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Old 18th July 2014, 12:25   #46
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Blame game going on with both sides. Ukraine and Rebels supported by Russia are pointing fingers at each other
Whatever reasons may be this shows the scariest scenario of usage of military might on ordinary human beings. These block heads can't identify between a military plane and a passenger jet. Came to know that these type of "accidents" happened in the past with US and Russia too. Can't imagine the plight of those relatives and friends of passengers whose lives are lost.
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Old 18th July 2014, 12:59   #47
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
They have, airline routes have now moved east of this area.
Better late than never. But it's still too late for those three hundred souls.

I hope the airlines keep well away from the conflict-ridden parts of the Middle-East as well. We can't have another tragedy because of a stray Hamas or Israeli missile etc.

My deepest sympathies and condolences to the Dutch people, as the majority of those on board were from the Netherlands.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Dutch new sites are reporting at least 154 Dutch nationals to have perished. Not sure what we will do though.
I hope the Dutch put pressure on their EU, NATO and American friends to punish the criminals and their backers - such as initiating crippling sanctions and an international boycott of the rogue Russkie regime, in order to strangulate it. Eventually, Putin and his KGB-FSB cronies thoroughly deserve a fate similar to the Libyan madman Gadaffi and his thugs.

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Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
A passenger posted this on Facebook right before he boarded Malaysia Airlines MH17, "If it disappears, this is what it looks like."
There seems to something bewitched about Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777s.

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Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
Recording released by Security Service of Ukraine Intercepted phone call, said to be between rebels discussing which rebel militant group shot down the aircraft and initial reports it was a civilian aircraft.
Good Lord! Listening to those recordings makes my blood boil. The cold, remorseless, heartless, almost inhuman voice of the grotesque GRU goons in Russia as they get the details of the mass slaughter from the mercenary killers they have infiltrated into Ukraine is enough to make one hate the Russkies.

If one wants to know how the voice of a soulless, heartless, devil-incarnate serial killer sounds like, one only has to listen to the voice of that GRU goon. One doesn't even have to understand a word of their Russkie language, just hearing that vile voice alone is enough.

These KGB-FSB-GRU Russkies are after all, the real successors of Stalin's bloodthirsty killers who literally starved uncountable millions of poor, God-fearing Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor (genocide of Ukrainians) carried out by the Soviet commies when Ukraine was under commie occupation.

May these vile Russkies get their deserved comeuppance from the heavens sooner or later!

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Strategic friendship between countries are rarely based on common values. In fact, let's stop calling it friendship, and call it strategic relationships. If the enemy says "Hey, wanna buy commodity A from me for a fantastic price?", human will refuse and buy it from else where for higher price. But a country will say "why not" and make the purchase agreement. For example, India buys sugar in huge quantities from Pakistan. And practically everything else from China.
What you've described is exactly true, Samurai annavaru. And that is unfortunately why humans ultimately lose out to governments and the world becomes a worse place to live. Since governments make deals based solely on economic/strategic/other considerations without considering the human one, it gives rogue regimes, tyrannies, dictatorships (and the like) the room they so badly need to thrive in this world. And this not only allows human misery to continue, but also encourages it to spread everywhere.

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When their interests align, and they generally do. When they don't, wars can break out between friendly countries. Example, battle of Copenhagen I and II.
The mark of a civilised country (or indeed a civilised human) is to learn from its past mistakes and avoid the same in the future.

The Western European countries may have been at each other's throats in the last century and before that, but thankfully I don't see this happening again. In fact, they may (or already have) become an inseparable, loving family.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I see that you and I have diametric view on how foreign policy is made. So, let's agree to disagree.
+1. Our positions are never going to meet on this issue, so let's be happy with agreeing to disagree, and prevent this discussion from veering further and further away from the topic.

Last edited by RSR : 18th July 2014 at 13:07.
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Old 18th July 2014, 13:12   #48
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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I hope the airlines keep well away from the conflict-ridden parts of the Middle-East as well. We can't have another tragedy because of a stray Hamas or Israeli missile etc.

Hamas does not have missiles. They have rockets. There is a LOT of difference between the two.

Israel has the IronDome. That would avoid a situation like this as it tracks everything. In fact its the only country with a smart phone app to inform its citizens about incoming rockets.
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Old 18th July 2014, 13:58   #49
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

The last such incident had also occured in Russia I think during the cold war when a Japanese (or someother asian country) plane was shot down by there fighter plane. They are all acts of utter cowardliness. So lets keep the political discussions in check as that is not the purpose of this forum. Bottomline is that no country including ours is totally transparent and clean. Lets just pray for the families of all the victims and hope that such incidents do not take place in the future.
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Old 18th July 2014, 14:14   #50
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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The last such incident had also occured in Russia I think during the cold war when a Japanese (or someother asian country) plane was shot down by there fighter plane..
Nope. You are talking about incident with KAL007 which happened in 1983, where a Korean Air 747 was shot down by a Sukhoi SU15.

But, in 1988, was the IR655 incident. The United States Navy ship (USS Vincennes) shot down an Iran Air Airbus A300, mistaking it for an enemy F-14 Tomcat fighter jet.
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Old 18th July 2014, 14:48   #51
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
I hope the Dutch put pressure on their EU, NATO and American friends to punish the criminals and their backers - such as initiating crippling sanctions and an international boycott of the rogue Russkie regime, in order to strangulate it.
So You already have proof that its FSB and Russia? Didn't they same about snipers in Kiev maidan shooting, later found out that it was in-deed Ukraine itself involved with full knowledge of EU and USA?

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Eventually, Putin and his KGB-FSB cronies thoroughly deserve a fate similar to the Libyan madman Gadaffi and his thugs.
Why only Putin, Isn't Bush and Blair commit similar sins in Iraq and Afghanistan?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
Good Lord! Listening to those recordings makes my blood boil. The cold, remorseless, heartless, almost inhuman voice of the grotesque GRU goons in Russia as they get the details of the mass slaughter from the mercenary killers they have infiltrated into Ukraine is enough to make one hate the Russkies.

If one wants to know how the voice of a soulless, heartless, devil-incarnate serial killer sounds like, one only has to listen to the voice of that GRU goon. One doesn't even have to understand a word of their Russkie language, just hearing that vile voice alone is enough.
So Ukrainian Secret service releases a audio. How authentic the audio is? You seems to assume whatever western media publishing is true.

Last edited by RaguHolla : 18th July 2014 at 14:53.
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Old 18th July 2014, 15:08   #52
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
I'll try to keep this as short as possible, Samurai, in order to keep the thread on-topic.

The USSR/Russia merely pretended/pretends to be a friend of India. Regimes like those can never be true friends of any country, for they only seek to extend their power and influence at any cost. They don't care about the genuine welfare of their friendly countries or their peoples. How can they, when those totalitarian regimes give a damn about the well-being of their own people?

It was Nehru's gigantic historical blunder in aligning with the rogue USSR (and yet pretending to be "non-aligned" along with his other Third World chums) that cursed India to a fate of poverty and misery for decades. The only "benefits" were some utterly shoddy military equipment like those "flying coffins" the Indian Air Force is still saddled with. What else could one expect from regimes that peddle nothing but death, destruction, tyranny and total enslavement? One only needs to have a look at how the Russkies prop up mass-murdering tyrants like Assad, Gadafi etc. to know their true intentions.

I don't mean to say the USA is an angel, either. They can be very bad, too. But it would have been much better for India and Indians to have befriended (in the past) and befriend civilised countries now, rather than rogue regimes.

One simple question. How many Indians migrate to or would dream to live in the USA and its Western allies? How many would do the same for Russia and its rogue allies like Cuba, North Korea, Belarus etc.?

There is a reason why they say, "Show me who your friend is, and I'll tell you who you are!"

And I'll end my off-topic rant with that.
But Bro, Russia has been our all weather friend unlike the US who once tried to attack us during the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, once sanctioned us during the Pokhran blasts in 1999, asked us to stop or reduce our oil from Iran otherwise be sanctioned but at the same time gives billions in aid to Pakistan even when they know that the money is being funneled to fund terrorism in Kashmir.

Russia on the other hand sent its nuclear ships and submarine fleet to protect India from American and British aggression during 1971, Vetoed every resolution passed in the UN then against India, threatened China with war if it attacked India in 1971.

Look at the USA and its double standards, supported Taliban against Soviets and now are against them, Backed Saddam Hussain during the Iran Iraq war and then went against him, Shah Of Iran was a friend and latter did nothing to protect him, infact they were skeptical about letting him come to America too when he was on the run.

Look at Russia and Syria - Russia is standing by Assad and Syria like a rock, America on the other hand is supporting the Rebels in Syria who are Al Qaida and their splinter cells, the same ones they fight in Afghanistan. What Hypocrisy and they call these terrorists in Syria as 'moderate rebels'.

