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Old 13th March 2015, 17:26   #916
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
As with the brigade who is "always right", you fail to understand the problem. The problem is not with the uncles, but the society. Because it always finds it convenient to brush it under the carpet.

The uncles could be dealt with the using the law, but who will deal with those people who think that dealing with it will bring disrepute to the family/country?
Yes, there we have it. So if the problem is in society and I guess even you are part of it. It will have to start with each individual. While we are at it, what steps you or like minded ones take to prevent that uncle being the head of security? Isn't the irony right on your face? While its easy to blame society and crib about it like a true 'keyboard warrior', who takes the first step is the one question probably you should ask, No?

I maintain my stand that the tough laws and iron handed punitive measures will bring down the menace. I will also agree to blame certain group of individuals who concur with Mukesh's POV BUT what I will never agree is that the whole society is at fault. Ever wondered why many victims shy away from reporting such crimes? No its not merely about peer pressure, but its largely about the flawed laws that bring further more trauma to the victim and her family. And that's precisely the reason law reforms are needed. I strongly feel that this society is shedding its draconian approach towards the victim and rather gunning for the low lives who commit these crimes. Read more here: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c.../46547696.cms?
AGAIN, let's not generalize and stereo type

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Old 13th March 2015, 17:35   #917
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
If it's not because of the culture, then it has to be because of the mindset of the majority of Indian males.

The argument is between two sides.

On one side, we have those who recognise these terrible, terrible deficiencies in our society, want to fix them, and make sure the country becomes safer for women & girls.

On the other side, we have those who prefer to close their eyes, pretend as if everything is great, believe nothing is wrong with Indian society because of its "great culture", think Indian women & girls are much more safe than their counterparts in every other country, and that those "racist", "colonial" foreigners have a single-point agenda of showing the country in "poor light". In other words, they want to live in perpetual denial mode. They can neither see for themselves that which is so blatantly obvious, nor do they want to recognise something that has been presented as clearly as possible to them.
Wrong. Nobody is saying there is no problem. Just that there is as much problem as in any other "advanced" society. No more, no less. Just that culturally ingrained opinions and beliefs will take time to change, and till that happens, a little discretion does not hurt.

Just as saying there is no problem is not true, so is this film, which magnifies things to an extent where international opinions are formed or malformed. That is equally wrong. It can hurt the economy and oppurtunities (like the student whose seat was rejected), which no body wants. But for that, we care two hoots about what Leslee Udwin thinks of India!

Just imagine, if US work visas are denied like the student's seat, will the documentary still receive as much support as it has till now? I think not.
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Old 13th March 2015, 17:37   #918
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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The real issue is the horrible and disgusting way women & girls are treated in Indian society today.

If it's not because of the culture, then it has to be because of the mindset of the majority of Indian males.

The argument is between two sides.

On one side, we have those who recognise these terrible, terrible deficiencies in our society, want to fix them, and make sure the country becomes safer for women & girls.

On the other side, we have those who prefer to close their eyes, pretend as if everything is great, believe nothing is wrong with Indian society because of its "great culture", think Indian women & girls are much more safe than their counterparts in every other country, and that those "racist", "colonial" foreigners have a single-point agenda of showing the country in "poor light". In other words, they want to live in perpetual denial mode. They can neither see for themselves that which is so blatantly obvious, nor do they want to recognise something that has been presented as clearly as possible to them.

Truly, truly sad! And very, very worrying!

In other news, the victim of that heinous Park Street gang-rape passed away today.

RIP brave lady. Every right thinking Indian male deeply mourns your death. That despicable assault on you (as on so many other women/girls) is an indication of how unsafe one half of India's population really is. And worse, the horrible way you were treated after incident and the vile comments you had to face are all a pointer to how miserable the culture of this society is, and how sick and twisted the mindset of so many Indians truly is.
RIP brave lady :'-(

Coming back to your point yes, we have issues with mindset of the people here, deficiencies in societal values. And at the cost of being repetitive, I'm not against 'foreigners' or anyone making such documentary. What I'm against is the way this whole documentary has been made seems to be very very shady and the stereotyping it depicts (intentionally or otherwise). Whether its UDWIN or UDAY - please by all means continue making documentaries but for God's sake avoid sensationalism. Please read through last bunch of posts for exact details I'm referring to.
Banning is not a solution - but please get real. Many accounts recorded in the documentary have been contested by Nirbhaya's friend who was with her throughout during that ill fated evening.

