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Old 13th March 2015, 13:56   #901
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

The ban brigade is asking for a ban so that nobody sees it. The liberal brigade is not asking for a compulsory viewing, are they? Just let the viewer choose.

And I am appalled how people quote rape statistics in foreign countries to support the ban. For all I know, no civilized country shies away from the problem like we do. They do acknowledge they have a problem and is working on it, and not hiding behind ancient culture, sacred scriptures etc.

And then, the statistics that they quote are from countries where every crime, small or big, gets reported. Here "uncles" who rape kids go scot-free. The girls get "advised" to stay away from the uncles and are often censured for bringing disrepute to the family. I know one such case in our apartment complex where the "uncle" was let off with a push and a slap after he tried to have unnatural sex with a 6 year old girl. The father didn't have the courage to take it to police, so the family moved out. The "uncle" is now the head of security of the apartment complex. So much for security.

And, how many from the rape statistics of UK and Australia have cases where girls get gang-raped, metal rods get pushed into their privates, or raped and eyes gouged out, or raped and hung, or raped and burned alive? The statistics they try to find solace on contain assaults, statutory rapes, groping etc which are far cry from the types which we are dealing with here. Where in the civilized world we have organized riots where they go around searching for women and children to rape, murder and burn? All in the name of natural reaction?

And where else in the whole world do you find apologists for all the above acts? In the guise of disrepute to our rich and ancient culture?

Disgusting!
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Old 13th March 2015, 14:48   #902
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
The ban brigade is asking for a ban so that nobody sees it. The liberal brigade is not asking for a compulsory viewing, are they? Just let the viewer choose.

And I am appalled how people quote rape statistics in foreign countries to support the ban. For all I know, no civilized country shies away from the problem like we do. They do acknowledge they have a problem and is working on it, and not hiding behind ancient culture, sacred scriptures etc.

And where else in the whole world do you find apologists for all the above acts? In the guise of disrepute to our rich and ancient culture?

Disgusting!
Bang on Buddy. By the way, what CULTURE really (sic!)? Conservative, Patriarchal, Racist, Discriminatory, Superstitious and what-not!
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Old 13th March 2015, 14:49   #903
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

In my opinion, what is more appalling is naming somebody 'ban Brigade', and considering self as liberal brigade!

I do not care for a ban. But I object to stereotyping based on a selective sampling and creating sensation. However this LIBERAL brigade is trying to enforce that there may not be any other opinion than theirs.

Projecting behavior of few select samples on entire population is what you consider being liberal, I wish you all the best.

Best regards,
JLS
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Old 13th March 2015, 15:20   #904
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I don't think the problem is with rape of a girl, brutality she was meted with, mentality and behaviour of Indian men towards their women, Documentary film, Sensational marketing, etc. etc.
To me the actual problem is pathetically long legal process and 'injustice' met to victim's family in the name of justice.
Of all the issues highlighted above, the overhaul of judicial process and accountability of the judiciary has been set, all other things will automatically fall in line quickly.
Parallel example, all the pan-chewing, traffic signal jumping Indians start behaving in No time as soon as their flight lands in foreign country.
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Old 13th March 2015, 15:44   #905
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

@ carwatcher, I agree.

Let me make a small point to explain my PoV on what is Culture issue v/s what is law and order issue.

Dowry is cultural issue. Why? Despite laws against it, there is wide acceptance of this practice in Indian society. Also it is a distinct Indian issue. Culture issues need to be addressed through education and documentaries etc as they are wide spread and also have wide acceptance within society.

Rape is law and order issue. Why? There is very less acceptance of rapists in society, even amongst criminals. It is animal type instinct, not attributable to Indians only, you find this behavior across all. It is a law and order issue in my opinion, and would not solve through education and documentaries, but through strict and swift enforcement of laws.

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Old 13th March 2015, 15:59   #906
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by JLS View Post
I do not care for a ban. But I object to stereotyping based on a selective sampling and creating sensation. However this LIBERAL brigade is trying to enforce that there may not be any other opinion than theirs.

