Go Back   Team-BHP > Around the Corner > Shifting gears


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th October 2013, 15:12   #46
Distinguished - BHPian
 
supremeBaleno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Weekdays@Chennai, Weekends@Kerala
Posts: 5,136
Thanked: 1,562 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza
Oh come on, America doesnt bully "every nation"; dont get sucked into the media hype. Okay, to be fair, we do "bully" a lot of nations, but not everyone.
Oh yeah, not everyone, but just those that don't line up with America's wish or the ones who defy but have the wherewithal to back that defiance - like China.
Regarding getting sucked into media-hype, I think you could also look inward and think about the world in general, without just looking at things from a US POV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza
Who would you rather lead the world? China?, Russia? Fact is, the world is better off with America at the front...regardless of whatever transgressions, accurate or inaccurate, that has gone on.
I really don't see the need for any big-brother or world-cop, be it US or Russia or China. And regarding the world being better off with America at the front,
well I think you mean the world as an average American sees it, which is the 50 states. Then yes, it is better for the world aka US.
supremeBaleno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 16:01   #47
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: LAX-SNA-BFL-BLR
Posts: 319
Thanked: 12 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Oh yeah, not everyone, but just those that don't line up with America's wish or the ones who defy but have the wherewithal to back that defiance - like China.
Regarding getting sucked into media-hype, I think you could also look inward and think about the world in general, without just looking at things from a US POV.

I really don't see the need for any big-brother or world-cop, be it US or Russia or China. And regarding the world being better off with America at the front,
well I think you mean the world as an average American sees it, which is the 50 states. Then yes, it is better for the world aka US.
Oh China needs America just as much as we need them, they arent going to challenge America directly militarily at least. They are playing the economic game instead. Frankly, as an Indian, i'd rather have India be the economic engine to complement the US, but India needs to get its own house in order before that can happen substantially.

No trust me, i do think about the world in general. I went to school in India for the better part of a half decade. I have seen the world outside the US. Looking back on it all, there is no place i'd rather be in right now then at home, in California. The US is the world's policeman, like it or not. Nobody else has the clout or power at the current time to solve the various crises' that keep popping up. I know Russia and China have some ability, but for now, its the US's job to do all of this. I dont think, as an Indian, you want to live in a world led by China. I dont think me or many other americans want to be entangled with the rest of the world putting out fires here and there, but the globalized nature of our society makes it so. Frankly, even though our foreign policy isnt the greatest, i'd rather it be us.

Getting back to the debt crises, yes, it was manufactured. All nations have debt, but the US just seems to have a lot more of it. A lot of it was due recently to the Iraq war (Afghanistan was neccessary, so lets not get into that one).
CaliAtenza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 16:01   #48
Distinguished - BHPian
 
amitoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,947
Thanked: 1,584 Times
Default

All this talk of "printing it's own money" seems too simplistic to me. My knowledge on this is limited but it's the Fed that can print more money and not the US govt. and i think the last time the Fed did this was during the 2008 crisis and then too it took strict measures to ensure it did not go into wide circulation. This printing money is quite similar to how the European Central Bank printed euros to bail out Greece. So, there must be some logic or reason behind this, no?
amitoj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 16:57   #49
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pune, Melbourne
Posts: 601
Thanked: 333 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
The point is that you need to have money to pay down the debt (keeping the debt solvent); thats what the whole thing is about now.
Exactly. I wonder where that money is coming from.
Let me guess..from the computer rooms of Fed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
dont get sucked into the media hype.
On the contrary IMO Americans are the most conditioned people on the planet thanks to partisan media

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
Who would you rather lead the world? China?, Russia? Fact is, the world is better off with America at the front...regardless of whatever transgressions, accurate or inaccurate, that has gone on.
Why you need someone to lead the world anyways? Why Americans think they have the moral obligation to lead the world?
C300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 17:26   #50
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,042
Thanked: 13,490 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
Oh come on, America doesnt bully "every nation"; dont get sucked into the media hype. Okay, to be fair, we do "bully" a lot of nations, but not everyone. Who would you rather lead the world? China?, Russia? Fact is, the world is better off with America at the front...regardless of whatever transgressions, accurate or inaccurate, that has gone on.
Bill Maher has a great segment on that.

Viewer discretion is advised, there is some profanity in this video. Go directly to position 2:40 to skip the profanity.

Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 17:39   #51
Distinguished - BHPian
 
amitoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,947
Thanked: 1,584 Times
Default

Haha. We can kiss north eastern India goodbye the day China replaces US in the super power rankings. Oh and Kashmir too.
amitoj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 17:48   #52
Distinguished - BHPian
 
supremeBaleno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Weekdays@Chennai, Weekends@Kerala
Posts: 5,136
Thanked: 1,562 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza
No trust me, i do think about the world in general. I went to school in India for the better part of a half decade. I have seen the world outside the US. Looking back on it all, there is no place i'd rather be in right now then at home, in California.
We have also seen India and other places including the US and I have the same feeling - I would rather be in India than any place else. There was a time when the US could get away with bombing other countries to dust and ensure safety of their homeland, but the 911 incident rocked that perception. While in the US, I would wade through the 1kg or more of the daily newspaper (Atlanta Journal Constitution) to get an idea of the news coverage and the focus would be almost 95% on US. The remaining 5% would be mostly about a negative incident in other countries. For eg. the small blink-and-you-would-miss-it article about India that I saw in a full week of browsing through the papers was about the stampede in UP where many women were killed trying to collect free sarees from Vajpayee. So you know how media coverage there is. Pick up any Indian newspaper and you will see the whole world covered. That's the difference between how informed about global affairs a US and Indian citizen are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza
Getting back to the debt crises, yes, it was manufactured. A lot of it was due recently to the Iraq war (Afghanistan was neccessary, so lets not get into that one).
Oh yeah, Afghanistan was necessary. Because there were evil folks there. But wait, who had armed the evil ones a decade or more ago against the Russians ? The US. So, yeah, when it feels like, it will arm the evil ones and when the fancy wanes, they will put on the super-cop hat and go to war against them. Great. And this is supposedly the nation we should have as a world cop. I think you need to think outside the box (US).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza
The US is the world's policeman, like it or not. Nobody else has the clout or power at the current time to solve the various crises' that keep popping up.
Yes, we need them to solve the crises which they themselves create. LOL.
supremeBaleno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 17:48   #53
999
BHPian
 
999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 227
Thanked: 84 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
Looking back on it all, there is no place i'd rather be in right now then at home, in California. The US is the world's policeman, like it or not.
Nobody else has the clout or power at the current time to solve the various crises' that keep popping up. I know Russia and China have some ability, but for now, its the US's job to do all of this.
I am intrigued by the world policeman comment.
They really played the world police man
1. In Syria (cut to a corner and got out shamefully) where they submitted meekly to the Russians.
2. In Libya, In Egypt, In Tunisia, in Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran. Every where they saved the world. Tell me one example of US interference where it was helpful to the host country.
By the way I am not sure whether you know about a French colony where 400 people were killed a day during the same time as war in Libys. I am yet to hear an international response on that from the world policemen.
When did you spend half a decade in India? during pre-primary school?, from your words it sounds so. Sorry if that offended you.
999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 18:40   #54
Senior - BHPian
 
alpha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: P00NA
Posts: 1,613
Thanked: 949 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
All this talk of "printing it's own money" seems too simplistic to me. My knowledge on this is limited but it's the Fed that can print more money and not the US govt. and i think the last time the Fed did this was during the 2008 crisis and then too it took strict measures to ensure it did not go into wide circulation. This printing money is quite similar to how the European Central Bank printed euros to bail out Greece. So, there must be some logic or reason behind this, no?
No one prints the money as such and throws into the system.
The Fed owns the Dollar bill. Same way RBI does in India rupee.
The US govt is technically a user of this dollar bill. (for its expenses - like any other enterprise or person)

If US govt cannot earn money through all kind of taxes on citizens and enterprises, then it raises money through bonds (= loan). These bonds allow Govts to run on deficit. In turn govt expenditure allows the more money to be circulated in the economy.

If this is not enough to revive the economy (actually most countries run on deficit perpetually, so this is always true), then how do you increase the flow of money? Well the central bank lowers the interest rates and/or plays around with the reserve ratios (the amount that other banks have to park with the central bank). This allows more money to be circulated in the economy.

If your economy is still not performing well, what do you do? This is where the central bank starts buying the bonds and assets of other banks and financial institutions (which may be a mix of govt bonds + private lending). Why? To circulate even more money in the economy.

Is it the same as printing money?
Ultimately all the bonds purchases have to be squared off at their maturity. If the economy does not perform well by then, then you will need to print more money to allow square off.

Last edited by alpha1 : 18th October 2013 at 18:42.
alpha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 19:05   #55
Distinguished - BHPian
 
amitoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,947
Thanked: 1,584 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
No one prints the money as such and throws into the system.
Thank you very much for explaining it in such simple words!!

So, at the end of the day its just plain economics, right? Every government runs on deficit (like you said) because it has to provide services for which the returns are negative (healthcare, education, government salaries etc etc) But in the case of US government it is getting out of hand now but not as out of control as it did for the PIG countries (Portugal, Italy and Greece)
Part of the reason for this deficit is the huge bailout that the government funded for the big industries a few years back.
amitoj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 19:44   #56
BHPian
 
Jomz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit, MI,USA
Posts: 808
Thanked: 287 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 999 View Post
Tell me one example of US interference where it was helpful to the host country.
World war 1 & 2. Without US playiing world policeman in Europe & asia - things would be really different.