Last edited by 1lokesh : 13th March 2015 at 17:39.
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Old 13th March 2015, 18:28   #919
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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The argument is between two sides.

On one side, we have those who recognise these terrible, terrible deficiencies in our society, want to fix them, and make sure the country becomes safer for women & girls.

On the other side, we have those who prefer to close their eyes, pretend as if everything is great, believe nothing is wrong with Indian society because of its "great culture", think Indian women & girls are much more safe than their counterparts in every other country, and that those "racist", "colonial" foreigners have a single-point agenda of showing the country in "poor light". In other words, they want to live in perpetual denial mode. They can neither see for themselves that which is so blatantly obvious, nor do they want to recognise something that has been presented as clearly as possible to them.
Really? So those who don't support the documentary, and support the government and the courts of India, are on the opposite side? Only those who support it are pure free minded freedom seekers and opposite sides are oppressive beasts? What makes the victim's friend then, a culprit?

Good to see the 'divide and rule' British stategy working so beautifully after so many centuries.

RSR I didn't target you particularly, but this mentality amongst both the supporters and opponents, of 'us vs them' is really worrying.
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Old 13th March 2015, 18:35   #920
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
How did I ruin it? Read it in the context of safety for women especially. It applies as much to the US of A as India. I certainly will not be comfortable with a female member of my family moving about alone at late hours. I will certainly try and make them avoid it for their own safety, call it enforcement if you will.
You ruined it by saying you're OK with enforcing your idea of discretion on a woman (whether family or otherwise).

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you to the extent that women (why even men) need to be pragmatic and alert w.r.t. their own safety, but the way to go about it isn't restricting their freedom of choice (clothes, education, time of day, food, drink, whatever) but equipping them - physically, emotionally and most importantly socially - so they can make educated, informed and intelligent decisions for their own safety and well-being while still being able to do all they want to do in life. I have young women in my own family; my wife, my sister and a niece who will soon be an age to go out unsupervised, so I'm not blind to the dangers out there, but why should men of the house be presumed to know by default what's best for everyone in the house and entitled to enforce it?

Is it easier to just shut the women up at home at 'unsafe' hours? Sure.
Is is the right thing to do? I guess we probably disagree there.
Will it make things better or worse? A point worth debating, both introspectively and socially.


P.S. Either way, I do appreciate your willingness to engage in a civilized debate on a sensitive topic where we clearly disagree on some aspects.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 13th March 2015 at 18:37.
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Old 13th March 2015, 19:05   #921
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Wrong. Nobody is saying there is no problem. Just that there is as much problem as in any other "advanced" society. No more, no less.
Absolutely wrong! India DOES have a big, serious problem with violent rapes, gang-rapes, brutal rapes and other such violence against women and girls where they are tortured in the most inhuman way and then killed, or thrown out of a moving vehicle, or left to die, or raped repeatedly and violently even as life slowly ebbs out of the victim.

People don't want to recognise or acknowledge the heinousness of such crimes which occur with alarming frequency in this country (and other Third World hellholes). Such violent and inhuman incidents are very rare in the civilised countries, though they may have taken place.

Acknowledging this would mean acknowledging how how truly sub-human a few Indian males really are. Acknowledging this would mean how pathetic the culture and upbringing of such people truly is. Acknowledging this would mean we have to live with the idea that there are such sub-humans who share the same nationality and gender as ourselves.

It is a very difficult thing to do. And that is why many don't want to do it. They simply lack what is required for self-introspection as members of a society and country.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Just that culturally ingrained opinions and beliefs will take time to change, and till that happens, a little discretion does not hurt.
So should one just let that happen at it's own snail-like pace (if it does at all), instead of trying to push it faster in order to make the country safe for women and girls?

