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Old 12th March 2014, 13:35   #61
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

We have pilots on our forum, can they give any perspective? My heart goes out to the loved ones of everyone onboard that flight. Theres nothing worst than just waiting for confirmation of your loved one being dead or alive. Really sad, but what shocks me is that we are asked to believe that the technology in play is modern, very equipped and safe. In this case, vital instruments were not in place. Last night i flew an Air India Flight from Chennai to Mumbai ( AI 0571 ), that aircraft was really old, at some locations it had painit peeled off from its nose ( i saw it while walking through the aero bridge ), the interiors were very old, the flight stinked, my seat had pieces of chapati on it. Worst, my seat was 5A, i could see the left wing. When the aircraft starts moving, a very bright white blinker starts on the edge of the wings, this blinker was so light even i couldnt see it properly. I dont know what impact this would have on the safety of the flight, but then i started questioning, how many things inside the aircraft are not working ?
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Old 12th March 2014, 14:01   #62
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How likely is this assumption.

The Plain had a major malfunction so all electronic communication was lost, the pilots managed to land it intact on water, and it slowly sunk in shallow sea intact.
Being shallow the pressure was not enough to destroy the fuselage, so debris have not been found.
With no fresh air in the pressurized cabin people inside suffocated.

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Old 12th March 2014, 14:29   #63
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

If the plain landed on water, it would have stayed afloat for enough time for the passengers to bail out.
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Old 12th March 2014, 14:43   #64
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

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Originally Posted by Dieselritzer View Post
how many things inside the aircraft are not working ?
Believe me, your would'nt want to know, a very close friend of mine used to frequently travel AI. Before his every trip his dad would call him to advise on which flight to take on certain dates. B'cos the Aircraft were old.

Flights are scheduled a a few days before along with the registration number and the pilot. So being a member of the staff he used to warn his only child against possible dangers.

Last edited by shivshanker : 12th March 2014 at 14:55.
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Old 12th March 2014, 15:35   #65
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Apologies, If I am appearing to be preaching, but the whole idea of having ACARS data from the A/C was to reduce workload on crew, improve data quality and availability, just in time spare parts etc. etc.

This was also supposed to be interfaced with flight scheduling and planning for providing sufficient time for turn around of the aircraft.

Now even in an Aircraft, which is supposed to be the epitome of automation and sophistication if we say one has to download the data manually, I see this as a big time negligence on part of the airline. B'cos in this type of manual intervention, the data has to be downloaded at the RAMP, taken back to the terminal wherein the data can be uploaded and analysed.

This is not a practical solution to a safety issue and IMHO the folks at MH are cutting corners and playing with the lives of passengers.
.
I really dont think not broadcasting ACARs data is a safety issue, It is an efficiency issue. Whether a plane takes off or not, i.e. is deemed air worthy is based on MEL (Minimum equipment list) or whatever the appropiate manufacturer name for it is. So before any flight leaves the gate the crew will go through the various annunciations and check what actions need to be taken to be able to take off. Nothing that ACARS does to that at that point. The fact that MH doesn't broadcast the ACARS data doesnt mean the crew would not radio ahead to disucss and make the maintenance crew aware of any pending issues. Again, efficiency, not necessarily safety.

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I guess it is a situation where slow decompression would have set in leaving all the members unconscious. The flight would have proceeded on auto pilot mode as long as fuel is available before crashing into the waters.
But the malaysian officials have said that the plane could have gone back from its intended route. How is this possible in auto pilot mode.
Or is it some case of hijacking or deliberate attempt by the crew member??
Slow decompression is not a problem at all, in the sense that it would be picked by system and would have resulted in various alarms on which the crew would have taken action, by if needed donning oxygen mask, trouble shooting and descending in a controlled way to below FL120-100. It's a sudden decompression that calls for very fast action, don oxygen mask and initiated an emergency descent. Its a manoevre that all commercial crews are well versed in. So unless something was wrong with the system monitoring the cabin pressure as well as the oxygen system I don't believe either scenario is an explanation. Now if the sudden decompression happens due to a serious tear or crack and or bits of the airplane start following off you enter a whole different realm, potentially this could also lead to serious flight control issues and the airplane becoming uncontrollable and breaking up.



