Go Back   Team-BHP > Around the Corner > Shifting gears


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th July 2014, 13:58   #76
BHPian
 
searchingheaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: KDCA-KDFW-VOBL
Posts: 320
Thanked: 1,346 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Almost all airlines the world over, buy aircraft in sets. Hence, if MAS bought 15 aircraft, the odds of two aircraft having only one letter different is 100%.
Of course I know that. I implied that the odds of two aircraft from the same company(with same make & model) & slightly different reg. nos being involved in 2 separate incidents(both under mysterious circumstances) like those are a million to one. For e.g where MH-370 was converted to Mh-17. Sorry if my wording was incorrect/misinterpreted.

Quote:
EDIT: regarding Ukranian ATC asking MH17 to fly 2000 ft below? It doesn't matter one bit. Buk can engage right upto 14km, or 42000 ft or so. The aircraft could've been at FL390 and result would've been exactly the same.
Just FYI, The BUK can engage upto 78000 ft and not just 42000. It's not a matter of what altitude the BUK could engage. The question is why did the ATC gave an altitude with a vertical separation of 1000 ft from the no-fly ceiling knowing about the NOTAM. If the aircraft was at FL390, it would have been a clear case of targeting the MH-17 deliberately. At FL330, the perpetrators might plead that it was a mistake since the ceiling was just 1000 ft above at FL320(Just like with IA 655, KAL007, SA1812).
searchingheaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2014, 17:47   #77
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,918
Thanked: 5,779 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Just FYI, The BUK can engage upto 78000 ft and not just 42000. It's not a matter of what altitude the BUK could engage. The question is why did the ATC gave an altitude with a vertical separation of 1000 ft from the no-fly ceiling knowing about the NOTAM. If the aircraft was at FL390, it would have been a clear case of targeting the MH-17 deliberately. At FL330, the perpetrators might plead that it was a mistake since the ceiling was just 1000 ft above at FL320(Just like with IA 655, KAL007, SA1812).
Very simple: the NOTAM restricts a certain stretch of airspace. In this case up to FL320 or 32000. Anything above is available, no restriction. Everything above is considered "normal airspace, i.e. no risks. There is no reason to have a higher separation. FL330 was fine as it was above FL320 If that was not the case, the altitude in the NOTAM would have been higher!

NOTAMs are part of normal operation in aviation. At any given moment of time there are hundreds if not thousand of NOTAMs in effect. NOTAM don't necessarily tell you why the restrictions are in place, only what the restrictions are, i.e. geographical area, altitude, date and time.

Here's what I learned from a professional commercial pilot friend of mine:

Quote:
Eurocontrol validated the route. The Ukraine is managed by Eurocontrol as far as airspace structure goes.

When I heard of the accident, I ran a test plan in my flight planning system at work, and it came back with essentially the same routing. Had we had had a flight in the same city pair, if that route had been returned as the most optimum track, I would have had no reason not to use it. The A1493/14 NOTAM that Avherald has is the key - FL320 and below was no go (there was another notam for the same airway segments at FL260 and below), 330 and higher was open for business. My system at work had the same NOTAM.
Even so, certain carriers, for instance KLM had decided several weeks ago to fly around the area. Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean you can be more conscious. I do think Malaysian airway will come under attack why it choose to fly this route, even though technically it was fine. Still, makes for a very poor excuse if other carriers do fly around it. In this particular case KLM was actually code sharing this route. It is a good example how ridiculous this whole idea of code sharing is. So I could have booked this flight with KLM, ended up on the Malaysian plane and crashed, whereas KLM routes their own planes around this area! Look on the carries websites how they plug code sharing to the punters; Their code share partners offer the same service, safety standards etc. NO they don't!


As usual, the most factual data collected here: http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0 It even has the NOTAMs.

