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Old 7th September 2013, 13:54   #76
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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1. I don't recall a Windows Server crashing on me anytime in the last 10 years. I don't even remember Win7 crashing one.

2. I think among Unixes, AIX & Solaris have journaling from around the same time as NT. Irix has journaling from the mid 90s, I think.
1. Yes, Win XP SP2/3 are stable versions as is Win 7.

2. You have your answer there my friend. The Unix-es were also separate entities / competitiors then. Point is, MS FAT FS never dreamt of such features, it was never designed for multi user purposes. TCP/IP was integral to Unix-es, networking with Ethernet came with 95.
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Old 7th September 2013, 14:02   #77
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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1. Yes, Win XP SP2/3 are stable versions as is Win 7.
So your comment of "less robust and inherently flawed in their design approach" was basically about Microsoft OSes of 10+ years back then?

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2. You have your answer there my friend.
I don't get it - what answer do I have?
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The Unix-es were also separate entities / competitiors then.
They still are. But what does that have to do with anything?
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Point is, MS FAT FS never dreamt of such features, it was never designed for multi user purposes.
It wasn't because it was designed for a single user OS. It would have been ridiculous to design a multi user FS for a single user OS. But you have NTFS for 20+ years now. So I am not sure I get your point.

I am fully with you that one shouldn't use 15+ year old Microsoft OS's any more.
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TCP/IP was integral to Unix-es, networking with Ethernet came with 95.
If your point is that we shouldn't use Windows 3.1 anymore, I fully agree with it.

Last edited by carboy : 7th September 2013 at 14:14.
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Old 7th September 2013, 15:24   #78
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Hi Sudeep,
Looks like you are an MS employee / developer and have taken things to heart. While most comments were on the lighter side, there is no denying the fact that MS products are made to be user - friendly at the cost of being less robust and inherently flawed in their design approach. Next, MS is also known to be a big copy cat (using features and technology that has been proven by other OS / rivals) to deliver the seemingly "good and value" software that you are referring to. A good example is the NT File system which is MS version of the Unix FS.

Every developer knows the values of bugs. The "value" comes when you put out a software for test albeit in the user's premises, that's what MS does and then earns brownie points by releasing fixes ans updates. I have developed software for airborne avionics applications that have never required patches or updates to deliver bombs from 12 km with a CEP of 5m.

The platform should be robust in not allowing rogue device drivers to permit operations capable of OS crashing. That is not a 3rd party flaw, it is the OS flaw.

MS has always used their clout to subdue other products and buy them out when their popularity seemed threatening. Cases of hotmail, Netscape vs IE and the Nokia handsets now are apt examples.

All in all, its better for consumers like us when such upheavals happen, we stand to benefit, one way or the other.
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Thats true. Being an OS you can't let all and sundry application to take over & crash the system.

The point is, MS has a company refused to honor security concerns till they burnt their fingers. Unix was mature by then. MS didn't even pick up the best practices. For instance,
1) Separation of root & non-root operations, which Unix had since its birth. MS by default ran everything as root and fell in the pit.
2) Allowing un-trusted device drivers & applications to run as root.

MS got their act finally together in Win XP SP2 and Win 7 is a good desktop OS (after Ballmar bungled Vista). It is interesting to note that Bill Gates had a say in XP & Win7.

I will tell you a light hearted joke - A helicopter pilot was lost because of a failure in the radar. He was hovering around a building and shouted out to some folks in that building - Where am I? The reply came: You are in a helicopter. The pilot immediately realized where he was and landed safely. When asked how he figured out where he was, he replied - It had to be the Microsoft building. They gave me a technically correct but useless answer.

There is nothing for me to take to heart this conversation. What I am trying to say is that people forget the fact that Windows was designed to run on different hardware platforms right from the beginning (Echoing in on Samurai's point). This is the reason why it still runs on any average joe's machine, but clearly there are hiccups. Microsoft made the choice to go with hardware that can be assembled from different vendors and an OS run on it. This gives room for others to build driver software and run it on the OS. If the driver software cannot run in the kernel where you have access to hardware, where else should it run? So it does not make sense to say they needed to build an OS that was "fool proof" against every crap you could throw against it. It was never designed to be a real time or mission critical OS, but rather it was a commerical OS that is capable or running on most hardware. Apple on the other hand builds proprietary hardware and therefore is more robust because they control what can run on it in a very tight way.

