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Old 27th March 2015, 10:50   #46
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Captain gave his descent briefing where the copilot apparently was non committal or interested. That was the first warning flag, I would have not disregarded that. Then the captain began descent and went to the toilet (this is absolutely normal), however in India the cabin crew secures the forward galley and then comes in to the flight deck when one pilot is out. This crucial safety check is apparently not required in Germany, I am not sure. So technically the plane was descending, on autopilot and the captain was out in the galley or lav. When he wanted to return back, no response from the copilot (now here we can suspect incapacitation), but when the captain tried the emergency unlock procedure, the copilot overrode it, to ensure the door remained locked, that is the second warning flag, about potential highjack or terrorist activity. From here began the sad saga of the plane slamming into the ground with the captain and cabin crew and may be all passengers knowing the inevitable and helpless.

Single pilot operation is feasible in small non complex aircraft not large passenger or cargo jets, with multiple systems and greater complexity which on a bad day can easily overwhelm a single person. Two people are there for a reason, to make good judgement calls and back each other up. Also if a single pilot wants to take a loo break who is going to fly the aircraft or monitor systems in his absence? With flight times of between 2 to 15 hours a person needs his breaks.

Regarding theories about mechanical failure like hydraulics or flight controls, the first thing a trained pilot does after his initial recovery actions is to scream mayday into his headsets alerting controllers, it is a memory action drilled and trained several times, and people do it almost involuntarily. Regarding loss of pressurization the A320 system is so designed that if there is loss in cabin or cockpit pressure the cockpit door blows open to ease the pressure difference, which was not in this case, also if the pressure latches are faulty (possible) then the cockpit door by design is not intrusion proof, that means anyone outside can force it open.. hope this helps.
From all the data I have seen the captain did not initiate the descent, but the Co-pilot did after the captain left the cockpit. You dont even need the flightrecorder for that as the data pertaining to dialing the new altitude is/can be captured as part of the ADS-B signal and apparently it has. They know it was reset to 100 feet, well below the average terrain altitude of around 6000ft. Subsequently the descent was initiated. not sure how that is done in an Airbus, but I assume very similar as in a Boeing where next to dialing in the new altitude it needs one single buttom push to start the ascent or descent to that new altitude. Providing some form of vertical auto mode or auto pilot is engaged to start with.

I did not say single pilot operations of commercial airliners is a fact. It is being very seriously researched and if you read international aviation magazines you can find many articles about it. Earlier this year NASA announced and awarded a substantial contract to further this research:

http://aviationweek.com/technology/n...tions-concepts

Here is another interesting thought, based on lots of empircal evidence that has been growing over the years:

If you want to improve the safety in the cockpit from the human point of view, you might want to look at having at least a male / female crew, or better yet, an all female crew. As the other gender is making it into the worlds civilian and military cockpits more and more evidence is beginning to appear that female pilots have fewer (fatal) incident and accidents than male pilots. (Source: amongst others Flying Magazine March issue)

Simply put; it appear that female pilots are bettter/safer pilots then male pilots.

Jeroen
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:16   #47
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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From all the data I have seen the captain did not initiate the descent, but the Co-pilot did after the captain left the cockpit. You dont even need the flightrecorder for that as the data pertaining to dialing the new altitude is/can be captured as part of the ADS-B signal and apparently it has. They know it was reset to 100 feet, well below the average terrain altitude of around 6000ft. Subsequently the descent was initiated. not sure how that is done in an Airbus, but I assume very similar as in a Boeing where next to dialing in the new altitude it needs one single buttom push to start the ascent or descent to that new altitude. Providing some form of vertical auto mode or auto pilot is engaged to start with.

I did not say single pilot operations of commercial airliners is a fact. It is being very seriously researched and if you read international aviation magazines you can find many articles about it. Earlier this year NASA announced and awarded a substantial contract to further this research:

http://aviationweek.com/technology/n...tions-concepts

Here is another interesting thought, based on lots of empircal evidence that has been growing over the years:

If you want to improve the safety in the cockpit from the human point of view, you might want to look at having at least a male / female crew, or better yet, an all female crew. As the other gender is making it into the worlds civilian and military cockpits more and more evidence is beginning to appear that female pilots have fewer (fatal) incident and accidents than male pilots. (Source: amongst others Flying Magazine March issue)

Simply put; it appear that female pilots are bettter/safer pilots then male pilots.