There could well be another reason that this plane was at FL330. Pilots of commercial jet engines like to fly as high as possible, because it gives them better fuel efficiency. When a wide body plane such as the 777 takes off with a (near) full compliment of passengers, cargo and fuel it is to heavy to reach it's maximum cruising altitude. So they start cruising at say FL290. After a while they have burned sufficient fuel of to lower the the plane's weight and to climb to a higher altitude. In most parts of the world these so called step climbs are done in increments of 4000 feet. Theoretically you should be on a very shallow constant climb to get the most optimum fuel burn, but ATC can't cope with that, so you do it in steps of 4000 feet. If you ever find yourself on a long haul route you will notice this; every few hours the engines will spool up for a few minutes as the aircraft climbs to its next cruising altitude.

ATC needs to clear you for every step climb. Depending on their route this flight plan would have been about 5500 nautical miles. It crashed before it was 1/3 of the way, so it would not have had a chance to burn of much fuel. I would need to look it up, because 5500 is well below max range for a 777, so they were probably not carrying max fuel. So they might have been able to go a bit higher, but not much. As I said, these pilots like to get as high as their weight allows them unless the jet stream are unfavorable, or ATC won't let them. FL330 was a safe altitude as far the aviation planning systems were concerned.

For those of a morbid disposition the first video's of the mutilated bodies of the crash victims are hitting Facebook and Youtube. (e.g. vicenews). I'm a big fan of free speech and all, but you do wonder if this is necessary. Can you imagine if you have families or friends on that flight and you find them back on such a video. It's probably all legal, but again that doesn't mean you have to put it out there. At the bare minimum it's very poor taste to put it up on the internet.

Although I don't (think so far) I really know any Dutch persons on the flight, I sort of have met one of them. There was a lady who ran a famous restaurant in Rotterdam. I've been there several times with my family. She used to come round all the tables to check that everything was in order and everybody was enjoying their food. Very sad.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 19th July 2014 at 18:03.
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2014, 19:30   #78
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 445
Thanked: 73 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
Again all i am hearing on this thread is diatribe without an iota of proof or credible sources.

Don Quixote charging at the windmills!!
Proof,you want proof??What proof,lets say, have you seen on the WMD's in Iraq??They went in and killed lives which would pale in comparison to what was happening before.

....and hindsight and killing the dog that bites the hands,seriously???Are you saying that the US is unaware right now that its possibly feeding the biggest dog that could turn around to bite its posterior - the Paki's??
jraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2014, 19:35   #79
BHPian
 
searchingheaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: KDCA-KDFW-VOBL
Posts: 320
Thanked: 1,346 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Quote:
NOTAMs are part of normal operation in aviation.Even so, certain carriers, for instance KLM had decided several weeks ago to fly around the area.
Yes, of course, I agree with you Sir. But what i am saying is that while it was technically correct, practically it wasn't a very smart decision on part of the ATC. At 12:00 UTC, they were at FL330. From 12:00 UTC to 13:00 UTC, the ATC could've directed them to a higher altitude.

Quote:
As usual, the most factual data collected here: http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0It even has the NOTAMs.
Thats where i got the NOTAM from. Agree with you on the ATC Climb part.
Quote:
There was a lady who ran a famous restaurant in Rotterdam. I've been there several times with my family. She used to come round all the tables to check that everything was in order and everybody was enjoying their food. Very sad.
You're talking about Jenny, i guess. Link to FB Profile.
searchingheaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2014, 07:59   #80
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,918
Thanked: 5,779 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
You're talking about Jenny, i guess. Link to FB Profile.
Yes, I am.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2014, 15:51   #81
BHPian
 
Hayek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bombay
Posts: 702
Thanked: 1,593 Times
Default

Amazes me that people try to justify the inexcusable by saying that others are equally bad.

Russia started this war, still is in illegal occupation of Crimea, and has been arming rogues with sophisticated weapons as well as support from its own under cover troops to destabilise and seize territory from a neighbour, whose only offence was desiring to establish close economic links with the EU. Russian supported terrorists blow up a civilian airliner using a sophisticated weapon. And we have posts talking about the US as being bad.

