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Old 8th July 2014, 16:04   #3661
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Originally Posted by anandjha View Post
Boss, your diet, apart from reducing your weight will also, god forbid, damage your body
Very well could be. But I have no intention of letting all my hardwork go to waste and I intend to be in this shape.

Again it varies from person to person, This has worked for me. I will be slowly increasing my calorie intake and see how it affects.
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Old 8th July 2014, 16:50   #3662
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I will be slowly increasing my calorie intake and see how it affects.
You will be surprised with the results. Most probably the rate of weight loss will increase.
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Old 8th July 2014, 17:33   #3663
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

Guys

I am kind of hitting a plateau in terms of results from the gym. also my 10 yr struggle to ADD WEIGHT continues to meet no results. So just to make my weekly gymming more entertaining I plan to change the schedule. Pls tell me if this has any adverse impact


Current Schedule :

Day 1: Squat + related work outs for legs
Day 2: Lat ( wings as some people refer to )
Day 3: Chest ( bench press etc )
Day 4 : Triceps
Day 5: Shoulder, neck , lower back, uppper back
Day 6: Biceps and calf
Day 7: repeat of Day 1

Practically speaking i end up going to the gym maybe 5 times so any 2 of the above sessions get missed out which i make up in the next week

Proposed schedue :

Pick up any 2 focus areas for a week and alternate these across the week. so if its chest and squat, I do this every alternate day of a particular week. ( this ensures a 1 day rest period also ). effectively since i go to the gym 5 times a week, i will be working out for chest around 2/3 times and squat 2 times in that week.

the next week i pick up triceps and shoulder/back combo


Does this approach have any adverse effects ?

Does this approach give any incremental benefits ?

thanks for your inputs
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Old 8th July 2014, 20:05   #3664
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
Guys

I am kind of hitting a plateau in terms of results from the gym. also my 10 yr struggle to ADD WEIGHT continues to meet no results.


Current Schedule :

Day 1: Squat + related work outs for legs
Day 2: Lat ( wings as some people refer to )
Day 3: Chest ( bench press etc )
Day 4 : Triceps
Day 5: Shoulder, neck , lower back, uppper back
Day 6: Biceps and calf
Day 7: repeat of Day 1
Instead of trying to modify your routine,why don't you try cutting down on the number of exercises and the sets. The max you will lose is not to progress with weights for another month. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things ...
Day 1 - only squat (one working set) and dead-lift (one working set) (perhaps you may add some calf work)
Day 2 - only chins (one working set) and row (one working set)
Day 3 - only bench press or incline (one working set) and dips (one working set)
Day 4 - no triceps since you are doing dips on Day3
Day 5 - military press or upright rows (one set only) - preferably do on Day 3 - all chest exercises involve shoulders heavily!
Day 6 - no biceps, you have already done chins/pullups on Day 2, if you want to do curls do one set on Day 2
Day 7 - repeat

So in effect you are only doing 3 days in a week. If you could then take one day off in between each of these days (that way it will be 1 on 1 off)


To be honest this body part wise workout that you do with number of exercises per part and multiple sets per exercise is something that works only initially for a few months. If you have been progressing for years on this - hats off to you, you are a genetic elite.
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Old 9th July 2014, 12:09   #3665
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Guys

I am kind of hitting a plateau in terms of results from the gym. also my 10 yr struggle to ADD WEIGHT continues to meet no results.
Take a hard look at your diet. It should be anywhere between 2500-3000 calories (depending on your weight and height) of wholesome food with quality carbs and fat.

Take at least one weekly off. 2 would be better.

Change programme every 3-4 months.

Concentrate primarily on compound movements like deadlift, squats, chest press, shoulder press, pull ups/chin ups and rowing. Lift to your max capacity in 4-6 range (it won't just tax your muscles but central nervous system as well) but don't sacrifice form.

Google for Max OT programme. I think it is by Skip L'Cour. And as a preparation towards it follow the below mentioned programme for 2-3 months.