BTW, windows today warns you when you attempt to install an uncertified driver software. Isn't that fair? I have not had Windows crash on me in a very long time except when it was a hardware fault. All I had to do was take care to install correct and certified drivers. Also to clarify on msdivy's point - Applications today cannot take down the Windows OS, they run in a special mode where if it faults, it crashes and that's the end of it. Windows crash occurs when you run into bugs in the driver software running in kernel, not otherwise.

It does not take to be an MS employee to know the underpinning of Windows or vouch for Microsoft. Mark Russinovich who reverse engineered most of windows wasn't a Microsoft employee for a long time and even wrote Windows internals just by studying the OS and how it functions.

To conclude - I respect your comments but I also firmly believe many of us have a one sided view of why Windows and what it is today along with other MS Software. There are pros and cons to software made by Microsoft, (this is just me) I think their Office software suite is by far the best I know that exists in market today. That said, I love apple products and many other products out there from many other companies that works like a charm! I also respect Windows for its design and engineering to be able to run on many different kinds of hardware & provide developers the flexibility to built enterprise and consumer software although it is still does not have the ability to deal with 100% of bugs that may be thrown at it.

Friends, I just want to clarify that my stand is neutral rather than bashing with just one side view.
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Old 7th September 2013, 18:35   #79
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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This is the reason why it still runs on any average joe's machine, but clearly there are hiccups.

It was never designed to be a real time or mission critical OS, but rather it was a commercial OS that is capable or running on most hardware.

Friends, I just want to clarify that my stand is neutral rather than bashing with just one side view.
I guess sudeep's post has clarified most of the issues being discussed. @carboy, I have picked out points relevant to your queries as well. Hope you get what I mean.
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Old 7th September 2013, 19:33   #80
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Majority of the people who go about thrashing MS do not really understand the value proposition they offer. ...
If a 'Value Proposition' is not really understandable / understood by common users in it's intended market, it is either a proposition years ahead of it's time (sometimes, but haven't seen any from MS), or most likely does not have any recognizable value in the proposition (most of the times).

MS relies on Salesmen with the proverbial ability to 'sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo', never realizing they have lost sync. Is there any point in grand sales talk with presumed benefits when the users are incredulous, finding the spiel incredible?

As others said, please don't feel offended by the lack of positive feeling towards some MS products. Most people are speaking from their experiences.

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I don't recall a Windows Server crashing on me anytime in the last 10 years. I don't even remember Win7 crashing once.
'Crashing' (BSOD) is not a sanguine criteria, since it is difficult to separate hardware malfunctions from software. 'Unable to respond to User requests' would be a better way to put it. Windows Server does suffer from software malfunction, especially if there is a large mix of different applications running. And yes, it isn't that bad at all as it is made out to be.

Windows 7? Well, well, well! No, it isn't half as bad as it's predecessors. But then it is just a UI layer over the original NT, right? Ever considered why would a windowing system fail, requiring restart (not reboot)? File Explorer taking the UI down at will when encountering problems with devices and volumes? Nothing to with the underlying 'OS', right?

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... So which Unix FS is NTFS a copy of? ...
VMS and Ultrix! DEC PRIME, which first used it, had components from these. PRIME reincarnated as Windows NT.

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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
... AIX & Solaris have journaling from around the same time as NT ...
Dates don't match. AIX JFS and Solaris file systems are from a time that NT was not even conceived of. NT got it from PRIME, which got it from VMS/Ultrix, which got it from ... there is a long history.

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... Gates asked Cutler to join MS and build an OS - WinNT is the result of that. ...
Cutler and colleagues made PRIME at DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation). But PRIME was not something that was in line with DEC's philosophy of OS (VMS was strong on VAX), was meant for 16 & 32-bit processors and not scalable. Cutler and co. were given a 'no interest' sign-off, and they took it to Bill (no one else was 'giving them grass', as the Hindi saying goes). He agreed to invest - as he was getting something in an almost mature proto state. Something they had never imagined they could ever make. At that time MS only had a something that pretended to be an OS. MS teams only had to add bits and pieces around the PRIME code, like networking etc.
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Old 7th September 2013, 22:56   #81
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Another thing is that the architect for WinNT from the beginning (20+ years back) was Dave Culter. Cutler used to work for DEC(VAX/VMS). The OS he was working on there got cancelled after they completed building it. At that time, Gates asked Cutler to join MS and build an OS - WinNT is the result of that.
You got everything right except the part in bold. The OS that Dave Cutler was working on was VMS and it still very much operational in the field. It's called OpenVMS now and is owned by HP (from DEC to Compaq to HP). It used to work on VAX hardware, not it runs on Intel Itanium platform. OpenVMS was (and probably still is) one of the most robust and secure OS of all time. Some of the features that came into Unix were from OpenVMS. Features like clustering and real time failover were present in the OS since design, not added on top later. HP is still struggling to phase out OpenVMS because old customers are not willing to migrate to HP-UX. When I was working on OpenVMS, I had seen a VMS box that wasn't rebooted for 23 years in production, can you believe it?