Agree with Samurai that India and Russia HAD common interests, once upon a long ago. But today, Russia is led by an insane rogue, who needs to be classed with other madmen like Hitler, Stalin and Mao as one of the most dangerous and evil humans to have lived in recent times. Russia has enormous amounts of land (1/50th of the world's population living on 1/6th of the world's land), but Putin still thinks like a 19th century emperor that his country's prestige depends on acquiring more land, and is happy to transcend all international norms to fulfil this quest (think Abkhazia, Crimea and now Eastern Ukraine). A Russian friend of mine pointed this out 3-4 years ago, and I must say I under-estimated how dangerous this man is.

Wonder if the deaths of 150+ white Europeans will be enough to induce the West to ostracise Putin, or whether the commercial interests of Exxon, BP, Shell et al will be put upfront once again and all he will get is a slap on the wrists (or even worse, an abject surrender by forcing Ukraine to cede its Russian speaking areas to the new Czar).
Hayek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2014, 20:55   #82
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Chennai
Posts: 86
Thanked: 91 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Amazes me that people try to justify the inexcusable by saying that others are equally bad.
It is probably OT but Crimea was always a part of Russia. It was given to Ukraine during the Soviet Union but remains firmly Russian in composition. I do not want to discuss on who is bad or good since such a terms does not exist in Geo-politics since USA does support Rebels in Syria who are supposedly good while rebels in Ukraine are bad. Putin is the only leader who challenges USA for supremacy. Anyways it is probably OT to this thread and no country made up of saints.

Regarding shooting down of the Aircraft , one things which puzzles me is that the Altitude information should have rang alarm bells for the men manning the SAM's. I agree that the Buk might not have been integrated ATC and air defence network but still it is difficult to comprehend.

For example the An-24 has a normal usable altitude of 21,000 feet. It could have never flown either this fast or this high. Maybe they had the Buk-M1 type with the Rotating Radome instead of the modern M3 versions with the modified NIIP bars Phased Array radar based system still each Buk TELAR has a combination of acquisition and engagement Radars which would have given both Altitude and speed information.

Hence I find it hard to believe the picture that the rebels , especially the SAM operators were some kind of trigger happy vodka drinking Russians who shoot down things which flies over them. Probably they might have had Intel that either a Su-27 or a Il-76 was flying over the airspace which might been mistaken for the MH-17. In that case Ukraine is as much to blame since they were using a Civilian planes as shield.

Either case, may their souls RIP.

Last edited by Aceman82 : 20th July 2014 at 20:57.
Aceman82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 08:50   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,918
Thanked: 5,779 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Yes, of course, I agree with you Sir. But what i am saying is that while it was technically correct, practically it wasn't a very smart decision on part of the ATC. At 12:00 UTC, they were at FL330. From 12:00 UTC to 13:00 UTC, the ATC could've directed them to a higher altitude.
Read my post carefully, I dont think you understand how this works at all.
You can fault the authorities for having a NOTAM in place that allowed planes to overfly this above FL320. You can not fault ATC for adhering to that NOTAM. That's just how it works. There was no reason to direct them to a higher altitude. The only reason to direct them to a higher altitude was if the NOTAM had mentioned a higher altitude.

ATC doesn't question whether the NOTAM is valid and or correct. It has to assume it is valid and correct and subsequently ATC implements it accordingly. The guy on the ground working the radio and talking to the pilots of multiple planes, possibly on multiple frequencies, simply doesnt have the time, nor the skill or the resources to do that. There are other people that do that, they are the ones that produce the NOTAMs.

There are probably a lot of people who's judgement can be questioned on what happened, or rather what could have been done to prevent it. But not the ATC on duty. Did what he/she was supposed to be doing.