Day 1 (Chest & Tricpes) Chest Press (4-6) Triceps Extn (8-10) Single Arm Extn (8-10) DB Extn (8-10)
Day 2 (Back & Biceps) Deadlift (4-6) BB Curl (8-10) Decline DB Curl (8-10) Close Grip EZ Curl (8-10)
Day 3 (Shoulder & Leg) Military Press (4-6) Front Squat (8-10) Leg Extn (8-10) Leg Curl (8-10)
Day 4 (Tricpes & Chest) BB Triceps Press (4-6) DB Incline Press (8-10) DB Decline Press (8-10) Flys (8-10)
Day 5 (Bicpes & Back) EZ Bar Curl (4-6) BB Rowing (8-10) One Arm Rowing (8-10) Pull Ups / Reverse Fly (8-10)
Day 6 (Leg & Shoulder) Squat (4-6) Lateral Raise (8-10) Trap Pullover (8-10) DB Press (8-10)
Day 7 (Rest)

Thereafter for one month you can pick up two exercises per body part per day such as biceps and triceps. Do 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 for the first exercise and 10, 20, 30 40, 50 for the second. You can get the details on bodybuilding.com (the proponent of this programme, Krish Gethin was the trained Hritik Roshan for Krish 3).

After this you can go for 3X10 programme for next 3 months. From here on repeat this cycle. You can even try different programmes but I would recommend that you always keep Max OT and 3x10 in your schedule.

Remember to throw in cardio, abs and flexibility training in between.

Last edited by anandjha : 9th July 2014 at 12:13.
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Old 9th July 2014, 12:33   #3666
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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Instead of trying to modify your routine,why don't you try cutting down on the number of exercises and the sets. The max you will lose is not to progress with weights for another month. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things ...

To be honest this body part wise workout that you do with number of exercises per part and multiple sets per exercise is something that works only initially for a few months. If you have been progressing for years on this - hats off to you, you are a genetic elite.
alpha1 - Thanks. I think the only parameter where i can call myself a genetic elite is on the fact that I have not been able to gain weight for long ( staying put at 63-64 kgs with height of 175cms )

Noted your schedule but somehow it looks very less compared to what i do now. I agree the trade off is minimal but apart from building muscles, I also feel good the whole day if i work out well at the gym. Maybe I need to fill in this schedule with some other sports/physical activity


Quote:
Originally Posted by anandjha View Post
Take a hard look at your diet. It should be anywhere between 2500-3000 calories (depending on your weight and height) of wholesome food with quality carbs and fat.


Change programme every 3-4 months.

Concentrate primarily on compound movements like deadlift, squats, chest press, shoulder press, pull ups/chin ups and rowing. Lift to your max capacity in 4-6 range (it won't just tax your muscles but central nervous system as well) but don't sacrifice form.

Google for Max OT programme. I think it is by Skip L'Cour. And as a preparation towards it follow the below mentioned programme for 2-3 months.

After this you can go for 3X10 programme for next 3 months. From here on repeat this cycle. You can even try different programmes but I would recommend that you always keep Max OT and 3x10 in your schedule.

Remember to throw in cardio, abs and flexibility training in between.

Anand - Thanks. I will need to work on these lines to change the schedule just for breaking the monotony atleast
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Old 9th July 2014, 13:01   #3667
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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Noted your schedule but somehow it looks very less compared to what i do now.
Less... Don't let the simplicity deceive you. (On the sidelines it is human nature to get fascinated by complex things. The answer, more often lies in simplicity).

Try it for 1-2 months. Just one exercise per body part, 5 reps for 5 times (3-5 range) with 3/4 rounds of warm ups. You'll know that you've had it for the day. Just one caveat lift real heavy. Remembering as you do so you are entering the powerlifting zone.

