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Old 29th July 2013, 14:21   #91
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Pressure and provocation cannot be put forward as an excuse for manslaughter. That's what this was.
Some people have called it a cold blooded murder, you have alleged manslaughter.
Definition of manslaughter:
The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

It is neither cold blooded murder nor manslaughter, since there was due caution, in the form of warnings (verbal as well as firing in the air) The response was stone pelting, not just fleeing from the spot. IF they had run away on seeing the police and inspite of which they had been fired upon, it would have been manslaughter, which is not the case here.

No its not the wild west, its a very tolerant India. The real problem here is that people want to have their rights without bothering about their obligations and rights of others.

At the very least, this one incident will make the bikers a tad more respectful of the police, and if it does, I think it will be a step in the right direction.

Also for the all folks who are accusing the police of cold blooded murder and manslaughter: When you are so willing to give the benefit of doubt to the deceased, why cant you give the same benefit of doubt to the trainned police personnel? Do you really believe that the Delhi police is so trigger happy that they will shoot any innocent person for a lark?
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Old 29th July 2013, 14:26   #92
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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[b]. But trust me, these very same guys would grow into hardened criminals, if their current behaviour is any indication.
I think many of them might grow into responsible citizen as well. If they are allowed to live, that is.


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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
How many times have you willingly broken the law (even if it is just to jump a red light)?
.....

And about the earlobes...
I totally agree with all you say. I had largely been a good obedient son, most Bengali kids around those times used to be that way. And still got my earlobes pulled by my mom, dad and other elders every now and then. There's nothing wrong or right about that.

However, getting killed from a bullet in the back and receiving thrashing from parents, neighbors, police .. not the same thing.

There was a 100 other ways to stop that gang from doing whatever they were doing. Those 100 other ways still exist.

However, you will observe in the coming days that Police will do nothing to stop them from coming back on the road. They will surely come back in some time and nobody (including the police and the moralist) will do a thing about that.
Only a 19 year old boy, who wasn't even driving, lost his life. Probably he didn't even support the stone pelting. We'll never know.. 'cause he will never get a chance to say.

Lets cheer to that. And wait for the next such irresponsible police action which has neither purpose nor effect. And lets cheer it again when someone else's son gets killed.


PS - I think however, the time is ripe for a mod action and close this thread.

Last edited by sen2009 : 29th July 2013 at 14:33.
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Old 29th July 2013, 14:30   #93
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Some people have called it a cold blooded murder, you have alleged manslaughter.
Definition of manslaughter:
The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

It is neither cold blooded murder nor manslaughter, since there was due caution, in the form of warnings (verbal as well as firing in the air) The response was stone pelting, not just fleeing from the spot. IF they had run away on seeing the police and inspite of which they had been fired upon, it would have been manslaughter, which is not the case here.

No its not the wild west, its a very tolerant India. The real problem here is that people want to have their rights without bothering about their obligations and rights of others.

At the very least, this one incident will make the bikers a tad more respectful of the police, and if it does, I think it will be a step in the right direction.
Tel this to the parents who have lost their boy.

Do the police and CRPF use live ammo on stone pelters in Kashmir?

Quote:
Do you really believe that the Delhi police is so trigger happy that they will shoot any innocent person for a lark?
Of course I do. A city gets the police it deserves. It is equally true that the police of a city by and large reflect the attitdue of its citizenry.
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Old 29th July 2013, 14:44   #94
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
1. Tell this to the parents who have lost their boy.

Do the police and CRPF use live ammo on stone pelters in Kashmir?
1. They claim to have gone to sleep and have no idea that he went out after that.
2. They ought to.

Remember there were about 150 hooligans and they pelted stones when atopped. I am afraid I have ZERO sympathy for them.

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd August 2013 at 15:16. Reason: Removing part of your post. Lets steer clear of politics, etc. Thanks.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:03   #95
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

If it was just a rowdy biker gang trying to hold street for hostage, firing was not the right thing to do. There are other saner ways to deal with it.

But, I guess, they were not just driving dangerously and creating ruckus, but also were attacking police with stone pelting (not to mention in drunken state). If police fires back, they cannot be blamed.

If the guys were so brazen to attack armed police in center of the city, I would not be surprised if they go ahead and commit serious crimes if unchecked (harassing/assaulting women has been reported several times earlier too). Same police would then be charged for inaction and not maintaining law and order.