Gaddafi was overturned in Libya, look at the halat of the country now, Iraqi invasion and found no weapons of mass destruction. Of course Saddam was a killer, but look at the country now, its fragments. Asked Pakistan to join the war on terror or be blow to stone age and look at their halat now.

America is good from far, far from good. It's a keep distance country. Look at Russia, always willing to help. The BRICS is going to bring down the American hegemony on this planet.

Don't get me wrong, I love America, infact would love to settle there one day, but their foreign policy is a disaster.
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Old 18th July 2014, 16:12   #53
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

bblost, it's true that Hamas and Israeli rockets/anti-rocket weapons may not bring down a plane flying this high. But some danger is always going to be there, especially for airliners operating from locations in those strife-torn areas e.g. a SpiceJet plane had a close shave in the Kabul rocket attack. It's better for international airlines to cancel/re-route such services than regret it later.



drmohitg,
Quote:
Bottomline is that no country including ours is totally transparent and clean.
Bravo, doc! You've hammered the nail on its head!

Quote:
Lets just pray for the families of all the victims and hope that such incidents do not take place in the future.
Agree 100%. My thoughts and prayers are with the grieving families and friends. No one should have to go through this again.



RaguHolla, I typed a point-by-point answer to your questions. While proof-reading it, I realised this debate was going to go nowhere. I've already decided to steer away from hot political discussions that take this thread off-topic henceforth, so I deleted my draft comment. I would only request you to read this post:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3481346 (Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine)



humyum, please read my reply above and understand why I'm not going to give an elaborate response to your comments.

Only one point - I am not turning this into a USA versus Russia Cold War thread. In my discussion with Samurai, I have already pointed out that the US government is no angel and has its share of crimes to answer for. I have an intense dislike for America's foreign policy since just before WW I, when they ended their isolationist stance.

The USSR and its successor, the mafiocratic Russkie empire, are the devil-incarnates though, having enabled and continuing it enable several other genocidal megalomaniacal bloodthirsty tyrannical regimes like themselves commit similar heinous crimes against humanity, and I will continue to hate them with all my heart.

I believe the supposed "friendship" between Indian governments and those satanic rogue regime is the one that started India's miseries and woes after 1950, and made India's true friends very wary of engaging with us (and who can blame them?) Continuing to sup with the devilish rogue regimes like those will be an immeasurable disaster for India as a country and all Indians in the future, even worse than it was from 1950 - 1991. You are welcome to believe otherwise.

Last edited by RSR : 18th July 2014 at 16:42.
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Old 18th July 2014, 17:04   #54
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Default Re: Malaysian Airliner shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
bblost, it's true that Hamas and Israeli rockets/anti-rocket weapons may not bring down a plane flying this high. But some danger is always going to be there, especially for airliners operating from locations in those strife-torn areas e.g. a SpiceJet plane had a close shave in the Kabul rocket attack. It's better for international airlines to cancel/re-route such services than regret it later.

I don't think you understand the difference between a rocket and a missile.
For a rocket to successfully hit a plane, you would need to be quite close to it.

Forget an Airport, Gaza does not even have a railway station.
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Old 18th July 2014, 18:03   #55
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
Nope. You are talking about incident with KAL007 which happened in 1983, where a Korean Air 747 was shot down by a Sukhoi SU15.

But, in 1988, was the IR655 incident. The United States Navy ship (USS Vincennes) shot down an Iran Air Airbus A300, mistaking it for an enemy F-14 Tomcat fighter jet.
The most recent airline shootdowns were
in 1993:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transai...ner_shootdowns

in 2001:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia...es_Flight_1812


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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
But Bro, Russia has been our all weather friend unlike the US who once tried to attack us during the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, once sanctioned us during the Pokhran blasts in 1999, asked us to stop or reduce our oil from Iran otherwise be sanctioned but at the same time gives billions in aid to Pakistan even when they know that the money is being funneled to fund terrorism in Kashmir.

This so called all weather friend who once had boasted that they will never supply weapons to Pakistan are now in the process of supplying them with Mi-35 attack helicopters.
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Old 18th July 2014, 18:20   #56
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Thumbs down World renowned AIDS researchers slaughtered as MH17 was shot down

The world has lost some of its finest researchers who were traveling on MH17 to a conference in Australia.