You could question Malaysian airlines for allowing their aircraft to overfly this area. Their code sharing partner KLM had stopped overflying this area several weeks ago. You can even question the captain of this plane as it is ultemately his/her decision. You can question the people handing out the NOTAM etc. etc. But, in my opinion, untill I see or hear differently, there was no information known to the ATC on duty then this particular NOTAM to which they adhered, routing planes across this particular air space above
FL320

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 10:37   #84
BHPian
 
pratyush6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: RNC - BLR
Posts: 471
Thanked: 498 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Some of the posts have absolutely amazed me here. How stupid can one be for blaming USA for every wrong that occurs in this world? They are no saints but as far as freedom goes, USA is far ahead of Russia.

It is very clear who has done it, you only need some concrete proof, which is very unlikely since the area and the debris is all under the possession of the rebels, who have been propped up by Russia.

People who have committed this need to be punished no matter what. However i doubt if anyone is good enough to standup to the madman named Putin. Except economic sanctions, I do not expect much.

This is such a sad state of the world, where anything can be finished off by the whims and fancies of a strongman. My heart goes to the people who lost their near ones. May their souls RIP.
pratyush6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 11:18   #85
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 604
Thanked: 186 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Obviously, a Russian proxy fighter pulled the trigger on the SAM that bought down MH17 - no doubt. Also there is no doubt Putin isn't going to own up to this. No way. Just like how Pervez Musharaff never owned up to Kargil. Masters who control non-state actors never do something that silly. Dont expect it.

Now the question to be asked is - how did a well trained Russian SAM operator (there is no way a medium-range SAM's trigger will be in the hands of a front-line rag-tag 'rebel') mistake a passenger jet for a military aircraft. That seems warfare-101 FAIL to me. Russians are not known to make such mistakes. So, it looks like the Russians were 'coaxed' into a mistake by "Uncle SAM" (pun deliberately intended).

Look at the players:
- major DUTCH casuality - a nation guaranteed not to make too much noise against USA.
- Malaysian asset destroyed - "Malaysia? where on earth is that, dude" - most Yankees ask.
- Incident site - near to where it will hurt Putin the most.

Did non-state actor (CIA, in this case) leak deliberately incorrect INTEL to the Rebels (via convenient conduits) and offer MH17 as the proverbial sarcrifical lamb to turn the heat on Putin?

Uncle SAM (pun, again, ya...) is known to have blood of innocents on his hands on many previous occassions.

Last edited by WindRide : 21st July 2014 at 11:40.
WindRide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 11:19   #86
Senior - BHPian
 
alpha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: P00NA
Posts: 1,613
Thanked: 949 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
But today, Russia is led by an insane rogue, who needs to be classed with other madmen like Hitler, Stalin and Mao as one of the most dangerous and evil humans to have lived in recent times. Russia has enormous amounts of land (1/50th of the world's population living on 1/6th of the world's land), but Putin still thinks like a 19th century emperor that his country's prestige depends on acquiring more land, and is happy to transcend all international norms to fulfil this quest (think Abkhazia, Crimea and now Eastern Ukraine). A Russian friend of mine pointed this out 3-4 years ago, and I must say I under-estimated how dangerous this man is.

Wonder if the deaths of 150+ white Europeans will be enough to induce the West to ostracise Putin, or whether the commercial interests of Exxon, BP, Shell et al will be put upfront once again and all he will get is a slap on the wrists (or even worse, an abject surrender by forcing Ukraine to cede its Russian speaking areas to the new Czar).
I think we all know the outcome.
Putin is an ambitious KGB guy. I don't believe he will stop at any length.
Also he know the power of money and how everyone can be silenced (like the bold line of your post above).

Russia is a mineral giant. And of course a territory giant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post
Regarding shooting down of the Aircraft , one things which puzzles me is that the Altitude information should have rang alarm bells for the men manning the SAM's. I agree that the Buk might not have been integrated ATC and air defence network but still it is difficult to comprehend.

Hence I find it hard to believe the picture that the rebels , especially the SAM operators were some kind of trigger happy vodka drinking Russians who shoot down things which flies over them. Probably they might have had Intel that either a Su-27 or a Il-76 was flying over the airspace which might been mistaken for the MH-17. In that case Ukraine is as much to blame since they were using a Civilian planes as shield.