Keep a spotter handy, someone who really knows how to do it.
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Old 9th July 2014, 13:10   #3668
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Less... Don't let the simplicity deceive you. (On the sidelines it is human nature to get fascinated by complex things. The answer, more often lies in simplicity).

Try it for 1-2 months. Just one exercise per body part, 5 reps for 5 times (3-5 range) with 3/4 rounds of warm ups. You'll know that you've had it for the day. Just one caveat lift real heavy. Remembering as you do so you are entering the powerlifting zone.

Keep a spotter handy, someone who really knows how to do it.
Pls dont get me wrong. I was just trying to say that just 1 set each of, say, squat or dead lift will be a bit less because as such when I do any work out, I prefer to slowly load up the weight and reach the peak weight I can do over 3-4 sets ( of around 10-12 reps each ). So if I just 1 set of 10 -12 reps of 2 items in a day, thats going to be about 15-20mins of gym time in which case, as i commented, i will have to think of some other activities as well to tire me out
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Old 9th July 2014, 13:23   #3669
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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
Pls dont get me wrong.
Oh, come on now.

And it is not 10-12 reps of 2 exercises. It is even less than that - 5 sets of 3-5 reps (with 3-4 warms up sets) of just one exercise that too just 4 days a week. Done properly it blasts. The feeling is not just insane but humbling as well.

Last edited by anandjha : 9th July 2014 at 13:27.
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Old 13th July 2014, 12:54   #3670
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Pls dont get me wrong. I was just trying to say that just 1 set each of, say, squat or dead lift will be a bit less because as such when I do any work out, I prefer to slowly load up the weight and reach the peak weight I can do over 3-4 sets ( of around 10-12 reps each ). So if I just 1 set of 10 -12 reps of 2 items in a day, thats going to be about 15-20mins of gym time in which case, as i commented, i will have to think of some other activities as well to tire me out
Answer lies in how much weight you lift.
For this to tire you out lets say if you weigh 70 kg then start near to your body weight.
A word of caution don't try alone and do it with proper squat rack and bench with suppprt mechanism for safety
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Old 13th July 2014, 15:24   #3671
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
Guys

I am kind of hitting a plateau in terms of results from the gym. also my 10 yr struggle to ADD WEIGHT continues to meet no results. So just to make my weekly gymming more entertaining I plan to change the schedule. Pls tell me if this has any adverse impact


Current Schedule :

Day 1: Squat + related work outs for legs
Day 2: Lat ( wings as some people refer to )
Day 3: Chest ( bench press etc )
Day 4 : Triceps
Day 5: Shoulder, neck , lower back, uppper back
Day 6: Biceps and calf
Day 7: repeat of Day 1

Practically speaking i end up going to the gym maybe 5 times so any 2 of the above sessions get missed out which i make up in the next week

Proposed schedue :

Pick up any 2 focus areas for a week and alternate these across the week. so if its chest and squat, I do this every alternate day of a particular week. ( this ensures a 1 day rest period also ). effectively since i go to the gym 5 times a week, i will be working out for chest around 2/3 times and squat 2 times in that week.

the next week i pick up triceps and shoulder/back combo


Does this approach have any adverse effects ?

Does this approach give any incremental benefits ?

thanks for your inputs
Hi,

It would've helped if you'd have provided how long you've been working out for and how regularly and what is your diet regime (as the latter is more important than the hours you put in the gym).

That said, your ideal weight should be about 71 kgs given your height and your 7 kgs deficit should be covered in six-seven months if you're a newbie, or more if you've trained for long.

That said, if I were you, I'd weight train only thrice a week, two parts covered each day (back-biceps, chest-triceps, legs-shoulders), with a fourth day dedicated to cardio, or throw in a quick, 15-minute but intense cardio before each of your weight-training workouts.

This would ensure adequate rest and recovery -- as lean guys typically have a fast metabolism and need to guard against catabolism that can set in from overtraining or not diving the body enough time to recover from workouts.