That was a long time ago. I don't know whether it is still required. But most of the American's which I speak to, show this example and say how they saved the world from the nazis etc.

Last edited by Jomz : 18th October 2013 at 19:47.
Jomz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 20:00   #57
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,042
Thanked: 13,490 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
All this talk of "printing it's own money" seems too simplistic to me. My knowledge on this is limited but it's the Fed that can print more money and not the US govt.
I have explained this couple years back: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post2617240 (Understanding Economics)
Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 23:23   #58
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: LAX-SNA-BFL-BLR
Posts: 319
Thanked: 12 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 999 View Post
I am intrigued by the world policeman comment.
They really played the world police man
1. In Syria (cut to a corner and got out shamefully) where they submitted meekly to the Russians.
2. In Libya, In Egypt, In Tunisia, in Somalia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran. Every where they saved the world. Tell me one example of US interference where it was helpful to the host country.
By the way I am not sure whether you know about a French colony where 400 people were killed a day during the same time as war in Libys. I am yet to hear an international response on that from the world policemen.
When did you spend half a decade in India? during pre-primary school?, from your words it sounds so. Sorry if that offended you.
I went to medical school in Bangalore . Well it wasn't so much as offensive as a childish statement. Vietnam was not our brightest moment, but this is what people fail to understand whenever these arguments come up. People never go back and read the history. I am a student of history and I know most everything the US did during the Cold War had to do with communism and preventing the spread of it. To that end, a lot of bad things and mistakes were committed but it must be viewed in the context of communism. Are we paying for some of that now, especially with regards to Afghanistan/Pakistan, yes we are, and quite dearly in some cases...but who knows what would have happened if the Russians had held Afghanistan.
CaliAtenza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2013, 23:50   #59
Distinguished - BHPian
 
amitoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,947
Thanked: 1,584 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Nice. Although that was not exactly the explanation i was looking for. I was merely hinting at the possibility that people accusing US of indiscriminately printing money may not be looking at the full picture and may probably be unsuspecting victims of media hype.

But speaking of currencies, what is the deal with bitcoins? Many geeks are touting it as the next big global currency.
amitoj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2013, 00:50   #60
999
BHPian
 
999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 227
Thanked: 84 Times
Default Re: US Government Shutdown leading to Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
World war 1 & 2. Without US playiing world policeman in Europe & asia - things would be really different.

That was a long time ago. I don't know whether it is still required. But most of the American's which I speak to, show this example and say how they saved the world from the nazis etc.
The sole reason why the Americans got into world war 2 was because they were sucked into it by Pearl harbour. They did help the French, that is another story all together.
They did save the jews from Nazis, but they also gave the world cold war for 50 years. But from the creation of Israel in 1950s' most of the things done by them is evil for the globe.
Also on the boundaries of imagination, Subash Chandra bose would had his way for freedom in India if US was out of equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliAtenza View Post
I went to medical school in Bangalore . Well it wasn't so much as offensive as a childish statement. Vietnam was not our brightest moment, but this is what people fail to understand whenever these arguments come up. People never go back and read the history. I am a student of history and I know most everything the US did during the Cold War had to do with communism and preventing the spread of it. To that end, a lot of bad things and mistakes were committed but it must be viewed in the context of communism. Are we paying for some of that now, especially with regards to Afghanistan/Pakistan, yes we are, and quite dearly in some cases...but who knows what would have happened if the Russians had held Afghanistan.
Ok, that is comforting. Communism/Capitalism are both evil at extremes. Anything for that matter is evil at extremes.
I would like to know why you/America consider communism as bad in principle (as you said Americans are all for principles). Also why capitalism is good?. As a history student, you might remember that American fought shoulder to shoulder with the Russians in the world war.
I am happy that the Americans realising/harvesting the effects of the good deeds they did in Afghanistan themselves now.
To answer your question, if Russians held Afghanistan, America would still have the world trade center.
Many more are starting to bite back. Due to intense freedom of expression in the country, they have a dedicated department for internal spying.
Also kindly enlighten me about the communism involved in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Middle east, Iran (CIA-Shah nexus in the 60s, best friends then),Pakistan (allied with them against India in war twice).
Hope you know about the Iranian oil bourse and subsequently how they became the axis of evil.
Also out of curiosity, why do you chose to learn medicine in India rather than in the mighty US?
Thank god we have a land of idiots so that we have a billion dollar BPO industry and a place for better paid jobs.

Last edited by 999 : 19th October 2013 at 00:52.
999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long term shutdown turbofreak Technical Stuff 3 18th July 2007 14:34
BOOM and shutdown humyum Technical Stuff 6 7th May 2007 18:32
Indica V2 Diesel shutdown in middle of the road kaustubh_vaze Technical Stuff 22 6th April 2007 23:42
Fiat Auto to shutdown Indian subsidiary cnu The Indian Car Scene 4 24th September 2005 10:05


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:01.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks