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Old 25th April 2015, 23:42   #256
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
What you have right now is a monthly fixed bill to access the satellite sending signals from a worldwide union of broadcasters who're OK with you watching their channels if you've paid for accessing the satellite. Maybe they'll make you watch a genius knife commercial occasionally.

Airtel wants to be the Cable Guy.
Yes, sir. And in that case, I won't have the freedom to choose what I want. Telecom companies want that as in the future they will be free to screen websites , or charge arbitrarily.

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For those thinking whats wrong with a free plan. Well listen up. If free plan is allowed, it means net neutrality can be violated, this means operators can charge extra for whatsapp, skype or whatever they think threatens their business model.
Exactly! In any business, in case of competition, one does not simply put their hands up and demand this or that. If what you offer is competitive, people will do business with you. The telecom companies are afraid of growing wifi usage and decrease in voice/sms usage.

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Telcos are warning a 6-fold (yes, six times!) increase in data tariffs if Skype, whatsapp etc are not made chargeable! I say please go on and hike the tariffs...and see your business crumble!
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This is blackmail. Pure and simple. And cartelization is a an offense under the IPC.
COAI is behaving like a cartel, and must be broken up.

Coming back, if they want to charge 1000rs for 1MB of data, they are free to do so. But if 10 of them band together and offer this cartel set price, then the companies need to be broken up, because this is breaking the law. That said, some believe, the in the interest of freedom and free market, cartelization should be legal. Free market god will come down from the sky and break cartels by magic.
I think this is what Competition Commission of India is there for. And incase the telecom companies to charge through the roof, the Indian public is so money sensitive that people will stop using these services and as you said, the Free market God will do his/her work.

What is the stand of companies like MTNL/BSNL? I mean their broadband services. Do these also come under the proposed net-neutrality idea? Because technically, they too offer Over the top services as mentioned by TRAI. Incase they (and other broadband services) do not come under this net neutrality thing, won't it be just cheaper to get city wide wifi services?

Last edited by blackwasp : 25th April 2015 at 23:45. Reason: added quote by saket77
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Old 25th April 2015, 23:46   #257
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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I don't have any sympathy for these telecom companies.I don't have any enmity either. But we have to bear in mind the ARPU figures in India are abysmally low.The average ARPU of Indian Telecom Service Providers (TSPs) is merely $2.96, compared to an international average of $35-40. So the regulators are going to closely look at this figure. If average revenue per user is falling to unsustainable levels, even the regulator will be forced to go with what these companies are saying.
I read some where that real challenge that faces mobile service operators in India is the user connecting to services like Whatsapp and Skype from Wifi at home or elsewhere. In case of a service like the SMS, the user was charged only at one end but in a service like Whatsapp both the sender and the receiver are billed for the data they consume. So they can easily counter this by raising the data rates. But they don't really have any control on the other scenario. The cartelization then has to extend to broadband vendors.
Each market is different and hence you cannot compare one statistic like ARPU in isolation. As per Vodafone India, EBITDA is at 31.8% versus global average of 29.4%. This coupled with the growth potential in India is one reason why the Indian market is so attractive to telcos.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...2400019_1.html

Increasing data rates might not be required in the face of declining bandwidth costs globally, but of course telcos have every right to increase rates as per their discretion, as long as it is not done as a cartel. Of course proving cartelization is not easy, so they have a good chance of getting away with that too.
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Old 26th April 2015, 00:36   #258
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

IF it is so nonviable, why is the profit not declining?
http://www.moneycontrol.com/financia...ofit-loss/BA08
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Old 26th April 2015, 19:35   #259
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IF it is so nonviable, why is the profit not declining?
http://www.moneycontrol.com/financia...ofit-loss/BA08

It is declining if you compare it to 2010 and 2011. More importantly, it is declining as a percentage of their total revenues. Not so good. Would you invest in a company that requires constant huge capex investments, does manage to grow the top line, but gets a smaller return every year?