Quote:
The organisers of the huge AIDS 2014 conference that's about to get underway in Melbourne fear that as many as a hundred of their delegates may have been on MH-17.

The renowned Dutch AIDS researcher Professor Joep Lange is believed to be among them.

"It may be up to 100. This is a large conference. Tragically there are some very, very significant people who've done a great lot in their lifetime in terms of AIDS research, promotion of dealing with HIV AIDS, both in their own countries and across the world, who have lost their lives in this unspeakable tragedy."
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4049226.htm

The bloodthirsty Russkie mass-murderers! They have butchered some of humankind's finest brains (that could have found a cure for a hitherto incurable disease) in their insatiable, demonic, murderous land grabbing quest! Wasn't it Stalin who (in)famously stated, "We can always shoot scientists"? He's got a very worthy carbon copy in Putin now.

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
I don't think you understand the difference between a rocket and a missile.
bblost, I'm no rocket scientist, but I do understand the difference between Hamas' wildly inaccurate little home made rockets put together in a garage and accurate long range missiles manufactured with the help of advanced technology.

I just meant to say I wanted international airlines to stay safe by avoiding that airspace completely. Why put the passengers into the midst (or above) a conflict where the least expected things can happen?

In this image from flightradar, the planes can be seen to be completely avoiding Syrian airspace, and understandably so:

Name:  image.jpg
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It would be better for them to avoid Israeli airspace (including the one above Gaza, which Israel happens to control) as well.

Last edited by RSR : 18th July 2014 at 18:48.
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Old 18th July 2014, 18:45   #57
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Default Re: World renowned AIDS researchers slaughtered as MH17 was shot down

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
bblost, I'm no rocket scientist, but I do understand the difference between Hamas' wildly inaccurate little home made rockets put together in a garage and accurate long range missiles manufactured with the help of advanced technology.

I just meant to say I wanted international airlines to stay safe by avoiding that airspace completely. Why put the passengers into the midst (or above) a conflict where the least expected things can happen?

In this image from flightradar, the planes can be seen to be completely avoiding Syrian airspace, and understandably so:

Attachment 1263206

It would be better for them to avoid Israeli airspace (including the one above Gaza, which Israel happens to control) as well.

Hamas used to use homemade rockets with sugar based fuel. But now they use either Iranian or Syrian rockets. The Syrian rockets are based on a Chinese design.

Despite the military technology behind these rockets, they don't pose a threat to aircraft at 30000 feet.
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:12   #58
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Default Re: World renowned AIDS researchers slaughtered as MH17 was shot down

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
Hamas used to use homemade rockets with sugar based fuel. But now they use either Iranian or Syrian rockets. The Syrian rockets are based on a Chinese design.

Despite the military technology behind these rockets, they don't pose a threat to aircraft at 30000 feet.
Thank you for that information, bblost.

Dear All,

I'm sorry if any one of you felt offended by my use of some harsh words against certain regimes and the persons who run them, though I was careful in avoiding foul language. I apologise if my outbursts on this issue have been excessive. This one will be my last post on this thread.

May the grieving families and friends of those who were killed have the courage to overcome this irreparable loss. May the souls of all those who perished rest in peace.

Amen!
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:19   #59
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

RSR,

The Gaza rockets are nowhere near the Buk missile system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket - i can't search but its service ceiling must be much lesser than the 15km reported for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_mis...tem#Comparison which engages at 4.5 mach!

The syrian war has costed airlines many tens or even hundreds of millions in dollars due to diversions. Every minute in the air costs airlines tens of thousands of dollars. They need a solid assessment before doing that. I guess the airlines were caught napping by the level of escalation in violence in Ukraine.

The air transportation world will never really be the same. Terrorists have never had access to such weaponry.
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:59   #60
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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This so called all weather friend who once had boasted that they will never supply weapons to Pakistan are now in the process of supplying them with Mi-35 attack helicopters.
Well haven't we started buying stuff from America and Israel too ? When America leaves Afghanistan in 2014, Pakistan's importance in Afg would be super high, during those times, Russia would rather have a Pakistan and its scrooges in Afghanistan who are Russia friendly giving it a leverage in post american withdrawal Afghanistan since that country is going to explode with terrorism once the American's leave. Even when they are there right now, they can't control anything, imagine what happens when they leave.

India has been pumping billions in Afghanistan and I can't fathom what will happen to India in Afghanistan after America leaves. That country looks so doomed.
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