But more importantly, it will depend on your diet, and on the whole, putting on weight is simply about putting in excess calories.
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Old 14th July 2014, 12:27   #3672
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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Originally Posted by anandjha View Post
What I would like to add. Keep a balanced wholesome diet. During dieting hunger is a big issue and that's where a meal and not a supplement will come to your rescue.

During this time you also need to keep your stomach full to keep hunger pangs at bay and food not supplement will help you. All the more reason to ditch whey and go for chicken. And most importantly, whey is fast dissolving (that's the reason for its popularity) and will be quickly digested, fulfilling your protein requirement and hardly full.


As far as calorie is concerned keep it about 500 less than you need.
I kind of differ with this.
The stomach should be kept as empty as possible for a maximum duration if you wish to either lose weight or stay put at a fixed weight. It is this saline drip like continuous food intake throughout the day that blunts the insulin resistance of the body cells.

We all gain fat because of one evolutionary purpose: food was not available all the time. Hence the body has mechanism of (1) storing fat when food is available and (2) releasing fat when food is not available.

Unfortunately with our modern lifestyle,we never give a chance to our body to do the point (2)

Quote:
Boss, your diet, apart from reducing your weight will also, god forbid, damage your body. Some of the cases I have come across include appendix burst, weakness, loss of bone density and rectal bleeding (due to excessively high fibre diet). Another pitfall is that once you are off it your body will come back with vengeance and undo all your efforts.

If I am not wrong ~1400 cal is bare minimum to sustain human body. Yes bodybuilders practice it but it is not for more than 4 weeks which again is interspersed with 2 high cal days every week.

Others please comment.

I would again offer a countering view:
Who decides 1400 kcal my body's BMR perhaps it is 1000 kcal, perhaps it is 3000! It all depends on my thryroid circuit. And everyone has it different.

But I agree with reduced calories (reduced food intake actually) - which lead to reduced nutrients (vitamins/minerals) - which may lead to deficiencies. But I am not sure about appendix and bleeding. It shouldn't happen simply because of reduced food intake.

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

I often used to skip breakfast and make up for it in lunch. What a fool i was! Now, I ensure I have a good breakfast (again nothing lavish like 4 aloo parathas!!
You will be surprised to know that morning breakfast is the most useless piece of meal in a person's daily life-cycle. Your body is already at the max storage of all nutrients from the dinner last night. The body was sleeping and hence required only basal calories to keep alive and function.

Why would anyone need more fuel at this point of time?
The concept of morning breakfast is a very recent phenomenon came about mainly with the introduction of breakfast cereals.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20243692

Do you have a word in your language for morning breakfast? I am sure it would be same word used for "snacks". This is because in previous centuries people used to eat only if they had left over from previous night dinner. In fact come to think of it - can you really work physically after having a "breakfast like king" and then again a "lunch like prince"???
The earlier feeding habbits were more on the lines of two meals - one small few hours after waking up, and another huge one before sunset.

If someone is on a mission to reduce body fat, I would recommend removing this morning breakfast altogether. Also throw away anything which is instant meal / ready to cook / frozen - reheat to eat.

And to those who say that this will screw up your blood glucose - they have no clue how the blood glucose regulation mechanism works. You have stores of glycogen in your liver and muscles that get converted back to glucose via glucagon when the blood glucose levels start dipping

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
alpha1 - Thanks. I think the only parameter where i can call myself a genetic elite is on the fact that I have not been able to gain weight for long ( staying put at 63-64 kgs with height of 175cms )
Based on rule of thumb your weight should MAX be 75 kg. So you can reach upto that level of muscularity - congrats!

Based on more elaborate computations - about 66 kg should be the max lean body mass. At 10% fat levels it becomes 73 kg.

