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Old 28th December 2014, 13:08   #1
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Default Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Java seas strike again or is it flights out of Malaysia are targeted? Conspiracy theories?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...c-control.html
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Old 28th December 2014, 13:33   #2
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

News says Air Asia aircraft went up to 50,000ft! Didn't know a commercial passenger aircraft goes up that height. ):
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Old 28th December 2014, 14:01   #3
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Have been following this from morning since I woke up. Another tragic incident and at the same time raises doubts, questions and the expected conspiracy theories. I guess the media is mistaken regarding the 50000ft thingy. The fact is that thunderstorms were present uptil FL500 which cant be avoided by a flight since it cant fly above it. This is what I saw on either BBC or CNN which I don't remember. Guess someone mistook it as flight going to that level which is not easy, if not possible.

Hope they don't repeat another MH370 story and find the aircraft or whatever is left of it. This is the third incident in the region in the last year. And second weather related incident in that region this year alone.

For accurate news refer to http://avherald.com/h?article=47f6abc7&opt=1

Last edited by audioholic : 28th December 2014 at 14:15.
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Old 28th December 2014, 14:08   #4
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

These guys seem to be reporting accurate. No unnecessary speculation or those made-up theories.

ABC News

Its a live feed; gets updated regularly.
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Old 28th December 2014, 17:53   #5
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I believe they have called off the search and rescue today as it has become dark there. The max altitude of an Airbus 320 is 39000ft if I recall it correctly.
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Old 28th December 2014, 19:31   #6
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

I am grieved at the loss of flight but what is perplexing is that this is one incident too many. I though modern aircraft were built to withstand severest of weathers and had capable on board instrumentation.

What lends it a sinister over tone is switching off of locator beacons and transponders.
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Old 28th December 2014, 19:52   #7
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

So we are in that century when we can find a person and even an Iphone in any part of the world, but a plane with hundreds of people can disappear?

Time to have pilot F-22's as escorts I guess.

Question to the experts: Why is there an option to disable all the transponders/beacons/communication equipment mid flight? Is it something that can be done manually or does it need to be done via jammers or something similar?

Why cant there always be some sort of fail proof backup?

After MH370, all plane incidents look like conspiracies.
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Old 28th December 2014, 19:56   #8
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

At least in today's case, the prevailed weather condition has dampened the conspiracy theories.
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Old 28th December 2014, 20:00   #9
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Third hit on a Malaysian aircraft. Seems that the plane was running into a thunderstorm. Fingers crossed, but I do not see much hope, unless it landed somewhere.
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Old 28th December 2014, 20:41   #10
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Default re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
What lends it a sinister over tone is switching off of locator beacons and transponders.
In this case in contrast to MH370, the transponders didnt look like they were switched off. If fears come true and the plane indeed crashed, then its probable that the power was lost. Secondly, the effectiveness of radar lessens as height reduces hence once it starts dropping down, radars may not be able to track an object since they are based on line of sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akshaymahajan View Post
So we are in that century when we can find a person and even an Iphone in any part of the world, but a plane with hundreds of people can disappear?
If you can find an Iphone in the Java sea, finding the aircraft will be lot easier.

Looks like the pilots started an ascent, and in that process they forgot to ensure airspeed since their mind was focussed on getting away from the bad weather. This would have led to a stall. Just guessing from what the radar showed, a very slow speed during climb.

Last edited by audioholic : 28th December 2014 at 20:44.
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Old 5th February 2015, 10:32   #11
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Default Re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

What I read from other friends reg Air Asia Indonesia 8501 etc
http://www.availableaircraft.co.uk/I..._-_Issue_1.pdf

Possibly what happened in Taiwan.

and in the air indonesia case

http://www.pprune.org/8853717-post3069.html

"pilots apparently familiar with the A320 suggesting that a combination of thrust moment, auto fly to G, mode of readouts, lack of pilot SS feedback, narrow speed margin, warning chaos, and possible rapidity of AOA change in relatively rare turbulence, not to mention pilot error (however small) and confusion over what the control system is thinking could ALL have contributed to two accidents where a stall all the way from altitude to impact occurred. There are more recently some hints (and counter opinion) that, once stalled, the A320 control system might actually be attempting to hold the plane in a stall."
(from a friend)
For a concerned layman like me there are possibly many pilots who are the equivalent of programmers who cannot fathom pointers because all they get taught is java. Sadly not knowing how to fly is a lot scarier ! They rely on auto-modes, because that is SOP, and when thrown into a situation where they have to fly, have no knowledge, training or experience to recover.

Scary as hell i say - i'm happy i only fly twice in six weeks now and not the 80 odd annual flights I took for the last two and a half year.

AF447 - the pilots whose errors crashed the plane had 9000+ hours between them! Yet they didn't recognize the stall as it developed!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...er-struck.html

and a recent near-miss in Australia:
http://avherald.com/h?article=47196b94
Quote:
On Jun 17th 2014 the ATSB released their final bulletin releasing the safety message:

This incident provides a reminder to pilots of all aircraft types regarding the potential for an aerodynamic stall. The stall occurs at a critical angle of attack. The airspeed associated with the stall angle of attack varies depending on the aircraft weight and load factor (such as angle of bank), and the configuration of flaps, slats and spoilers.

The Golden Rules for Pilots article in Safety First - The Airbus Safety Magazine, Issue 15, January 2013, states that on highly automated and integrated aircraft, several levels of automation are available to perform a given task; and the ‘appropriate’ level of automation depends on the situation and task. It advises flight crew to understand the implication of the intended level of automation. Being able to anticipate the reaction of the automated response is important in deciding whether to proceed to rule 4 and change the level of automation.

In this incident, understanding the automated response to a potential overspeed situation may have given the first officer more time to analyse and resolve the situation. Disconnecting the autopilot and autothrust led to a rapid increase in workload and the aircraft changing from a potential overspeed to a slow speed state.

Here's what the timely arrival of the captain does:

The aircraft began to descend and the airspeed dropped to below the lowest speed that autothrust would permit to select. The first officer applied nose up commands in order to level at FL380 and moved the thrust levers back close to but not to idle position, which reduced the maximum thrust available from the engines. The nose up inputs increased the angle of attack beyond the alpha floor, the alpha floor protection activated, the speed brakes were automatically retracted and the TOGA lock was activated.

At that time the captain returned to the cockpit, scanned the primary instruments, noticed the aircraft pitch at 0 degrees, the speed in the yellow band about half way between stall and lowest selectable speed, the speed trend accelerating and the aircraft at FL365. There were no indications of any other aircraft in the vicinity that could have been affected by the altitude busts, the captain spotted the Thrust Lock indication. The captain took control of the aircraft, double clicked the autothrust disconnect button to disengage the thrust lock and moved the thrust levers to the climb detent, noticed the speed brake lever was extended and moved it to the retracted position, set a pitch attitude of about +5 to +7 degrees corresponding to a climb of 700-1000 fpm.

ATC noticed the aircraft was now below FL380 and queried to confirm the altitude again, the first officer radioed they were now climbing to FL380, operations were normal.

The captain, cognisant of a gentle recovery to avoid a secondary flight envelope event, levelled the aircraft at FL380 and re-engaged automation.

Last edited by phamilyman : 5th February 2015 at 10:40.
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Old 5th February 2015, 12:52   #12
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Default Re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Scary....automation is possible as long as all scenarios are understood and pre-programmed.

Travelling so I have not fathomed out the details yet about yesterday's crash. Any idea what aircraft type was involved?
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Old 7th February 2015, 13:53   #13
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Default Re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Scary....automation is possible as long as all scenarios are understood and pre-programmed.

Travelling so I have not fathomed out the details yet about yesterday's crash. Any idea what aircraft type was involved?
ATR72-600, a pretty common version of what Indian operators use for <500km flights.
http://jansaviation.com/news.php?art...-transasia-235
Quote:

The black boxes from TransAsia Airways flight 235 have been recovered and analyzed, and the Aviation Safety Council is releasing some new information.

Just over half a minute into the flight, one of the engines began to idle. Just as it reached 1,200 feet, the right engine went out.

However, the pilots shut down the left engine, instead of the right. They later tried to restart both engines, but the plane crashed.

There were five stall warnings before the ATR-72 landed in the Keelung River.
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Old 7th February 2015, 14:18   #14
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Default Re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Scary....automation is possible as long as all scenarios are understood and pre-programmed.
All scenarios can never be understood nor programmed. Sometimes subjective minds (pilot) have to takeover. Machines can't think outside the box, since it is not a programmed behavior.
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Old 9th February 2015, 13:52   #15
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Exclamation Re: Missing! AirAsia's Indonesia to Singapore Flight QZ8501

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
ATR72-600, a pretty common version of what Indian operators use for <500km flights.
Quote:
The black boxes from TransAsia Airways flight 235 ...
Just as it reached 1,200 feet, the right engine went out.
However, the pilots shut down the left engine, instead of the right.
...
Eerily similar to the 1989 M1-Motorway-Crash - where too the pilots shutdown the wrong engine.
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