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Just as saying there is no problem is not true, so is this film, which magnifies things to an extent where international opinions are formed or malformed. That is equally wrong.
It magnifies nothing, it exaggerates nothing, it does not seek to form or "malform" international opinions. It is just an honest attempt to explore the reason why such people do what they do and why society does not deter them in their heinous actions.

International opinions are formed by what is actually happening in the country, the number of incidents that take place, the alarming frequency at which it occurs, the justice that the victims never get and so on. NOT by what one single documentary presents about one single incident, which happened to be the one of the most (if not the most) heinous one of them all.

There are several more of such nature. I bet there will be many who don't even want to acknowledge that they have taken place.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
It can hurt the economy and oppurtunities (like the student whose seat was rejected), which no body wants.
The real reason why the economy may be hurt and Indian males would be ostracised (even if by unnecessary stereotyping) is NOT because of the documentary.

It is because of the HEINOUS CRIMES against women themselves, and our UTTER FAILURE to PREVENT them! How hard is this to understand? Did all those countries which issued travel advisories to their female citizens do so after this documentary was released? A big NO!

Many countries did so after their women tourists were subjected to horrible violence in India, and felt the need to ensure their safety, which is perfectly understandable! These advisories preceded the documentary ban and release by months, if not years.

It could be a similar thing with the University of Leipzig incident. How does one know it was because of the documentary? It could well have been because the German professor was quite aware of the heinous incidents of crime against women happening in India. As inappropriate as what she did was, there is nothing wrong in wanting to protect herself and her female students from what they perceived to be a threat. It's natural human instinct to do so. What if her students simply told her they were uncomfortable working with an Indian male? How can she ignore their concerns?

If one wants to avoid such boycott effects on the economy and such perceived denial of opportunities, then one has to FIX the problems that lead to such concerns. And that is FIX the problem of violent rapes occurring in India with alarming frequency. Not by banning a documentary that can serve as a starting point to fix the problem!

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Just imagine, if US work visas are denied like the student's seat, will the documentary still receive as much support as it has till now? I think not.
You may think not because it is in line with your way of thinking that it's the documentary that's causing the problem, and not the frequent violent rapes themselves.

What makes you think those in the IT sector care more about a H1B visa than about the safety and well-being of their own wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters etc.?

Last edited by RSR : 13th March 2015 at 19:12.
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Old 13th March 2015, 19:17   #922
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
(like the student whose seat was rejected)
I would take that story with a grain of salt. It is again media hype that is probably projecting the story this way. The German professor claims that the candidate was rejected because the lab was full, but the candidate refused to accept this rejection and they went back and forth over this on emails. Somewhere in that email exchange, the professor expressed her concern over the plight of women in India, which this guy took advantage of.

Quote:
Beck-Sickinger, who finds herself at the center of this outrage, claims she never rejected the applicant because he was an Indian man. "I never wrote the mail in this way," she is quoted as saying in an official statement from Leipzig University. "It has been put together from individual segments taken from different mails." According to the university's release, the student wasn't accepted into the laboratory simply because there were no more spots.
http://www.dw.de/indias-rape-problem...ity/a-18305964
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Old 13th March 2015, 20:02   #923
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Really? So those who don't support the documentary, and support the government and the courts of India, are on the opposite side? Only those who support it are pure free minded freedom seekers and opposite sides are oppressive beasts? What makes the victim's friend then, a culprit?
This is just like you mentioned in a previous comment that those on the other side of the debate were expressing the thoughts of "foreign masters", or something to that effect. Let me see if I can post the quote. Here it is:

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Originally Posted by ani_meher View Post
thinking less of other country men who happen to have a different set of thoughts than what foreign masters expect.
Did I say those on the other side of the debate were "oppressive beasts" or "culprits"? Nothing even remotely close.

The victim's traumatised friend may have his own reasons for stating whatever he did, and I completely respect his views.

What do you have say about views of the victim's traumatised parents, then? Are their views not important?

The parents supported the making of the documentary and its release because it showed us what monsters those rapists were, and that society needs to introspect and ensure that such crimes don't happen again, and that justice is served quickly.