You still have a journey of 10 kg

Quote:
Noted your schedule but somehow it looks very less compared to what i do now. I agree the trade off is minimal but apart from building muscles, I also feel good the whole day if i work out well at the gym. Maybe I need to fill in this schedule with some other sports/physical activity
Sir, you have to decide whether you want to find out something that works and produces results, or you wish to keep following a tradition in order to feel good about simply following it.

Here is an interesting read for you (as well as everyone on this thread): http://maggiewang.com/wp-content/upl...nt-workout.pdf
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Old 15th July 2014, 15:57   #3673
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Default Re: Bodybuilding - Exercises and Supplements

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You will be surprised to know that morning breakfast is the most useless piece of meal in a person's daily life-cycle. Your body is already at the max storage of all nutrients from the dinner last night. The body was sleeping and hence required only basal calories to keep alive and function.

Why would anyone need more fuel at this point of time?
The concept of morning breakfast is a very recent phenomenon came about mainly with the introduction of breakfast cereals.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20243692

Do you have a word in your language for morning breakfast? I am sure it would be same word used for "snacks". This is because in previous centuries people used to eat only if they had left over from previous night dinner. In fact come to think of it - can you really work physically after having a "breakfast like king" and then again a "lunch like prince"???
The earlier feeding habbits were more on the lines of two meals - one small few hours after waking up, and another huge one before sunset.

If someone is on a mission to reduce body fat, I would recommend removing this morning breakfast altogether. Also throw away anything which is instant meal / ready to cook / frozen - reheat to eat.
There are plenty of articles on the net listing the benefits of breakfast as well. Here is one of many:
http://blog.zocdoc.com/is-breakfast-...-fact-vs-myth/

Here is another from webmd:
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/most-important-meal

Just because our ancestors didn't eat breakfast doesn't mean that we dont need to. Look at the life expectancy of our ancestors as well!

Anyway, my point is that it is easy to find anything on the internet to support one's point. What I have said earlier is from my own experience and not from some article on the net. Balanced 3 meals a day with snacks (raw vegetables and nuts) in between have helped me tremendously to lose weight, without leaving me hungry. That is why i advocate for a healthy breakfast. What you eat is more important than how much you eat when it comes to winning the battle of the bulge.
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Old 15th July 2014, 17:48   #3674
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There are plenty of articles on the net listing the benefits of breakfast as well.

Anyway, my point is that it is easy to find anything on the internet to support one's point. What I have said earlier is from my own experience and not from some article on the net. Balanced 3 meals a day with snacks (raw vegetables and nuts) in between have helped me tremendously to lose weight, without leaving me hungry. That is why i advocate for a healthy breakfast.
Well research is research, and if it was well controlled and recorded fairly the data and conclusions should dictate one's point - not the other way round.

Do check up this on the whole morning breakfast research (that was there in your articles):
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/0...ype=blogs&_r=1

All I am saying is that breakfast like king, lunch like prince, dinner like pauper concept is flawed. There is no advantage to it compared to eating 3 equal meals, or 6 equal meals, or only 1 meal per day. Sum of Net food and drink intake per day is what is of concern (said it perhaps a few posts back). Almost the same as what you are saying but in a different fashion.

My second point was that human digestive system works best when it is not constantly loaded with food. The liver , pancreas , intestines and even the stomach works best when they have replenished themselves. The whole concept of autophagy works when these guys are not constantly loaded. (by the way this autophagy contributes a lot to the protein pool and thus relieves you of trying to constantly up the food protein intake to provide amino acids in the blood). This autophagy also contributes A LOT to the improvement of all cellular structures by removing cellular damage. It is not clear today, but indications are that the lack of autophagy is an important reason for pathogen infection, accumulation of cellular toxins, tumors, ageing and ultimately death.

You are though right that eating once or twice a day will (actually only initially, this wears off - as I have already written about the psychological hunger caused by brain craving for glucose mainly because of raised insulin levels and insulin resistance) make a person feel hungry and may lead him to gorge during the meal times. But this effect of hunger goes off within one-two weeks.

