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Old 18th July 2014, 09:26   #31
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Shocked and in horror of this tragedy. Just could not believe what I was hearing yesterday. My deepest sympathies with the families.

Whoever has done this, and it seems Pro - Russians are involved, they cannot be pardoned.

Neither the Russians or the Americans are white doves. The debate is never ending. The Russian propaganda mills would need to work overtime to clear this one out. Our own newspaper might also be sympathetic to them.

How can governments and people be so irresponsible? Nothing or no-one is safe now.

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Old 18th July 2014, 09:32   #32
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Ukraine released recordings of Phone call intercepts -Russians did it - thats what it looks like now !

Sad that it happened to Malaysian Airlines again.

RIP - all aboard
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Old 18th July 2014, 09:44   #33
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

The interesting part is that during that time there were two more airlines almost in the same vicinity as MH17 as can be seen from Planetradar24.com. MH17 was also flying at 33000ft so its a very very targeted strike.
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Old 18th July 2014, 09:51   #34
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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The interesting part is that during that time there were two more airlines almost in the same vicinity as MH17 as can be seen from Planetradar24.com. MH17 was also flying at 33000ft so its a very very targeted strike.
From what I have read, NOTAM (Notice To Air Men) was issued to avoid the airway upto FL320 (32,000 feet). MH17, "supposedly" complied to it and was flying at FL330 which is perfectly legal but still dangerous as a BUK Surface to Air missile can easily reach that altitude. It was flying slightly north due to bad weather on the usual corridor route. There was a Singapore Airlines and a Air India flight in the vicinity at the time MH17 was shot down. Personally I think, it was MH17 being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Nothing to blame the pilots as they were probably being guided by Ukrainian ATC. It could have been any other aircraft in its place. But thats why it is called bad luck I guess. Obviously, the attack cannot be justified. Today, in 2014, it very easy for someone, even a layman, to notice the difference between a military jet and a harmless civilian aircraft. So it was on purpose.

Against all the speculation and videos / audios / pictures being spread on the internet, we will have to wait for the genuine truth to come out. That is, if it ever does. And I highly doubt if we will ever know what exactly happened here.

Last edited by Stratos : 18th July 2014 at 10:01.
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:00   #35
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Against all the speculation and videos / audios / pictures being spread on the internet, we will have to wait for the genuine truth to come out. That is, if it ever does. And I highly doubt if we will ever know what exactly happened here.
Yeah true the truth may not come out at all, look at MH375, nothing has come out as of now and the news has almost died down now. It cannot be bad luck of being at the wrong place at the right time, the surface to air missile might be targeting the MH17 thinking its the Russian presidential plane IL-96, which has similar dimensions as the 777. But I am no expert here so will wait for something concrete to come out.

Its sad that majority were dutch passengers probably going for a holiday. RIP
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:07   #36
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Yeah true the truth may not come out at all, look at MH375
You mean MH370.

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.. its the Russian presidential plane IL-96, which has similar dimensions as the 777. But I am no expert here so will wait for something concrete to come out.
The IL96 is a quad-jet whilst the 777 has two engines. But, yes the presidential aircraft and MH aircraft have very similar colors. Again, this is strictly a speculation.
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:10   #37
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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By extension, the friendship between governments also tends to reflect on the general character of their peoples (according to "Show me who ... ").
Strategic friendship between countries are rarely based on common values. In fact, let's stop calling it friendship, and call it strategic relationships. If the enemy says "Hey, wanna buy commodity A from me for a fantastic price?", human will refuse and buy it from else where for higher price. But a country will say "why not" and make the purchase agreement. For example, India buys sugar in huge quantities from Pakistan. And practically everything else from China.

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It is no wonder then, that most progressive countries with a high HDI, freedom index, peacefulness index etc. all tend to be friendly towards each other at a governmental level (and at a human level, too), for birds of a feather flock together.
When their interests align, and they generally do. When they don't, wars can break out between friendly countries. Example, battle of Copenhagen I and II.

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And governments of many Third World countries, rogue regimes, tyrannies, dictatorships etc. try to be friends and flock together under the leadership of the big rogues like Russia and China (just like gangsters - the leader of the gang turns out to be the one who has committed the most murders/crimes).
China is the biggest trading partner of every country these days. While the tiny Cuba is still Pariah and no US citizen can trade or even visit Cuba. Is there any reason to treat Cuba that way anymore, bay of pigs happened too long back. These are not exceptions.

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That's true indeed but as I mentioned, the government of the USA is no angel by any means.
No government is an angel when it comes foreign relations.

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Why then, did the Soviet commies hold back their "flying coffin" supplies to India at the time of the India-China war? Was it because the Indian government was merely a pseudo-commie one (in their eyes) as opposed to the PRC (the real commies)?
I am not aware of this incident. But I won't be surprised. Countries always follow their strategic interest. May be China mattered more to USSR at that time.

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I hate the mediζval Saudi despots for many reasons, but those 9/11 fellows being Saudi by nationality does not necessarily equate to the Saudi regime sponsoring them.
Saudi regime's support for global terrorism is well known, no need to split hair about it. They blame it on private individuals, that is a story only US government is willing to buy.

I see that you and I have diametric view on how foreign policy is made. So, let's agree to disagree.

It is clear from the video that Russian backed rebel militants shot down the aircraft mistaking it for Ukrainian military transport. Both sides are not saints, I had seen this interesting video some time back.


Last edited by Samurai : 18th July 2014 at 10:59. Reason: typo
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:16   #38
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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This doesn't have the range to reach 32000ft, where the airliner was flying.
I don't know much but during the Afghan conflict I remember the Stinger having been advertised with a range of 3 miles that would be about 15000 ft. Now that was some 30 years ago. If they got a version with tice the range now...who knows.
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:35   #39
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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I don't know much but during the Afghan conflict I remember the Stinger having been advertised with a range of 3 miles that would be about 15000 ft. Now that was some 30 years ago. If they got a version with tice the range now...who knows.
It was confirmed by various defense personnel that even the most sophisticated MANPAD can only shoot an object upto a maximum altitude of 14000ft to 15000ft.

This was definitely a much powerful surface-to-air missile. I read somewhere that the separatists in that area had recently got hold of one such BUK system illegally. Its capability of destroying targets is as high as 75000ft.

Last edited by Stratos : 18th July 2014 at 10:44.
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:54   #40
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I read somewhere that the separatists in that area had recently got hold of one such BUK system illegally. Its capability of destroying targets is as high as 75000ft.
This is NOT Hollywood. BUK systems are closely guarded but at one time every nation in the Soviet bloc had them but they were all accounted for and monitored. Whoever did this had some "help" from a government.

I don't know how many Dutch nationals were on that flight but I know this, the Dutch will not take this lying down (why should any nation?).
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Old 18th July 2014, 11:00   #41
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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This is NOT Hollywood. BUK systems are closely guarded but at one time every nation in the Soviet bloc had them but they were all accounted for and monitored. Whoever did this had some "help" from a government.
Definitely agree with you on this. In every case of terrorism we have seen, there was some 'government' support available to extremists especially in gathering their inventory. So, if these BUKs have supposedly come into the hands of the separatists here, it has to be because of government support from the one or the other side.

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I don't know how many Dutch nationals were on that flight but I know this, the Dutch will not take this lying down (why should any nation?).
As per reports, there were 154 Dutch nationals on board.

Last edited by Stratos : 18th July 2014 at 11:07.
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Old 18th July 2014, 11:05   #42
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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This is NOT Hollywood. BUK systems are closely guarded but at one time every nation in the Soviet bloc had them but they were all accounted for and monitored. Whoever did this had some "help" from a government.

I don't know how many Dutch nationals were on that flight but I know this, the Dutch will not take this lying down (why should any nation?).
The separatists posted an update on their webpage saying they shot down AN26.But they took it down.
Their page also had them bragging that now they have a BUK system. Of course Russia gave it to them.
But then Russia and USA both have given some solid weaponry to separatists in various conflicts around the world.
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Old 18th July 2014, 11:15   #43
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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I don't know how many Dutch nationals were on that flight but I know this, the Dutch will not take this lying down (why should any nation?).
Dutch new sites are reporting at least 154 Dutch nationals to have perished. Not sure what we will do though

Here's some information on how the air traffic has started to reroute after this incident. Apparently various carriers had already starting retouring many weeks ago in order avoid this area.

http://time.com/#3002807/malaysia-ai...rash-airspace/

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th July 2014 at 11:29.
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Old 18th July 2014, 12:04   #44
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Has someone gone through this. Not sure about the authenticity of the post.

Link

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The first exchange is between one Igor Bezler, identified as Russian intelligence, and Vasili Geranin, a colonel in the Russian Federation separatist force.
Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
Bezler: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It’s smoking.
Geranin: How many minutes ago?
Bezler: About 30 minutes ago.
This is followed by a subsequent conversation between two separatist rebels identified by Ukrainian intelligence as “Grek” and “Major”, believed to be after an inspection of the crash site.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those Cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code for dead bodies). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
Major”: In short, it was 100 per cent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medical items, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
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Old 18th July 2014, 12:11   #45
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Why then, did the Soviet commies hold back their "flying coffin" supplies to India at the time of the India-China war? Was it because the Indian government was merely a pseudo-commie one (in their eyes) as opposed to the PRC (the real commies)?

They never "held" those MiG-21F-13s back. The deal for the MiG-21s was signed in August 1962 and two months later, the first batch of Indian AF pilots numbered seven, along with fifteen engineers who were nominated to be trained as the ground support staff went to Russia in October 1962, when the Indo-China hostilities broke out.

On their return from Russia these pilots formed the core group of fighter leaders of the new squadron, No.28 "The First Supersonics". The squadron was raised at Chandigarh and was equipped with six MiG-21F-13s (Type 74) aircraft. These aircraft were first shipped to Bombay by ship in January 1963 after which they were assembled and flown to Chandigarh by the pilots.
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