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The US Government has reported that no explosions have happened in the area by looking into their spy satellite photography at that time.
Just depends on who you want to believe. Various sites are mentioning that it would be near impossible to see such an explosion from space, or you need to be very lucky. I just dont know, but I would think it would be very hard to see/detect

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Old 12th March 2014, 15:51   #66
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

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Slow decompression is not a problem at all, in the sense that it would be picked by system and would have resulted in various alarms on which the crew would have taken action, by if needed donning oxygen mask, trouble shooting and descending in a controlled way to below FL120-100. It's a sudden decompression that calls for very fast action, don oxygen mask and initiated an emergency descent. Its a manoevre that all commercial crews are well versed in. So unless something was wrong with the system monitoring the cabin pressure as well as the oxygen system I don't believe either scenario is an explanation. Now if the sudden decompression happens due to a serious tear or crack and or bits of the airplane start following off you enter a whole different realm, potentially this could also lead to serious flight control issues and the airplane becoming uncontrollable and breaking up.

Jeroen
Aviation experts have questioned the safety of Boeing 777 with regard to cracks in fuselage that can lead to decompression. This can be a possibility
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Old 12th March 2014, 16:13   #67
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

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I really dont think not broadcasting ACARs data is a safety issue, It is an efficiency issue. Whether a plane takes off or not, i.e. is deemed air worthy is based on MEL (Minimum equipment list) or whatever the appropiate manufacturer name for it is. So before any flight leaves the gate the crew will go through the various annunciations and check what actions need to be taken to be able to take off. Nothing that ACARS does to that at that point. The fact that MH doesn't broadcast the ACARS data doesnt mean the crew would not radio ahead to disucss and make the maintenance crew aware of any pending issues. Again, efficiency, not necessarily safety.

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Jeroen, looks like you missed my point on the turnaround of A/c at international airports would the airline be willing to wait for the flight to return back to base to download and analyze data. Not a good implementation.

Otherwise as well I would beg to differ with you on the safety part, in today's world, where in we are striving to automate processes to reduce human error, MH has turned an automated process into a completely manual process. Humans introduce errors and make mistakes, that was the fundamental reason hence the flight computers were introduced to control the cruise phase of the journey

MH today has a total of 98 Aircraft listed and in my personal opinion one would be overwhelmed with the amount of data to be analyzed.

ACARS implementation provides automation right from the OOOI stages, streams back performance data and more important is information can be relayed back to the a/c by the base.

my final submission is at FL350 ACARS might be just a reporting utility back to base, but if you peel the layers of this onion called ACARS it does much more than just provide information.

Since I am from the IT world, I can tell you for a fact that people are thinking of mining social media data to design marketing campaigns and older the data is more irrelevant the campaign becomes, this is like the news paper business. today's newsprint is thrash tomm.

Last edited by shivshanker : 12th March 2014 at 16:15.
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Old 12th March 2014, 16:42   #68
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivshanker View Post
Jeroen, looks like you missed my point on the turnaround of A/c at international airports would the airline be willing to wait for the flight to return back to base to download and analyze data. Not a good implementation.

Otherwise as well I would beg to differ with you on the safety part, in today's world, where in we are striving to automate processes to reduce human error, MH has turned an automated process into a completely manual process. Humans introduce errors and make mistakes, that was the fundamental reason hence the flight computers were introduced to control the cruise phase of the journey

MH today has a total of 98 Aircraft listed and in my personal opinion one would be overwhelmed with the amount of data to be analyzed.