Projecting behavior of few select samples on entire population is what you consider being liberal, I wish you all the best.

Best regards,
JLS
I guess the freedom of speech and freedom of expression are convenient tools, especially when one frees himself/herself from taking responsibility of possible reactions. Guess actions are covered under such freedoms, but reactions are not.

I think given the opinions formed in this thread speak a lot: bashing of culture (as if that rapist stands as a perfect brand ambassador for 1000s of years), blanket opinion about Indian men - no matter what education, and thinking less of other country men who happen to have a different set of thoughts than what foreign masters expect.
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:00   #907
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@ carwatcher, I agree.


Dowry is cultural issue. Why? Despite laws against it, there is wide acceptance of this practice in Indian society.

Rape is law and order issue. Why? There is very less acceptance of rapists in society, even amongst criminals.

Regards,

JLS
Wrong! Because:
1. In many parts of India, the society at large, overlooks young boys, having some 'FUN'. Quote - "Boys make mistakes, why hang them?"
2. In almost all of India, Marital Rape, is perfectly LEGAL, and moreover, socially Accepted. Why? Because, a woman is a POSSESSION, within a marriage!
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:02   #908
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Rape IS very much a social problem in India. Mukesh's assertion that "ek haath se thaali nahi bajathe" is a mentality shared by many. Now, if you argue that it is an anpadh's view, listen to his lawyers. Are they illiterate too? And I have heard many, including educated, well-traveled, software engineers ask, "What was she doing at 9pm at night with a male friend"? And some politician says: "To avoid rape, women must sit at home". The words differ, but they mean the same thing that Mukesh said, "She brought it upon her".

Rape IS a social problem here. There is a rape problem all over the world. India has a bigger problem - that its society does not consider it a big enough problem to be dealt with, but something that could be brushed under the carpet and pretend as if nothing happened.

Honour of the country, rich ancient culture etc be damned, we need this problem fixed ASAP.

Last edited by blacksport : 13th March 2015 at 16:22.
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:25   #909
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

And that's where the real issues get sidelined. When you start disrespecting opinions of others by calling names like "ban brigade" since all you have got is that "liberal brigade" flag and abusing whole of society and men in india per se as lower grade humans and perverts.

Sorry to bust your myth, but not all men are like that "head of security - uncle". They would be few in number - but yes no denying a menace which should be dealt with tougher punitive laws. So let's hear it from you on how did you oppose the selection of this pervert as head of security in your apartment complex?

And as @JLS mentioned - to hell with ban or no ban. I'm contending the way film has been produced with maligned intentions and jugglery. My opinion is that it hasn't been made with purest of intentions. This is MY opinion and I have all rights to it, WITHOUT being called names.

On brutality of rape and occurrence of the same in India, I am with you and have even mentioned the same point in my previous posts citing need of tougher laws

Last edited by 1lokesh : 13th March 2015 at 16:29. Reason: correcting typos
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:39   #910
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Cultural views and beliefs, real or perceived, will take a long time to change. May be a generation or two. No amount of ranting will compress that process in to an year or two. In the meantime, it doesn't hurt to use our discretion and be careful. It is a fact. As simple as that.

Even in the US of A, I don't think it will be safe for one to move around anywhere, anytime of the day, as they wish.

As someone posted earlier, women should be "free to dress as they please, go anywhere anytime of the day or night, and meet anybody as they please". In ideal conditions, yes. But ideal conditions do not exist as yet. Till then?

And how many people here are, idealistic opinions apart, really comfortable with that kind of freedom of movement for the women? Cross your heart and tell!
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:45   #911
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And how many people here are, idealistic opinions apart, really comfortable with that kind of freedom of movement for the women? Cross your heart and tell!
I certainly Am!

"comfortable with freedom of movement for women" - What are you talking about? They are Humans, not Cows! Who are WE, TO BE OR NOT BE, comfortable with what women Do or Want to Do?