Jeroen
Not sure about male versus female thing, but in a serious emergency females have been known to panic, freeze at the controls, which has been amply proven in routine sim sessions, that is the reason why majority of the world's air forces don't allow female fighter jet pilots yet. I believe when the flight versus fight syndrome exists, females may not be exactly on the ball in terms of quick judgement and reactions. Having said that, I am all for male/female flight deck crews, keeps the CRM better

Regarding the data you have, I don't have access to the information, so what you may say could be true. However in the airbus, if you manage your descent or do an open descent to a particular level, the aircraft will descend down to that level, however if it detects conflict such as terrain, or traffic it will throw out suitable warnings, I am not sure if the CVR has recorded such noises especially the gpws callouts. The easiest way to do a CFIT is to descend using vertical speed by keeping the altitude selected above ones current altitude, in that case the plane doesn't know what level it is descending to, and basically will keep descending at the selected vertical speed until impact. Thats why majority of the airlines have SOP which prevent vertical speed descends, the Indian airline crash in Bangalore golf course several years back was because of this.
What is saddening is even if it is suicide, why kill 150 innocent souls just for you to take your life? There are several easier ways to kill oneself.
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:19   #48
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

Or could this be the case.

A large number of people in Germany are fighting for the IS (radical muslims). Not sure if this pilot has been brainwashed. Is Germany fighting alongside US against the IS. if so, this act of the pilot deliberately crashing the plane into the mountain could be to issue a warning that if Germany continues to do so, this will be the fate of their citizens.

Correct me if I am wrong
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:20   #49
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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I believe when the flight versus fight syndrome exists, females may not be exactly on the ball in terms of quick judgement and reactions.
I don't think you know about Neerja Bhanot

Because if you did, you would not make such an absurd statement.
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:24   #50
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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I don't think you know about Neerja Bhanot

Because if you did, you would not make such an absurd statement.
I hope you had time to read my comment fully, instead of picking up one statement and making a comment, I didn't attack anyone personally neither attacked either gender. I don't need any personal comments regarding what I wrote either. thank you sir.
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:38   #51
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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Or could this be the case.

A large number of people in Germany are fighting for the IS (radical muslims). Not sure if this pilot has been brainwashed. Is Germany fighting alongside US against the IS. if so, this act of the pilot deliberately crashing the plane into the mountain could be to issue a warning that if Germany continues to do so, this will be the fate of their citizens.

Correct me if I am wrong
Thats's right Suresh, The co-pilot in question was seen by surveillance camera's eating a shawarma at the local doner kebab stall!!

What length's people will go to in order to bring up a middle east/ islam link.

Islamophobic much Suresh?

Last edited by Mubeen : 27th March 2015 at 11:48.
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:41   #52
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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I hope you had time to read my comment fully, instead of picking up one statement and making a comment, I didn't attack anyone personally neither attacked either gender. I don't need any personal comments regarding what I wrote either. thank you sir.

You did generalize about 50% of the world's population in your first paragraph:

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Not sure about male versus female thing, but in a serious emergency females have been known to panic, freeze at the controls, which has been amply proven in routine sim sessions, that is the reason why majority of the world's air forces don't allow female fighter jet pilots yet. I believe when the flight versus fight syndrome exists, females may not be exactly on the ball in terms of quick judgement and reactions. Having said that, I am all for male/female flight deck crews, keeps the CRM better

Why should women pilots be held in some sort of lower status because of unfounded perceptions?

They are just as good or as bad as other pilots.
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Old 27th March 2015, 11:50   #53
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

Co-Pilot deliberately crashed plane : French Officials

Source : Times Of India
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Old 27th March 2015, 12:42   #54
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Simply put; it appear that female pilots are bettter/safer pilots then male pilots.

Jeroen
I'm not surprised. Makes sense intuitively: because of their low numbers in some fields traditionally dominated by men, the women who do rise to the top are those who've had to prove themselves much more than their male comrades and are also probably trying a fair bit harder as well. Meg Ryan in "Courage Under Fire" comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Not sure about male versus female thing, but in a serious emergency females have been known to panic, freeze at the controls, which has been amply proven in routine sim sessions, that is the reason why majority of the world's air forces don't allow female fighter jet pilots yet.
Oh my- that wouldn't do now would it? We'd have to have an extra man for every woman in that case- you know, to hold her hand in case of an emergency!

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Originally Posted by suresh_gs View Post
Or could this be the case.

A large number of people in Germany are fighting for the IS (radical muslims). Not sure if this pilot has been brainwashed. Is Germany fighting alongside US against the IS. if so, this act of the pilot deliberately crashing the plane into the mountain could be to issue a warning that if Germany continues to do so, this will be the fate of their citizens.