ACARS implementation provides automation right from the OOOI stages, streams back performance data and more important is information can be relayed back to the a/c by the base.

my final submission is at FL350 ACARS might be just a reporting utility back to base, but if you peel the layers of this onion called ACARS it does much more than just provide information.

Since I am from the IT world, I can tell you for a fact that people are thinking of mining social media data to design marketing campaigns and older the data is more irrelevant the campaign becomes, this is like the news paper business. today's newsprint is thrash tomm.
I know a bit about IT and aviation. What MH is doing was for many carriers standard practice and still is. To your first point, that is what I call efficiency. But I don't think a plane ever has to wait for its ACARS data to be downloaded. Again, anything to do with flight safety is visible in the cockpit and part of the normal procedures before commencing a flight, no amount of data in ACARS is going to change that.

I'm not sure how MH has implemented the handling of the ACARS data, but typically it goes out on a simple data link. Inflight it is typically on a satcom link. So the data integrity is never an issue, it is not handled by humans.

You claim there is a direct correlation between ACARS data being sent whilst in flight. I'm doubtfull because I'm not aware of any procedure or anything material to flight safety and or air worthiness that would be kept in ACARS and would not be available to the cockpit crew through their instruments and procedurs. Please explain in a specific example what ACARS data would add to flight safety that is not captured in the normal procedures, MEL and checklist a crew goes through.

In your previous post you state:

Quote:
the folks at MH are cutting corners and playing with the lives of passengers
I think you need to be very specific in pointing out what you mean and why you think that is. The way I read it, you are talking in very broad and general terms about automation and humar error.

So again, please explain in a specific example what ACARS data would add to flight safety that is not captured in the normal procedures, MEL and checklist a crew goes through.

Jeroen

Note from Support - Post edited. Please avoid getting into a confrontation with fellow members.

Last edited by n_aditya : 13th March 2014 at 08:39.
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Old 12th March 2014, 16:42   #69
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I am checking the news from last 3 days and believe the worst would have happened.My heart goes out to the loved ones of everyone onboard that flight.Now going through one of the British news channels, i came across a comment by someone which i think one of the possible reason along with http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/

The reader named tenbelly commented as follows
" Yesterday I posted that this could be a pilot suicide and that the aircraft would be found between Malaysia and Vietnam.I have given this a bit more consideration and conclude that the aircraft will probably never be found.It is somewhere at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and could as far west as the Seychelles.The most likely scenario is that the aircraft had reached cruising altitude. One of the pilots may have gone back into the cabin to talk to the cabin staff and there was a decompression. The remaining pilot turned back towards KL but crucially did not put on his oxygen mask and initiate an emergency descent. Within ten seconds he was unconscious along with the other pilot, wherever he was.
The aircraft was now heading west on autopilot, at or near cruising altitude with two unconscious pilots.The passengers and cabin staff would be on oxygen in the cabin, blissfully unaware that the aircraft was effectively pilotless. After twenty minutes the cabin oxygen would have run out and everyone on the aircraft would be comatose. The aircraft would then have flown on the last selected track until the fuel ran out, possibly another four thousand miles further west. The aircraft would then slow down, stall and enter a spin all the way down into the Indian Ocean. If you want to find this 777, start looking in the Indian Ocean, and a good place to start would somewhere between the Seychelles and The Maldives"
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Old 12th March 2014, 16:48   #70
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Originally Posted by Dieselritzer View Post
In this case, vital instruments were not in place.?
Could you eloborate what vital instruments were found to be missing?

I'm a private pilot, would be great to hear the real pilots on this forum.
In lack of real pilot to datelisten read what pilots here: Professional Pilots forum, best pilot forum on the web. (see if you can spot me).

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...-lost-112.html

Jeroen
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Old 12th March 2014, 17:11   #71
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Mates, this is the latest update on the fate of MH370....