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Originally Posted by ani_meher View Post
Good to see the 'divide and rule' British stategy working so beautifully after so many centuries.
Oh, please! This is 2015. The British left in 1947, decades before I was even born. I can not and shall not hold them responsible for my own society's internal ills and for the mindsets of my own country folks and for the crimes happening in India nearly seven decades after they left.

And there is nothing about some imaginary "divide and rule" here. Just a healthy (if heated at times) debate and comments presenting opposing views. This is quite normal in any internet forum on a topic like this.

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Originally Posted by ani_meher View Post
RSR I didn't target you particularly, but this mentality amongst both the supporters and opponents, of 'us vs them' is really worrying.
I too didn't target you personally either, ani_meher, and shall not do so, either you or any other member! In fact, this and the previous response to Gansan are my first comments where I'm responding to those on the other side of the debate. My previous comments were either general or responses to those on the same side of the debate.

You do have a very valid point, though, that this is becoming more and more of an issue of "us versus them" as the positions of the two sides are looking increasingly irreconcilable.

I maybe personally letting this heated debate and the "us versus them" mentality unnecessarily get reflected in the tone of my responses today, which I think is not a good thing.

I'm off to cool myself now, to reflect upon my responses, and find a way to keep utmost calm while commenting henceforth.

Last edited by RSR : 13th March 2015 at 20:11.
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Old 13th March 2015, 22:14   #924
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

For the kind attention of the forum legal luminaries who said the documentary will not have any effect on the verdict:

"Airing India's Daughter will hit legal process"

The Delhi High Court observed airing of the documentary would put undue pressure on the judges and impact the legal process. "Media trials do tend to influence judges. Subconsciously a pressure is created and it does have an effect on the sentencing" said a bench of Justice B D Ahmed and and Justice Sanjeev Sachdeva.

Observing that the video could make or mar the case of at least one of the accused (Mukesh), it said "whether he showed remorse or not would be considered at the time of his sentencing. Why not wait till the SC decision?"

"Earlier, the media had a self imposed code of not reporting on sub judice matters, but now the media has thrown it to the winds", it observed.

- The Indian Express.

Now before anyone digs in to the judges, please remember this is an online forum and what one says may be construed as contempt of court!
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Old 13th March 2015, 22:36   #925
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
For the kind attention of the forum legal luminaries who said the documentary will not have any effect on the verdict:

"Airing India's Daughter will hit legal process"

The Delhi High Court observed airing of the documentary would put undue pressure on the judges and impact the legal process. "Media trials do tend to influence judges. Subconsciously a pressure is created and it does have an effect on the sentencing" said a bench of Justice B D Ahmed and and Justice Sanjeev Sachdeva.

Observing that the video could make or mar the case of at least one of the accused (Mukesh), it said "whether he showed remorse or not would be considered at the time of his sentencing. Why not wait till the SC decision?"

"Earlier, the media had a self imposed code of not reporting on sub judice matters, but now the media has thrown it to the winds", it observed.

- The Indian Express.

Now before anyone digs in to the judges, please remember this is an online forum and what one says may be construed as contempt of court!

Just thinking aloud, a random thought, how would one react if the victim ( I mean the girl) happened to be ones daughter. Only fathers of daughters would know.

Let the debate go on.
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Old 14th March 2015, 00:27   #926
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
I maybe personally letting this heated debate and the "us versus them" mentality unnecessarily get reflected in the tone of my responses today, which I think is not a good thing.

I'm off to cool myself now, to reflect upon my responses, and find a way to keep utmost calm while commenting henceforth.
I too share your sentiments. I also felt we were unnecessarily in arms, whereas the enemy we are fighting is the same - the rapist mentality and the lack of freedom for women. Our ways may differ, some may prefer to introspect and improve by themselves, while some may feel this is a world problem, and hence everyone has a right and responsibility to contribute.

Yet, I am glad that none has taken the rapist's side. None has agreed to what that lawyer had said in the rapist's defense. Let the safety and rights of women continue to be our uniting issue, rather than fighting about how to tackle it. So, make room on that coffee table and order one more
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Old 14th March 2015, 11:10   #927
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

At the risk of being condored....sorry, if this has already been posted.