Either case, may their souls RIP.
You need to check on how even regular army trains its guys.
The number 1 point which is drilled down is YOU NEVER QUESTION THE ORDERS FROM ABOVE.
The point 2 is whatever action you take (as a result of this order from above) benefits your nation/countrymen/cause, hence DO NOT HESITATE.

In fact a vodka gulping guy perhaps may have bouts of conscience which is absolutely not allowed in the line of duty.

Last edited by alpha1 : 21st July 2014 at 11:21.
alpha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 11:22   #87
Team-BHP Support
 
Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: B'lore-Manipal
Posts: 22,043
Thanked: 13,496 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by pratyush6 View Post
Some of the posts have absolutely amazed me here. How stupid can one be for blaming USA for every wrong that occurs in this world? They are no saints but as far as freedom goes, USA is far ahead of Russia.
It is not that we hate USA. I lived in USA for nearly a decade and loved that country. I still love it, I considered New Jersey my home away from India. But that doesn't mean I overlook when US government does nasty things around the world. I don't know why you bring freedom into the equation. We are not talking freedom within USA or Russia.

It is not just us, even US political commentators are fed up with it. America's #1 political comedian Bill Maher has this to say:

Since the show is on HBO, there are some mild profanity in couple places. If you find even mild profanity offensive, kindly refrain from clicking on the video.



Samurai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 15:24   #88
BHPian
 
aneezan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 408
Thanked: 181 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Its the separatists. Gifted weapons from Russia
They made a post too saying they shot down AN-26 and a SU, but I think they accidentally shot this down.
Now they are going and deleting all posts about BUK and having anti aircraft capability from their site. But they do not realize, that the internet never forgets
Attachment 1263063

Translation
We warned them not to fly in our sky. The birdie fell behind the earth dump, didn't affect inhabited areas. Peaceful civilians were not harmed
I wonder why anyone is ruthlessly not going after this person/group. Or if they are, they are not telling.
Sad state of affairs, everyone trying to brush things under the carpet. A full blown crime is becoming a political plaything, as usual.

Coming to air-travel itself, now I know that danger can come from anywhere, even from the ground far below.
aneezan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 15:38   #89
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,466
Thanked: 692 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

I saw Mr. Obama's speech last week. Every word he uttered of a country helping terrorists who are violating the sovereignty of another country, claiming innocent lives etc etc was so hypocritical when you consider our Country's problems with people helped by U.S indirectly (or not rebuked for U.S's own interests).

Its true of many other countries as well. That said not sure how long Putin will be the dictator he is of Russia and what other awful things he is going to do.
srishiva is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2014, 15:43   #90
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,852
Thanked: 15,407 Times
Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Read my post carefully, I dont think you understand how this works at all.
Jeroen, quoting you since you may be aware of this thing.
When the Russians shot down airliner, USA made GPS open for civilians, so that aircraft do not stray off the intended flight path.

Now, when USA carrier Vincennes shot down iran air flight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vin...ht_655_tragedy

using a SAM, I think most modern SAM systems adapted. Now SAM high altitude systems do not lock onto aircraft if there is a civilian transponder in the aircraft. Civilian protection in BUK should be manually disengaged by someone.

Now since BUK actually shot this down, it means, somebody deliberately removed this safety lock.

This takes it from "Oops" to "willful attack".

Is this true. Do the BUK systems and all major SAM system have this civilian safety lock to avoid the scenario which happened with Iran Air?

Last edited by tsk1979 : 21st July 2014 at 15:45.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 (MH370) goes missing tharian Shifting gears 395 23rd April 2017 09:55
Chevy Cruze missile fired in a Team of BHPians sidindica The Indian Car Scene 196 6th October 2009 11:21
320km/h missile from TRiumph! BunnyPunia Superbikes & Imports 9 5th September 2007 12:11
New Member from Ukraine helijoe Introduce yourself 7 5th May 2007 21:54
Kingfisher Airlines & Toyota F1 nikhil3456 Shifting gears 15 24th February 2007 01:58


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:10.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks