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Old 21st July 2014, 16:18   #91
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post

Is this true. Do the BUK systems and all major SAM system have this civilian safety lock to avoid the scenario which happened with Iran Air?
I don't mean to be rude by coming in between your discussions, but I think the BUK is equipped with something called IFF (Identification Friend or Foe). It enables military and national interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator.
From the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identif..._friend_or_foe

If the IFF is truly operational, it would possibly notify the user that the locked target is a harmless object. Jeroen and others can probably put more light into this.
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Old 21st July 2014, 20:44   #92
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Jeroen, quoting you since you may be aware of this thing.
When the Russians shot down airliner, USA made GPS open for civilians, so that aircraft do not stray off the intended flight path.

Now, when USA carrier Vincennes shot down iran air flight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vin...ht_655_tragedy

using a SAM, I think most modern SAM systems adapted. Now SAM high altitude systems do not lock onto aircraft if there is a civilian transponder in the aircraft. Civilian protection in BUK should be manually disengaged by someone.

Now since BUK actually shot this down, it means, somebody deliberately removed this safety lock.

This takes it from "Oops" to "willful attack".

Is this true. Do the BUK systems and all major SAM system have this civilian safety lock to avoid the scenario which happened with Iran Air?

Yes, the so called Korean Airlines incident, flight 007. Happened in 1983 and based upon this accident then US President Reagan issued a directive making GPS available for civilian use, free of charge. It still needed a lot of development at the time, but it did happen and it has become more accurate for civilian use over the years as well.

All commercial airliners have so-called transponders. They come in different versions, but on commercial airliners it will be at least a mode-C transponder. It means when interrogated by secondary radar it will broadcast a code (assigned by ATC and manually entered by the crew) and the (pressure) altitude.

I am not really familiar with weapon system. I'm very much interested in military planes, but more in the design, production and operation of the plane itself, rather then it's offensive or defensive systems.

So I might be wrong, but to me it doesn't make sense to have an automatic friend or foe lock on a weapon system. Let me explain; if you are flying a (spy) plane and you want to enter into a certain airspace you don't belong or are not supposed to be, how to go about it. Well, you could try to remain undetected (lots of stealth technology required) or you pretend to be a friend.

So, I have never understand how squawking a certain code makes you friend or foe. Mind you, military transponders and civilian transponders work differently and have very clearly distinguishable signals. But then again, anybody can pick up a civilian transponder and install it in a plane. You would have to file a flight plan and get a squak code from ATC, but just because you are in the civilian system doesn't mean you have to be a friend perse.

So, deciding friend of foe, I would think, needs to be done by the operator, i.e. requires human intervention, not a computer.

But again, I'm no expert so I leave it to the more military/weapon specialist on the forum to comment.

Jeroen
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Old 21st July 2014, 20:49   #93
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
I don't mean to be rude by coming in between your discussions, but I think the BUK is equipped with something called IFF (Identification Friend or Foe). It enables military and national interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator.
From the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identif..._friend_or_foe

If the IFF is truly operational, it would possibly notify the user that the locked target is a harmless object. Jeroen and others can probably put more light into this.
No. IFF does not work like this. It is basically only for Military aircrafts which tells if you one of us (or) not. Civilian aircraft's even if equipped by IFF can only say that the aircraft is not a friend but has not way of saying it is not an enemy. For example all Military aircraft bought by India uses a propitiatory BEL made IFF system. It has no way of knowing if the plane flying over head is Civilian or Military.

Please note that IFF is not be confused with a Transponder which id's themselves to ATC but only Kiev ATC would have known the Transponder codes not the rebels who even if they managed to read the transponder codes which they cannot would not have bee n able to know what aircraft was flying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Jeroen, quoting you since you may be aware of this thing.
When the Russians shot down airliner, USA made GPS open for civilians, so that aircraft do not stray off the intended flight path.

Now, when USA carrier Vincennes shot down iran air flight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vin...ht_655_tragedy

using a SAM, I think most modern SAM systems adapted. Now SAM high altitude systems do not lock onto aircraft if there is a civilian transponder in the aircraft. Civilian protection in BUK should be manually disengaged by someone.

Now since BUK actually shot this down, it means, somebody deliberately removed this safety lock.

This takes it from "Oops" to "willful attack".

Is this true. Do the BUK systems and all major SAM system have this civilian safety lock to avoid the scenario which happened with Iran Air?
There is no safety lock in the Buk or any SAM's for that matter except IFF's which can also be overridden, especially not in the M1 model which made in 1970's model with the Drum type Engagement Radar and not the Phased array ones like the modern day Buk's.

The below link is an excellent article on the Buk.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html

Anyway still the Altitude and speed should have rung some alarm bells and hence I believe that some Su-27 or IL-76 might have flown in the airspace and the rebels might have targeted ML-17 thinking it was one of those.

There is also a SAM simulator which would give an idea of SAM's but it does not have the Buk simulated.

Edit:

Actually the Ageis equipped guided curizers with the SM-1MR is acutally much more advanced than the Buk. The SM series missiles and AN/SPY-1 PESA Radars are from another universe when compared Buk TELAR's.

Last edited by Aceman82 : 21st July 2014 at 20:57.
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Old 21st July 2014, 21:20   #94
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post
Please note that IFF is not be confused with a Transponder which id's themselves to ATC but only Kiev ATC would have known the Transponder codes not the rebels who even if they managed to read the transponder codes which they cannot would not have bee n able to know what aircraft was flying.
.
Anybody with an internet connection can find out the transponder code on just about all aircraft. Check out a site such as Flight Radar:

http://www.flightradar24.com

It will allow you to track a plane in (near) real time, showing flight plan, position, speed, track, vertical speed, mode S and Squak Code.

Very useful

Jeroen
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Old 21st July 2014, 21:53   #95
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Anybody with an internet connection can find out the transponder code on just about all aircraft. Check out a site such as Flight Radar:

http://www.flightradar24.com

It will allow you to track a plane in (near) real time, showing flight plan, position, speed, track, vertical speed, mode S and Squak Code.

Very useful

Jeroen
Agreed but it was rebels fighting a war we are taking about here. A person sitting inside a Buk Telar would have hardly had the time or inclination to use a mobile internet connection or a mobile app to see flights passing overheard more so since a Su-25 was shot a few days ago and an An-26 one week ago.

Even if someone did use the app, they would have assumed that it was the Ukranians spoofing a military aircraft as a civilian one. Another plausible explanation would be that there were some Su-27 or IL-76 passing over head and the Buk might have tired to engage that. The actual truth would probably never be known since both the Buk TELAR and the operator would have long since disappeared. End of the day one more casualty in the cloud of war.
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Old 28th July 2014, 22:38   #96
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

on a side note, context for those who are worried about the "safety" of air travel:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ath-risk-guide

/50 flights this year already .. and counting!
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Old 9th September 2014, 23:02   #97
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Default Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 shot down by a missile in Ukraine

Today the Dutch authorities published their first, preliminary, report on this incident:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads...nteractief.pdf

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