And bharti is probably doing better then any other operator in India to start with.

Jeroen

Last edited by mobike008 : 27th April 2015 at 22:23. Reason: Signature repeated...Deleted the twice repeated words
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Old 26th April 2015, 20:24   #260
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Each market is different and hence you cannot compare one statistic like ARPU in isolation. As per Vodafone India, EBITDA is at 31.8% versus global average of 29.4%. This coupled with the growth potential in India is one reason why the Indian market is so attractive to telcos.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...2400019_1.html

Increasing data rates might not be required in the face of declining bandwidth costs globally, but of course telcos have every right to increase rates as per their discretion, as long as it is not done as a cartel. Of course proving cartelization is not easy, so they have a good chance of getting away with that too.
The QoS of data based calling on cellular networks is so bad that not many customers are doing that currently. Again as posted earlier, telcos get revenues from whatsapp and other messaging services since lot of data is send on these in both directions offsetting the losses from SMS or MMS services. So this is yet to reflect in their topline or bottomline.
There is no harm in protecting the interests of telecom companies, since this is one sector which we can proudly showcase to the world, even better than that of many developed countries. We should desist from our usual habit of killing golden gooses.

Last edited by poloman : 26th April 2015 at 20:30.
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Old 26th April 2015, 22:24   #261
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Who owns the under sea cables which connect India to rest of the world?
What are charges involved for the ISPs for using these cables?

The reason I am asking is; If at a later time the ISPs say that the expenses for connecting outside world is high and hence they start charging less for websites/services within India and charge very high for websites/services from outside India, can that be justified?

It is just a thought that came to my mind. I do not know how the ISPs work.

Last edited by Holyghost : 26th April 2015 at 22:27.
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Old 27th April 2015, 01:21   #262
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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It is declining if you compare it to 2010 and 2011. More importantly, it is declining as a percentage of their total revenues. Not so good. Would you invest in a company that requires constant huge capex investments, does manage to grow the top line, but gets a smaller return every year?
Numbers only tell you part of the story, a little more research would have shown that Airtel's profits declined from the time they acquired the African business in 2010.

"One of the main reasons for Bharti Airtel's financial woes is the bruising competition in the telecom sector. The operator has been hit by dirt cheap call rates, mounting financing costs and foreign exchange losses because of the depreciation of the rupee. But the biggest drain on the company's finances is its money-losing African business.

In 2010, it acquired the African operations of Kuwait-based Zain Telecom for $10 billion and had expected revenues of $5 billion from that business by2012/13. But it is likely to miss that target by close to $1.5 billion. "

So the declining profitability in 2010-11 had nothing to do with falling margins in data traffic in India. You must remember that whatsapp was not even popular back then.
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Old 27th April 2015, 07:03   #263
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So the declining profitability in 2010-11 had nothing to do with falling margins in data traffic in India. You must remember that whatsapp was not even popular back then.

So how much is their data revenue and data margin for India. How many operators around the world make good margins on data?
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Old 27th April 2015, 07:37   #264
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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So how much is their data revenue and data margin for India. How many operators around the world make good margins on data?
You can get the segment wise break up from airtels website. http://www.airtel.in/wps/wcm/connect...tentCache=NONE

For Dec 2014, data was 16.2% of all mobile revenue. The trend is increasing.

Don't have it handy for other geographies, but you could easily google it for whichever operator you want.
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Old 27th April 2015, 19:15   #265
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

^^Look it doesn't matter a whit if a particular telecom company makes 16% profit or 30%. That is for them to manage. Just because some company is not profitable doesn't mean they can run slipshod over their consumers' freedom of choice.

Provide us the pipes and charge us appropriately for it- your job is done. You don't have the mandate to "provide internet access free to millions of people" or any such claptrap that you are peddling in the name of killing net neutrality.

Edit: Adding this news that I came across.
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With virtually every Internet user batting for the SaveTheInternet campaign that rallied the country’s attention around the Net Neutrality issue, it so happens that all of the emails sent to the TRAI are now publicly visible.