Correct me if I am wrong
Terrorism thrives on fear and if the attack is unclaimed, it defeats the purpose. So while your theory is tenable, it sounds a bit unlikely. Let's wait for events to unfold.
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Old 27th March 2015, 12:54   #55
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

Times of India is just another cowdung news agency, expert at twisting facts and stealing news from international news agencies.

I would still wait for the actual report, won't at all blame the Co-Pilot for suicide.
Unless the CVR is made public and I can, or the investigators can hear the Co-pilot saying something, they can only speculate that the co-pilot pressed the descend button because he wanted to commit suicide.

I feel very bad when such stories / theories / speculation starts surfacing.
Same happened for the pilot of MH370, but nothing could be proved.

It is a shame to point fingers to someone dead, just because he/she can't defend themselves.

I would ask the investigators, have they searched / interrogated the immediate family members and linked any suicide causes before making such statements. Very very shameful of the investigators to speculate such stories.




EDIT: Just read the CNN article : http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/27/eu...ain/index.html

Banging and screaming, and breath of the co-pilot could be heard. Good.
Couldn't they hear what conversations happened before that ?
Did the Pilot walk out on his own ?
Did the co-pilot ask the pilot to go for a break ?
Did the pilot give any instruction before leaving ?

So many questions that they should scrutinize properly before saying that the co-pilot refused to open the door deliberately because his breath was steady !!

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Last edited by Soumyajit9 : 27th March 2015 at 13:09.
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Old 27th March 2015, 12:55   #56
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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You did generalize about 50% of the world's population in your first paragraph:




Why should women pilots be held in some sort of lower status because of unfounded perceptions?

They are just as good or as bad as other pilots.
Jeroen generalised by commenting female pilots are better. I was only stating otherwise. Anyway that's off topic. I believe we must wait for the full report, it's wrong to sentence the copilot right now.
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Old 27th March 2015, 13:09   #57
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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Times of India is just another cowdung news agency, expert at twisting facts and stealing news from international news agencies.

I would still wait for the actual report, won't at all blame the Co-Pilot for suicide.
Unless the CVR is made public and I can, or the investigators can hear the Co-pilot saying something, they can only speculate that the co-pilot pressed the descend button because he wanted to commit suicide.

I feel very bad when such stories / theories / speculation starts surfacing.
Same happened for the pilot of MH370, but nothing could be proved.

It is a shame to point fingers to someone dead, just because he/she can't defend themselves.

I would ask the investigators, have they searched / interrogated the immediate family members and linked any suicide causes before making such statements. Very very shameful of the investigators to speculate such stories.

This has been the problem with Indians in particular and Asians in general. They treat everyone dead as martyrs and heroes even if facts state otherwise. You are suggesting that unless you hear the tapes you won't believe the investigators. Then what motive does the French investigators have to malign the young co pilot. We should be relived that this accident has not gone the MH370 or Air asia 8501 way. The Asian agencies were competing to hide information. Still we don't know how 8501 crashed forget MH370.
It is not the investigators who are speculating, their claims are backed up by solid CVR data which you have no access.
It is very important to bare down investigation details in public. Unless corrective steps are taken every person who flies should be dreading of being flown by psychos.
Human psychology is too complex to make generalized statements like this guy seemed quite normal and was nice to everyone around him. So why would he do something horrible like this? The suicide of DK Ravi is another example of public vigilantism gone horribly wrong.

Last edited by poloman : 27th March 2015 at 13:22.
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Old 27th March 2015, 13:34   #58
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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This has been the problem with Indians in particular and Asians in general. They treat everyone dead as martyrs and heroes even if facts state otherwise.
Correction: No one said "Martyrs". I said (rather meant) "Innocent until proven guilty".

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You are suggesting that unless you hear the tapes you won't believe the investigators. Then what motive does the French investigators have to malign the young co pilot.
No motive, they (investigators) need Maturity while speaking in press conferences.

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We should be relived that this accident has not gone the MH370 or Air asia 8501 way. The Asian agencies were competing to hide information. Still we don't know how 8501 crashed forget MH370.
There are two diff things. One what I am saying, one what you understood.

I said: Maturity / Carefully speaking in pre-investigative stages. No one can be blamed until they have complete picture.
You understood: I want them to hide facts, like "you think" they hid in MH370 or AA 8501.

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It is not the investigators who are speculating, their claims are backed up by solid CVR data which you have no access.
I sincerely hope they are listening to each and every second of recording with caution and not just the banging of the door and the steady breath.

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It is very important to bare down investigation details in public. Unless corrective steps are taken every person who flies should be dreading of being flown by psychos.
Yes, agree, but the investigation has not yet concluded. All evidences are not yet collected. They are still searching for the 2nd black box, which will throw light on the more important technicalities part, and not just the human conversation recoding part (as of now).

Quote:
Human psychology is too complex to make generalized statements like this guy seemed quite normal and was nice to everyone around him. So why would he do something horrible like this? The suicide of DK Ravi is another example of public vigilantism going horribly wrong.
And hence I say, Investigate thoroughly and then comment in press. It is like you had an accident and everyone starts bullying you because you are the driver of a car, and the other fellow is a biker, who is now dead and can't say that he crossed the path accidentally. (I hope I am making a sensible comparision).

In the end: The media is playing all the hype. That is the sorry state of affair in most countries I believe. The guys are speaking in French and there are translations being made, of which the media may picking up spicy words like "Deliberate".
The way it is turning out in media is : "Co-Pilot HAS crashed" instead of "Co-pilot MAY HAVE crashed".

By the way, a quicker closure of the case, ensures quicker compensation, pension release, gratuity release, insurance release. Think about that angle too.

Last edited by Soumyajit9 : 27th March 2015 at 13:43. Reason: grammatical correction
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Old 27th March 2015, 13:47   #59
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

Pilot suicides are taboo in most of non Western world. Even MH370 and Air Asia 8501 had imprints of deliberate pilot actions. But nothing has come out even after months of tardy investigations.
Scroll through net there is good amount of praise for French investigators for handling this with maturity and impartiality. In such sensitive matters, I don't think any investigative agency will jump the gun unless they are absolutely clear and have the facts.
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Old 27th March 2015, 13:52   #60
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Default Re: Germanwings Airbus A320 with 150 people onboard crashes in the French Alps

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Jeroen generalised by commenting female pilots are better. .
No, not generalizing, referring to actual research and actual statistics.

See here: http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/p...rning-fly-girl

The author, John King is a very well established and respected aviation expert. He and his wife hold every pilot license and rating availalbe, have theirr own flight school and are very sought after as speakers on seminars on flight safety.

The notion that females would panick in stressfull situation and that it is proven on SIM's I'm not aware of. And I would suprise me greatly.

Having worked for numerous years in the Offshore wold, ocean salvage I have been in several very tricky situations. From several major fires on board ships and oil rigs, severe accidents with death and limbs being torn of and once in the Persian Gulf the ship I was sailing on came under attack and was fired upon. In those days there were no females on ships or oil rigs. Only men, rough, tough men. But I've seen plenty of these very rough and touch oil and tugboat men, freeze, walk away, panick, and whatever in these situations. Very few of all those tough men actually took charge and started doing something.

I dont think freezing and or panicking is gender specific. You only have to watch youtube and look for some of these tragedies in for instance a football stadium which collapses or a Rock Concert where people panick and try to fight their way out though a small exit and you will see no difference in behaviour based on gender I would think.

The "females are more safe trend" appearing in aviation is no surprise. In other industries and areas this has been the case already. In many Western countries women drivers enjoy lower car insurance premium then their male counterparts as they have fewer accidents. There tends to be a difference in how much driving and where the driving takes places females versus men, but even when that is normalized the same pattern occurs, females are safer drivers.

The same has been found for female truck drivers and female bus drivers! Amsterdam has trams and no surprise the same is true there as well!

Due to several recent aviation accidents, a lot of the public focus has gone towards how current pilots rely to heavily on automation, dont know how to fly manually anymore and such.

Truth is, in both GA and Commercial aviation more than 85% of the fatal accidents are due to loss of control and or flight into terrain. There are certain situation where superior manual piloting skill might save the day. But in the vast majority of these 85% the whole situation could have prevented and it was due to poor and unsafe aeronautical decision making by the pilot that ultimate led to the fatal accidents. John King in his article eludes to the fact that women might be safer because they are far better in thinking things through and qualifying and managing risks.

I have no statistics on this, but put the question to yourself. Who are likely to be taking bigger risks in just about any situation? Men or females? I know what my answer would be.

And that's most likely why my wife is a better driver than I am, and If she would have a pilot license, would have been a better pilot.

Better in this context is, obviously, safer. And every statistic that follows this, shows its true.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 27th March 2015 at 14:20.
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