We used to call Windows NT as VMS++ as Dave Cutler basically took all the VMS concepts and designed WNT and V++ M++ S++ is actually W N T .
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Old 8th September 2013, 00:32   #82
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

Guys, I think we are going way OT here. There is no point in comparing the stability of no-MS enterprise servers with MS desktop OS, when the topic is about MS smartphone OS.
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Old 8th September 2013, 07:51   #83
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Dates don't match. AIX JFS and Solaris file systems are from a time that NT was not even conceived of.
AIX JFS was first released in 1990. Cutler joined MS in 1988 & NT started development in 1990.

As for Solaris, yeah it's file system was earlier but did not have journaling.
Solaris got journaling not around the same time as NT, I think but even much later I think - probably 6-7 years after WinNT.
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He agreed to invest - as he was getting something in an almost mature proto state. Something they had never imagined they could ever make. At that time MS only had a something that pretended to be an OS. MS teams only had to add bits and pieces around the PRIME code, like networking etc.
Are you saying they carried the source code of PRIME to Microsoft?

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You got everything right except the part in bold. The OS that Dave Cutler was working on was VMS and it still very much operational in the field.
No, I am talking about PRIME.
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We used to call Windows NT as VMS++ as Dave Cutler basically took all the VMS concepts and designed WNT and V++ M++ S++ is actually W N T .
Yeah, I wrote this in my post.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 8th September 2013 at 08:46. Reason: edited
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Old 8th September 2013, 17:15   #84
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Nitin, I kind of have to disagree with you on this. The OS development for handheld devices is a whole lot different. They have to have a much lesser memory footprint, should be able to do certain actions/events better than desktop OS'es and users wouldnt care if some features are missed out on.
Yes, but I meant the application development and not the development of the mobile operating system. Take Android, for instance. They made the choice of not supporting Swing or AWT and instead used a different API for developing the user interface of applications. Microsoft retained the same IDE with the same drag-drop of controls onto forms, meaning that any Windows Forms developer could be a Mobile Apps developer... till they decided to throw out the baby with the bath water after Windows Mobile 5/6. Right now, application development with HTML, CSS and Javascript is pretty good too - they're following Palm's innovative approach of having the operating system shell act as a web browser.
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Old 8th September 2013, 21:38   #85
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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If a 'Value Proposition' is not really understandable / understood by common users in it's intended market, it is either a proposition years ahead of it's time (sometimes, but haven't seen any from MS), or most likely does not have any recognizable value in the proposition (most of the times).

MS relies on Salesmen with the proverbial ability to 'sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo', never realizing they have lost sync. Is there any point in grand sales talk with presumed benefits when the users are incredulous, finding the spiel incredible?

As others said, please don't feel offended by the lack of positive feeling towards some MS products. Most people are speaking from their experiences..
I respectfully disagree with your comment here. The common man and the enterprise business segment understand the value proposition very well which is why most computers today run Windows and run Server operating systems in the backend. It's a choice they make at the time of purchase of the hardware, not something forced upon them. What I am referring to is the majority of folks who go about MS thrashing don't get that.

I'd like to point out again that there is no ill feeling for the lack of positive feeling towards MS and its products. Everyone here has a right to have his/her opinion about products and services offered by various companies. I am just sharing my opinion and I think you completely missed that from my previous posts.

Last edited by DerAlte : 9th September 2013 at 09:48. Reason: Deleted redundant quote
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Old 9th September 2013, 10:32   #86
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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... The common man and the enterprise business segment understand the value proposition very well which is why most computers today run Windows and run Server operating systems in the backend. ...
Sure, one can disagree, as long as one is talking of the same thing.

