[51]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_De...ment_and_death

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Old 12th March 2015, 14:08   #867
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by WorkingGuru View Post
The British have only one agenda, to attack, defame & ruin the social structure of India.
This was very interesting. But I am unable to verify its authenticity.

Searched using the dates and Macualay
http://www.portcullis.parliament.uk/

I have a strong feeling this might be a hoax. Can you please verify its authenticity.
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Old 12th March 2015, 14:12   #868
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
That sums up the whole furore pretty well. Nobody is disputing the horrible image in the mirror, they're just furious the hand holding the mirror is an 'outsider'. How dare they, right?
Not exactly. But if an ugly duckling holds up a mirror to show my ugliness to me, it will irritate me! Is our society incapable of introspection? Did the crowd which congregated on the streets of Delhi after the Nirbhaya incident, come after seeing some documentary?

Her own country has a recent issue of young girls being sexually exploited, and the case being hushed up for political correctness! And her country is no.3 when it comes to pedophilia! Did she make documentaries about those? I wish our film makers go there and make documentaries, to hold a mirror to their face!
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Old 12th March 2015, 14:45   #869
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Not exactly. But if an ugly duckling holds up a mirror to show my ugliness to me, it will irritate me!
Which only reaffirms the fact that we're ugly too, irrespective of whether the other duckling is ugly or not.

Quote:
Is our society incapable of introspection?
Incapable? I don't think so. Unwilling? Probably.

Quote:
Did the crowd which congregated on the streets of Delhi after the Nirbhaya incident, come after seeing some documentary?
I was there, and women I've known for years were there. And do you know what the biggest concern for women in the crowd was? Take a guess. It wasn't avoiding the police lathi-charge, it was avoiding getting groped, in a demonstration against rape.


Quote:
Her own country has a recent issue of young girls being sexually exploited, and the case being hushed up for political correctness! And her country is no.3 when it comes to pedophilia! Did she make documentaries about those? I wish our film makers go there and make documentaries, to hold a mirror to their face!
And I wish all filmmakers would create content based on merit, irrespective of who came from where. I have friends who are struggling documentary filmmakers (my own wife is from a related field). You can't even begin to imagine the challenges they face, mostly from our own people, not 'outsiders'.

Who in your opinion is entitled to make this particular documentary then? Don't say an Indian, because someone will probably start a 'regionalism' argument about how the person from ABC region has no business pointing a finger at XYZ region. Look at this very forum, there are plenty of examples of regional hatred narrated in various threads. A well-meaning thread of my own was shut down because the topic was 'regionally sensitive' according to moderators.

Perfection can't be a pre-requisite for critical inquiry. If we waited for proverbial "ones who haven't sinned" to cast the first stone, no sin will ever be questioned because ultimately we're all part of the problem, and need to be part of the solution too.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 12th March 2015 at 14:55.
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Old 12th March 2015, 14:50   #870
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

^^ My opinion is, nobody should have made the film. Not when the matter is in court. Not when the accused are under death sentence and have appealed. Now after all this publicity, the judiciary and even the president may have no choice but to uphold the sentence.

Now before you jump the gun asking "do they not deserve the death penalty?', let me say they do, but the due process of law should not be influenced by trial by media.

But I concede that had the film not been banned, it would have sank without a trace.
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