An oil rig worker has said that he believes he may have seen the Malaysia Airlines plane come down.
Mike McKay tells the Vietnamese authorities that he tried to contact them and Malaysia several days ago but is unsure his message was received.
Telling them he works on the Songa Mercur rig off Vung Tau, Vietnam, he says: "While I observed the burning (plane) it appeared to be in ONE piece.
"From when I first saw the burning (plane) until the flames went out (still at high altitude) was 10-15 seconds.
"There was no lateral movement, so it was either coming toward our location, stationary (falling) or going away from our location."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...#ixzz2vkQFF0Lc
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Old 12th March 2014, 17:22   #72
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The 11th media statement by Malaysia Airlines is below. Read the highlighted - bold text about aircraft and their declaration about health, ACARS data etc. That should put some questions about airworthiness of the aircraft hopefully.

Quote:
As we enter into Day 4, the aircraft is yet to be found.

The search and rescue teams (SAR) have expanded the scope beyond the flight path to the West Peninsular of Malaysia at the Straits of Malacca. The authorities are looking at a possibility of an attempt made by MH370 to turn back to Subang. All angles are being looked at. We are not ruling out any possibilities.

The mission is aided by various countries namely Australia, China, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore, Vietnam, Philippines and the United States of America. The assets deployed to cover the search and rescue is extensive. In total there are nine aircraft and 24 vessels deployed on this mission.

Apart from the search in the sea, search on land in between these areas is also conducted.

The search and rescue teams have analysed debris and oil slick found in the waters. It is confirmed that it does not belong to MH370.

The B777-200 aircraft that operated MH370 underwent maintenance on 23 February 2014, 12 days before this particular flight on 8 March 2014. The next check is due on 19 June 2014. The maintenance was conducted at the KLIA hangar and there were no issues on the health of the aircraft.

The aircraft was delivered to Malaysia Airlines in 2002 and have since recorded 53,465.21 hours with a total of 7525 cycles. All Malaysia Airlines aircraft are equipped with continuous data monitoring system called the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) which transmits data automatically. Nevertheless, there were no distress calls and no information was relayed.


Malaysia Airlines has a special task force to take care of families. Mercy Malaysia and Tzu Chi and others are also helping Malaysia Airlines by providing special psychological counseling to families and also the MH crew.

The Chinese government officials in Malaysia are also working closely with Malaysia Airlines. A representative from the embassy is stationed at the Emergency Operations Centre to assist with the emergency management and matters related to families in Kuala Lumpur.

In Beijing, the Prime Ministerís special envoy to China, Tan Sri Ong Ka Ting is there to assist and coordinate all operational matters with Malaysia Airlines.

We regret and empathise with the families and we will do whatever we can to ensure that all basic needs, comfort, psychological support are delivered. We are as anxious as the families to know the status of their loved ones.

To the families of the crew on-board MH370, we share your pain and anxiety. They are of the MAS family and we are deeply affected by this unfortunate incident.

Malaysia Airlines reiterates that it will continue to be transparent in communicating with the general public via the media on all matters affecting MH370.
All the statements are recorded here.

With very little to no hopes for the survivals, the least everyone can expect is to end this wait for the families and relatives that are in direct distress due to this.
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Old 12th March 2014, 17:38   #73
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Have been looking around everywhere on the Net for insights into this unfortunate episode. Its a no-brainer that all information currently available is nothing but mere speculation.

So far, the discussion here has been pretty informative and technical -

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...-lost-114.html

Malaysia has finally asked India to join the SAR operations as well -

http://in.news.yahoo.com/live--after...050909598.html

Thanks Jeroen for all the insights.

Last edited by Safety is Param : 12th March 2014 at 17:40.
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Old 12th March 2014, 17:57   #74
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A beautiful video of the exact same missing Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 9M-MRO landing in Frankfurt in August 2012 shot by an aviation fan.

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Old 12th March 2014, 18:20   #75
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Does a plane split into pieces upon impact with water. Some time there was a case where a plane landed into a river in the US and all the passengers were safe. The plane too was intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549
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