This TRAI page, for example, has a list of 10,801 emails from that campaign. That’s not it: the TRAI has 16 such lists, and your mail to them might just be within one of those. Further, clicking through the links on this these pages leads to complete emails, many of which have addresses, phone numbers and other personal details in the signatures.
TRAI stands for Telecom REGULATORY AUTHORITY of India right? These guys who are the authority on regulating don't know that a private email sent by an individual can't be just shared like that, along with his name and any other signature information that is easy pickings for any spammer?

I fear for this nation.

Last edited by noopster : 27th April 2015 at 19:31. Reason: Added more news
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Old 27th April 2015, 19:45   #266
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.......These guys who are the authority on regulating don't know that a private email sent by an individual can't be just shared like that, along with his name and any other signature information that is easy pickings for any spammer?.......
Wow! It would be funny if it wasn't so horrifying. Are they really so dumb to inadvertently make such sensitive info public, or is it just another sly move to intimidate petition-signing, email-writing, protesting public? "Write to us in good faith, in response to OUR own request no less, and we'll make your full email public without a second thought". And we're supposed to TRUST these clowns to do the right thing!

Just wow!

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 27th April 2015 at 19:48.
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Old 27th April 2015, 20:58   #267
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

Horrible to say the least, what TRAI has done. They should immediately take those mails off from public domain.
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Old 27th April 2015, 21:23   #268
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Horrible to say the least, what TRAI has done. They should immediately take those mails off from public domain.
Theyve already been DDOSd by Anonymous India, though I feel the damage may already have been done.
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Old 27th April 2015, 22:19   #269
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

the importance of net neutrality

http://tech.firstpost.com/news-analy...ty-264382.html
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Old 28th April 2015, 00:35   #270
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

Just a passing thought :

See, if there are 10 online retailing companies that benefit from ISPs, (and indirectly pass on the extra cost to us), it'll be easy for the government to legally regulate/scare them and subject them to the judicial probe.

Also, these companies want to protect their brands, so they'll ensure the 3rd party sellers operate fairly on their platform.

Now, if there are a LAKH online retailing companies, and they manage to 'legally' cheat people (by hiding behind absurd, but legal, terms & conditions) then how'll the government administer justice? (they won't have all that mechanism to control 1 lakh sellers)

So, practically speaking, isn't it OK to be have partial net neutrality, but still favouring this format where a few websites are allowed to have special privileges?

IMO extra charge for voice services is absolute B*ll Sh*t, but this 0 rating could not be as bad!

Plus, the govt & telecom companies also have the guilty-conscience that they gave something unfair! So that'll regulate the extent of net-partiality. It won't become too excessive.

Think deeply about feasibility & practicality. IMO, it would indirectly work FOR the consumers!

Now that the above situation is unlikely, the telecom companies taught,

Quote:
How do we sustainably scale our business throughout the country within the next 5 years? (within current govt existance, because seems they too want entire country digitally connected).

We've BOUGHT the nationwide licences anyway!

Ah, let's calculate the cost of infrastructure & working capital requirements and see.

*Solution arrives*, to start with expanding the venture & spread all over India in the next 4&half years , we would need a large corpus taken as debt & a steady flow of funds (to pay it back in installments), which would need to be sourced from revenue i.e. Tariff charged to final consumer.

And the amount comes to Rs.1,500/1GB data per month.

Which turns out to be 6 times the current tariff (for >10 fold expansion).

Let's tell this to the people, so they may reconsider
And now we're crying foul about such a hike & are calling it illegal and evil, though India follows a liberal economy where competition & free market are the rule.

Whatsay? I think although it's unfair, it's practical, sustainable & may very well turn beneficial for the consumer in the long term.

Let me know if there's any (/ how many) loophole(/s) is/are there in my understanding.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 28th April 2015 at 00:43.
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