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This is reply to BBC for making Video on Rape cases in other Countries when they are them self at the 5th place in World's Rape list, to remind them " Daughter is Daughter, She is not Indian or British" & we have same pain for British too. Please share to your friends so World should know the reality. Please do not post any hate comments.
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Old 14th March 2015, 13:05   #928
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

I watched the documentary yesterday night and was waiting for someone to mention about it.
The issues, reasons, arguments, etc. all are exactly the same but there are two major differences in the victim's case (as compared to Nirbhaya's) which are quite common in the rape cases worldwide i.e. she was raped by someone previously known to her, secondly the case might have been disposed fairly early as compared to India.

I have to say one thing that while we laugh at jokes like, 'A drunk male is a liability while a drunk female is an asset' with the clear meaning but at the same time if someone questions as to why did the female got drunk to the extent of not looking after herself, the person questioning is condemned as though he has asked some illogical or irrational question. Case in point, Uber taxi rape case.
If one says that he/she has no problem with girl getting drunk and going alone in a Taxi at midnight and its the Uber and Police at fault for not doing proper background check, then as I posted in my previous post, the real problem is not background check, rape, fraud, etc, its the failure of judiciary to put the fear in the criminals and serve justice. One more point worth mentioning is that the driver first took the victim to her house and when he realised that she is asleep and completely drunk, only after then he got the courage to take advantage. I am neither defending the driver nor justifying rape but posting the facts as what I have read in various reports. So my personal opinion is that the girl did drop her guard and I am not saying she asked for it but she did act IRRESPONSIBLY. Now the next point is that even if girl acted irresponsibly does it mean all men should rape her, NO but we certainly don't live in an ideal world.
At the same time very few rape cases come to light where taxi driver raped the drunk women which point to two facts one, all Indian men are not rapists and two, the victim will also have to answer questions as to why did she behaved in such irresponsible way so some of them don't report the incident. I am sure the number of females drinking and taking taxi would have not come down in large numbers.
One more BASIC fact to be noted that it is only females (in 99.99% cases) that can be raped (and not males) and even if someone has to argue over that fact they can do that endlessly, we are not discussing exceptions. What I mean to say is that as far as sexual molestation is concerned, its the females who end up suffering more and therefore they have to be MORE CAREFUL. I am not saying protected but CAREFUL.
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Old 14th March 2015, 19:15   #929
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Meanwhile, 2 lynchings have taken the lives of 2 men, one of them declared innocent of the accused crime.

A man in Dimapur was broken out of jail by a mob, stripped, thrashed and beaten to death then hung up. He was accused of rape, later found to be consensual and rather a case of extortion.

A man in Agra was dragged out of his own house, and beaten to death after a passing woman/girl accused him of exposing himself (inside his own house). Had it been the other way, the girl inside and man outside, the man would be arrested for being a 'peeping tom' , I suppose as such laws already exist.

Now what punishment will the mobs get for murdering innocent ( and at least innocent until proven guilty via due process) men ? Is an accusation equivalent to guilty ?

Looks like cows are much safer than men in this country. I suppose this irrational mob mentality is why the government wanted to ban the film - no, that can't be, the government doesn't care about men anyway.
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Old 15th March 2015, 23:58   #930
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Default Re: The Delhi Bus Rape Case. UPDATE: Ram Singh Suicide, 4 others sentenced to death

Just finished watching the documentary (India's Daughter). Thank you BBC for that and well, as much as the govt. can try banning the video on Youtube or any other media, people will find a workaround to watch it just as I did.

I felt shivers running down my spine, when Mukesh Singh, the driver of the bus who narrates the incident says, someone put his hand inside her and pulled out something long. It was her intestines. :'( I recall reading it but when the convict himself narrates it in the video, it just felt very very disturbing and sad.

I am beyond words. Had tears in my eyes as I finished watching it. Too bad, the current laws in the country will not punish the juvenile beyond a petty 3 year imprisonment and he will be released December this year. Even sadder were the defending lawyers and their statements!

I am even surprised the case has gone for a Supreme Court appeal! At the cost of sounding like a dumb, why is that? For reducing the punishment from death to life imprisonment?

RIP Jyoti. She was just 23 years old. The world shall always remember you as a brave, young girl! :'(
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