It's much easier to rock back on a comfortable armchair and give diktat on what police should do.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:04   #96
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Pressure and provocation cannot be put forward as an excuse for manslaughter. That's what this was. And by someone who is entrusted to uphold the law and due process no less.

As the police, your duty is to maintain the law with all the state machinery at your disposal. If these gangs are a regular menace, then the police has simply not been doing its job in allowing it to continue.

Chase the perpetrators. Catch them. Give them a few solid slaps. Call their parents, and get signed guarantees. Put pressure on them via their college/office etc. Put them in a cell and make them eat jail food and enjoy the company for a few days. Make them do some form of community service as punishment. Confiscate their license and bikes.

What kind of solution is whipping out a gun and shooting a kid dead? Is this the Wild West?
Assaulting cops doesn't quite fit the description of pressure and provocation, it can simply be called assault, which is a crime and preventing police from discharging their duties is certainly a crime.

The police represent and uphold state monopoly on violence, that is why the 1858 Police Act with all its regressive attitudes is still maintained in spirit. The police it seems are damned if they do,damned if they don't, they took care of a social menace, hope the rest of the gang meets with the same fate.

Chase the perps and do what? You are suggesting physical violence so the police can take liberties to set straight some wayward(in this case, obviously criminal) youth. Next will be slapping girls for wearing revealing clothes and having them suspended from college for partying?

The "kids" you speak about are responsible for their actions in legal terms. They thought it was the Wild West, unfortunately one of them found out that the door swings both ways.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:07   #97
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

Like others have mentioned in the thread, its sad that it had to come to this, but many a times I see a group of riders harrasing couples and single women late at night. You are completly surrounded by them and then the games begin. Are we in some type of dark age here?

I had a bad accident once because of trying to make sure I dont hit one of these biker boys, though luckily I didnt end up hurting myself, I was lighter by about 60k even after insurance and the bikers got away without even bothering to see if people in the car are ok, even though it was their fault.

Parents should be a bit more watchful of their kids is all I can say and I do sympathise with the parents who lost their child.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:18   #98
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post

How many people have you seen shot dead for breaking traffic rules? If what you say is true then half of India's population would have been shot dead by now. Because that is how frequently we break traffic rules. So, please do not over-state.

As someone has rightly said, for the greater good of many, a few must perish. Here "a few" means criminals. I have absolutely no sympathy for criminals and crooks. They just must be eliminated. You may look at the bike riders as just a bunch of teenager out to have fun. But trust me, these very same guys would grow into hardened criminals, if their current behaviour is any indication.
So, what hunt them and shoot them??

This is what you say. All they did was they violated the traffic laws. Police did have alot of other options, firing is not the way out here.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:30   #99
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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So, what hunt them and shoot them??

This is what you say. All they did was they violated the traffic laws. Police did have alot of other options, firing is not the way out here.
May be you like sensationalising things. It was not exactly a case of hunting and shooting. Police aimed for the tyre and the boy died. You know what. I am not happy with this news. I would have been happier if the police had aimed straight for the boy. So, yes, I would say hunt them down and shoot them.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:33   #100
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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1. They claim to have gone to sleep and have no idea that he went out after that.
Millions of parents go to sleep and find out that their kids have slunk out to have a good time. They are kids.

Should it then be de rigeur in our country to expect the kids to be shot dead by the police while we sleep. Is this Karachi, Pakistan?

Quote:
2. They ought to.
Yet they do not. In spite of the strongest provocation and assault on nearly a daily basis. While this police guy thought of shooting a kid while they were fleeing. Aiming for the tyres - right! This is not a Bollywood movie man .....

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Remember there were about 150 hooligans and they pelted stones when atopped. I am afraid I have ZERO sympathy for them.
So? The solution is to use lethal force? Lets call a spade a spade man. Delhi police is by far the MOST corrupt, uncouth, incompetent, and violence-happy force in the country.

A city gets the police they deserve. The police of a city mirror the attitude of its citizenry.

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
Chase the perps and do what? You are suggesting physical violence so the police can take liberties to set straight some wayward(in this case, obviously criminal) youth. Next will be slapping girls for wearing revealing clothes and having them suspended from college for partying?
So you would rather have the police go John Wayne on unarmed citizens instead?