And even if I were to gorge I would have to eat about 571 g (more than 2 cups) of rice to consume 2000 kcal. This is dried raw rice. Not cooked. Usually rice takes up 2 times water. Which means a person would have to eat about 1.5 kg of cooked rice and still end up with a caloric deficit (assuming he required more than 2000 kcal per day)

If would have to drink oil - it would take me one complete cup of oil (about 250 ml) to achieve 2000 kcal intake!

These things are physically impossible to achieve if your only calories intake (food and drink) is limited to two or one instances per day.

Compare this with eating 6 times a day. VERY easy to over consume food.
(eating 250 g =1 cup cooked rice per meal, or drinking 40 ml = 2-3 table spoon oil)

The whole issue is that eating 10 times a day is a great way to increase body weight. Muscles as well as fat. It increases the base insulin levels in blood. Which means more nutrients being pushed into cells. Also you can consume more calories without feeling sick.

But it may not the most efficient way to proceed if fat loss if what one is after. Of course if one has utmost will power and meticulous nature to keep a tab on each and every calorie being consumed - it will certainly work.
[On a side note, even what I am saying requires will power since you have only 1-2 feeding instances and not the all 14-20 hours of our lives when we are awake]
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Just because our ancestors didn't eat breakfast doesn't mean that we dont need to. Look at the life expectancy of our ancestors as well!
.
Only difference that we see in terms of average years of life expectancy because of medicines and surgery. Nothing else has changed. Perhaps the incidence of lifestyle induced disorders and diseases has only increased.

Last edited by alpha1 : 15th July 2014 at 17:56.
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Old 15th July 2014, 18:48   #3675
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And even if I were to gorge I would have to eat about 571 g (more than 2 cups) of rice to consume 2000 kcal. This is dried raw rice. Not cooked. Usually rice takes up 2 times water. Which means a person would have to eat about 1.5 kg of cooked rice and still end up with a caloric deficit (assuming he required more than 2000 kcal per day)

If would have to drink oil - it would take me one complete cup of oil (about 250 ml) to achieve 2000 kcal intake!

These things are physically impossible to achieve if your only calories intake (food and drink) is limited to two or one instances per day.

Compare this with eating 6 times a day. VERY easy to over consume food.
(eating 250 g =1 cup cooked rice per meal, or drinking 40 ml = 2-3 table spoon oil)
That is overly simplified and not a real scenario. No one will eat plain rice or drink plain oil when hungry! Only Popeye eats spinach (that too from a can) when he feels low on energy. When you are eating 6 times a day, you are actually eating in way smaller doses and thus, keeping your liver, pancreas etc from being overloaded. It is when you gorge on one meal when your system gets overloaded.

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
The whole issue is that eating 10 times a day is a great way to increase body weight. Muscles as well as fat. It increases the base insulin levels in blood. Which means more nutrients being pushed into cells. Also you can consume more calories without feeling sick.

But it may not the most efficient way to proceed if fat loss if what one is after. Of course if one has utmost will power and meticulous nature to keep a tab on each and every calorie being consumed - it will certainly work.
[On a side note, even what I am saying requires will power since you have only 1-2 feeding instances and not the all 14-20 hours of our lives when we are awake]
I dont think i am advocating eating ten times a day. Like i said a few times before, 3 balanced meals a day and 2 snacks in between have been optimal for me in losing weight. Why would I want to unnecessarily put my will power to test by starving myself for half a day when there is another, much easier and less biologically taxing method of achieving what i want. Starving is not the only way to lose weight. Being smart about your diet will yield much better and more satisfying results.

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Only difference that we see in terms of average years of life expectancy because of medicines and surgery. Nothing else has changed. Perhaps the incidence of lifestyle induced disorders and diseases has only increased.
Going off topic now, but my point is that it is not necessary that what was being done a 100 years back was necessarily right and should be adhered to now as well. Otherwise evolution would be pointless (please don't post another link that debunks evolution )
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