Last edited by roy_libran : 13th March 2015 at 16:50.
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:46   #912
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Sorry to bust your myth, but not all men are like that "head of security - uncle". They would be few in number - but yes no denying a menace which should be dealt with tougher punitive laws. So let's hear it from you on how did you oppose the selection of this pervert as head of security in your apartment complex?
As with the brigade who is "always right", you fail to understand the problem. The problem is not with the uncles, but the society. Because it always finds it convenient to brush it under the carpet.

The uncles could be dealt with the using the law, but who will deal with those people who think that dealing with it will bring disrepute to the family/country?

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I certainly Am!

"comfortable with freedom of movement for women" - What are you talking about? They are Humans, not Cows!
Reminded me of a cartoon I saw yesterday: It is safer to be a cow in India than a woman. You get a 5 year jail for killing a cow. But for raping....?

Last edited by blacksport : 13th March 2015 at 16:50.
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Old 13th March 2015, 16:54   #913
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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.......it doesn't hurt to use our discretion and be careful........
There, you said it yourself! They keyword is OUR (as in personal, singular) discretion. There are places in India and abroad even men tread carefully at certain hours, and using common sense to stay safe is sound advice. What isn't is someone else defining that 'discretion' and shoving it down someone else's throat, which is what most Indian women, even in educated families have to put up with in various guises; unwanted advice, diktats, threats, abuse and violence, often from within the family.

Quote:
......comfortable with that kind of freedom of movement for the women?.......
And then you had to ruin it with this. I'm all for 'everyone' using their own judgment for personal safety, but I'll never accept 'enforced discretion'. Would you?

My wife is from the NCR region (which is probably as lawless as it gets in India), so I know a thing or two about how bad it really is there. Was I concerned for her safety? Sure. Did I throttle her independence to move around and do stuff she likes doing because of that? No Sir! She's smart enough to not take her well-being for granted, and I was glad to step in if/whenever she asked me to. Neither she nor I would've wanted it any other way.

There are no 'ideal' conditions, there will never be. That even developed nations suffer from these same problems is proof enough that 'Utopia' will never be anything more than a concept. It's better to hold ourselves to reasonable, civilized standards. And how will those come about? By waiting for ideal conditions, or by more and more people displaying behavior that should really be the norm, not the exception? Something to ponder as a nation.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 13th March 2015 at 17:07.
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Old 13th March 2015, 17:05   #914
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And then you had to ruin it with this. I'm all for 'everyone' using their own judgment for personal safety, but I'll never accept 'enforced discretion'. Would you?
How did I ruin it? Read it in the context of safety for women especially. It applies as much to the US of A as India. I certainly will not be comfortable with a female member of my family moving about alone at late hours. I will certainly try and make them avoid it for their own safety, call it enforcement if you will.
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Old 13th March 2015, 17:11   #915
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

The real issue is the horrible and disgusting way women & girls are treated in Indian society today.

If it's not because of the culture, then it has to be because of the mindset of the majority of Indian males.

The argument is between two sides.

On one side, we have those who recognise these terrible, terrible deficiencies in our society, want to fix them, and make sure the country becomes safer for women & girls.

On the other side, we have those who prefer to close their eyes, pretend as if everything is great, believe nothing is wrong with Indian society because of its "great culture", think Indian women & girls are much more safe than their counterparts in every other country, and that those "racist", "colonial" foreigners have a single-point agenda of showing the country in "poor light". In other words, they want to live in perpetual denial mode. They can neither see for themselves that which is so blatantly obvious, nor do they want to recognise something that has been presented as clearly as possible to them.

Truly, truly sad! And very, very worrying!

In other news, the victim of that heinous Park Street gang-rape passed away today.

RIP brave lady. Every right thinking Indian male deeply mourns your death. That despicable assault on you (as on so many other women/girls) is an indication of how unsafe one half of India's population really is. And worse, the horrible way you were treated after incident and the vile comments you had to face are all a pointer to how miserable the culture of this society is, and how sick and twisted the mindset of so many Indians truly is.

Last edited by RSR : 13th March 2015 at 17:19.
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