If you have to equate 'value proposition' with Windows and Server, in continuation with the your previous expression
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Majority of the people who go about thrashing MS do not really understand the value proposition they offer. ...
then perhaps, unlike others, you are completely unaware of the instances of MS 'value proposition' that doesn't have substantial 'value'. Or is your idea of 'common man' the person who is brought up in schools learning MS Windows and Office given to them for free?

Neither does WS have a predominance in the Server market, nor in all the companies that are now allowing BYOD, does anyone bring in a Windows client machine! Are you aware of the number of *free* licenses to Sharepoint and other software that MS distributes among corporates, just so that it can boast of "highest market share" in comparison to ... Open Source software? I am sure you haven't heard of the Sales line taken by MS: "Sir, you should buy Dynamics AX, even if it is to use it as a DB front end for the MS SQL Server - which incidentally you get free with it"

Since you talked of MS Office, could you please tell me what more does the latest version of MS Office contain as *USABLE FEATURES*, that wasn't already present in the version from, say, 10 years back?

I am sure the others are not interested wasting their time in MS-bashing, and are quite *neutral* when they call a spade a spade.

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... I also respect Windows for its design and engineering to be able to run on many different kinds of hardware ...
Are you aware of the term "WinTel architecture"? You wouldn't have said "run on many different kinds of hardware" otherwise.
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Old 9th September 2013, 15:17   #87
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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then perhaps, unlike others, you are completely unaware of the instances of MS 'value proposition' that doesn't have substantial 'value'. Or is your idea of 'common man' the person who is brought up in schools learning MS Windows and Office given to them for free?

Neither does WS have a predominance in the Server market, nor in all the companies that are now allowing BYOD, does anyone bring in a Windows client machine! Are you aware of the number of *free* licenses to Sharepoint and other software that MS distributes among corporates, just so that it can boast of "highest market share" in comparison to ... Open Source software? I am sure you haven't heard of the Sales line taken by MS: "Sir, you should buy Dynamics AX, even if it is to use it as a DB front end for the MS SQL Server - which incidentally you get free with it"

Since you talked of MS Office, could you please tell me what more does the latest version of MS Office contain as *USABLE FEATURES*, that wasn't already present in the version from, say, 10 years back?
To comment on your remark on MS Office features... right on top of my head I can think of the following features which are NEW in latest MS office offerings which weren't present 10 years back

Office Web Apps
OpenXML support
Multi user document editing
Integration with SharePoint/metadata handling
Social connectors

Would you say these are features which are unusable, even in enterprises? The feature delivery is always in response to market demands, especially in the enterprise segment. If the features aren't appealing to someone, there I'd think there are only 2 possibilities - They don't understand the needs for those features or see a value in the feature and neither is it a use for them and thus the frustration. It also appears there is not enough homework done to undestand what key new features have been delivered & why other than provide a negative blanket statement.

BYOD is new and upcoming & as such I'd agree a lot of other software is in this area. I am also not aware if MS sells SQL Server as free with Dynamics. Your comments seems to suggest that MS provides enterprises with free software and therefore rakes in a higher market share. I have to disagree with you there. Bundled software can be delivered to achieve specific abilities. I don't think it can be classified as "free", but rather it should be looked as lower Total cost of ownership - just like how many auto companies to today to gain market share - Waiving off labour charges/spares etc for first few years of ownership (audi, GM are classic examples). Also what about software like WinZip, Notepad++ etc which was available as free software? Can those be also classified as being given free just so that they gain market share? These are lame arguments and if there are any better ones, I'd like to hear.
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Old 10th September 2013, 19:47   #88
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

Indian mobiles companies are *happy* with this deal ..!

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Rahul Sharma, co-founder of Micromax, is glad that Nokia chose Microsoft and not Google. "I thought that after the disaster with Windows operating system, they would do a rethink and tie up with Google," he says. "But I am happy that this option has been ruled out." Sharma's point is that the Microsoft-Nokia combine won't be able to alter market dynamics in India.
Link: Microsoft-Nokia deal a blessing in disguise for Indian companies like Micromax & Karbonn

Last edited by msdivy : 10th September 2013 at 19:52.
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Old 13th September 2013, 09:19   #89
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

Nokia India shuts online music store.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Ind...cle5119484.ece
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Old 13th September 2013, 09:35   #90
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Default Re: Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, patents and maps

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Nokia India shuts online music store.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Ind...cle5119484.ece
Is this even related to the MS acquisition. The acquisition hasn't happened yet. It's going to be in early 2014.
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