Quote:
The "kids" you speak about are responsible for their actions in legal terms. They thought it was the Wild West, unfortunately one of them found out that the door swings both ways.
Catch them and charge them. Let the law take its course. Who made the police judge, jury and executioner here?

I am shocked that there are some of us who actually are defending the police's action here.

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd August 2013 at 15:18. Reason: Editing quoted post.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:43   #101
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Thumbs up Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

Its been a year and a half since i have moved to New Delhi. Before that i was a frequent visitor to the capital.

One needs utter patience when driving on the streets of Delhi. Everyone is the king, everyone rules the street! There is no stopping them, and if you try too you would either land up in the hospital or the Graveyard.

At the time of incident, Delhi Police did what they had too. If Delhi Police had practiced zero tolerance against the law breakers ,this wouldn't have happened.

I fail to understand this city, where Traffic Police is slapped and no one fears the law!

P.S: No offence meant to anyone ,my post is based on my personal experience(s).
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:51   #102
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

@ebonho; We all have our views.

What do you expect the police to do. Go down on their hands and knees with folded hands and prey to these rascals. Do not think they are kids - they are hardcore criminals. These chaps will not even think twice before running down a citizen or a law enforcement officer. They should have caught most of the rest, and locked them up. Then we would have known who are their Godfathers.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:57   #103
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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I am shocked that there are some of us who actually are defending the police's action here.
I don't think, anyone in sane state of mind would expect/want police to fire at anyone. This is not jungle raj.

However, you seem to be forgetting that:
  1. These 'kids' are no kids. The guy, who died was in late 20s. As per Indian law, they were adult enough.
  2. The 'kids' were drunk.
  3. The 'kids' were attacking police with stone and 'other missiles' (whatever that meant, probably bottles) and rioting in public place.
  4. It was 2 am in night, where normal law abiding citizen are either in bed or if alone on road, scared about own life.
  5. Just as Delhi police is touted to be corrupt/incompetent/violent et.al., there have been instances of these 'kids' sexually assaulting females, families and lonely travelers on the road. Not that these 'kids' would have done the same, but I don't understand what police should do when they are assaulted by fast moving bikers. Run behind them with lathis, please them to come to police station?
I don't recall instances of police firing at someone just because someone broke a traffic rule and I don't think this it the same case here.

If you take law in hand, you face the music.

There still could have been a possibility of avoiding firing, but it's impossible to sit at home and say if it's was there or not. It should be left at police's discretion (not necessarily just the officer involved)
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:57   #104
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Catch them and charge them. Let the law take its course. Who made the police judge, jury and executioner here?

I am shocked that there are some of us who actually are defending the police's action here.
Yeah, sure. Let the law takes its own course. And before you know it, these guys will be out and will be more boldened. And will take their sport to next level.

I think you have never seen an assembly of rogues indulging in loot and arson. Burning buses, damaging public property, doing rasta rokos, attacking vehicles, teasing girls etc. Else, you would not be saying this.

If somebody has to fire a gun, I would much prefer a policeman firing than a criminal firing. Since, policemen are reduced to paper tigers, thanks to liberal wimps, criminals are at large in this country. Someday when you have a brush with these people, you would be speaking in a different tone. Until then, you can keep feeling sorry for every crook.
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Old 29th July 2013, 15:58   #105
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Default Re: Police fire after altercation with street stunt bikers in Delhi, one dead

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Hmm. If that's the case, i would say the police had a benefit of doubt or rather, the military. However, why would a military compound be bang in the middle of the city? I am not saying it is wrong but a guy fleeing doesn't decide where he is headed. But, the guy speaking in urdu(hushed as you put it) would definitely have been suspect enough and the idiot didn't surrender. He paid for his stupidity then. Thanks for the details Ajit sir.

I did read about the asking for help in the post but, this detail about hushed urdu...hmmm.
The military compound is in the middle of the city now. It was on the outskirts when it was formed.

20 years ago, it was kind of on the outskirts. The military compound was probably created over 40 years ago.

I am confused by your statements. Are you saying that it was natural for anyone to flee from the police ? The guy broke the law when he was driving drunk and broke the law further when he ran away. This wouldn't have happened, if he had fear of the law. Examples like this need to be made as a deterrence.
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