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Old 29th April 2015, 11:34   #286
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
It actually depends upon how much the cell tower is loaded. In areas like Whitefield and ORR where there are lot of IT professional, you will see very poor speeds even with H+ showing.
Totally true. I got this speed bang in the middle of EPIP area and AFIK there is an airtel antenna or booster in my office premises itself. At my home also I get speeds like 4Mbps, but this varies widely from time to time.

Last edited by poloman : 29th April 2015 at 11:36.
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Old 29th April 2015, 11:42   #287
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

Found this contradicting to what the 6 fold rate increase reasoning was all harping about?

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news...-growth-686628

Quote:
Bharti Airtel on Tuesday reported an over 30 percent jump in its consolidated net profit at Rs.
1,255 crores for the March quarter, driven by growth in mobile data revenue.

The country's largest telecom operator had reported a net profit of Rs. 962 crores in the corresponding period a year ago.

Total revenue of the company rose 3.6 percent to Rs. 23,016 crores for the reported quarter as compared with Rs. 22,219 crores in the year-ago period, Bharti Airtel said in a statement.

On yearly basis, the net profit soared 86.9 percent to Rs. 5,183 crores for FY 2014-15 as compared with Rs. 2,773 crores in the previous fiscal.

Total revenue for the entire 2014-15 fiscal rose 7.3 percent to Rs. 92,039 crores as against Rs. 85,746 crores in the preceding year.

"The year has ended on a healthy note, with revenue growth accelerating to 12.1 percent in FY 2014-15, from 9.9 percent and 9.5 percent respectively in the previous two years," Bharti Airtel MD and CEO (India and South Asia) Gopal Vittal said.

Consolidated mobile data revenues at Rs. 3,085 crores grew by 59.1 percent year-over-year, uplifted by higher data usage and robust customer growth.

In India, mobile data revenues registered a growth of 70.4 percent to reach Rs. 2,324 crores, uplifted by increase in usage per customer by 41.2 percent and data customer base by 30.3 percent.

Data average revenue per user (ARPU) has moved up by Rs. 43 to Rs. 176 in Q4 FY15.

Mobile data revenues contribute to 17.6 percent of mobile India revenues vis-a-vis 11.5 percent
in the corresponding quarter last year.

Africa revenues grew by 3.4 percent year-on-year in constant currency terms, but the reported revenues were down by 12.6 percent due to significant currency movements in last 12 months.

The company's consolidated net debt as on March 31, 2015 stood at $10,679 million.
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Old 29th April 2015, 11:42   #288
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Most speed tests will show you burst speeds, not consistent streams. Try testing with something that can plot a real-time graph over long durations and you'll see the reality of 3G in most of India. Traffic matters too, as Tanveer suggested.

The only real world test is to try a data heavy activity and see how well it works, irrespective of what the signal icon would have you believe.

I'm a moderately heavy data user w.r.t. file transfers, and I'm constantly frustrated by Airtel's patchy service on the move. Vodafone and Idea aren't much better. I pay a bomb just to watch my devices struggle for a consistent data connection more often than not.
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Old 29th April 2015, 11:54   #289
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Found this contradicting to what the 6 fold rate increase reasoning was all harping about?

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news...-growth-686628
The other side of the story
http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...e-drops/67761/
The January-March quarter earnings of the country’s top two listed mobile operators — Bharti Airtel and Idea Cellular — confirm telcos’ worst fear: That their voice revenue, which contributes almost 80% to their overall revenues, is under pressure due to the growing dominance of over-the-top (OTT) operators.
The profitability and revenues of the operators are increasingly getting dependent on data revenue, which is rising — data revenue in the case of Bharti, for instance, registered a growth of 70.4% on a yearly basis — but voice realisations are either remaining static or declining. This does not augur well since the yield from voice services is higher, which cannot be compensated by rising data revenue unless the charges for the latter are not increased by some 6-10 times to protect current revenues. The reason is that while a one-minute voice call yields around 50 paise to the operators, a similar duration internet-based call (VoIP) yields only around 4 paise under the current tariff structure.
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Old 29th April 2015, 12:00   #290
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
The other side of the story
http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...e-drops/67761/
The January-March quarter earnings of the country’s top two listed mobile operators — Bharti Airtel and Idea Cellular — confirm telcos’ worst fear: That their voice revenue, which contributes almost 80% to their overall revenues, is under pressure due to the growing dominance of over-the-top (OTT) operators.
The profitability and revenues of the operators are increasingly getting dependent on data revenue, which is rising — data revenue in the case of Bharti, for instance, registered a growth of 70.4% on a yearly basis — but voice realisations are either remaining static or declining. This does not augur well since the yield from voice services is higher, which cannot be compensated by rising data revenue unless the charges for the latter are not increased by some 6-10 times to protect current revenues. The reason is that while a one-minute voice call yields around 50 paise to the operators, a similar duration internet-based call (VoIP) yields only around 4 paise under the current tariff structure.
How does it matter?
As technology evolves, you adapt. Imagine if you were making horse carts and also started making cars in the early 20th century. Slowly your revenue from carts would decrease, and from cars would increase.
We are moving to "data". So naturally, voice revenue will go down, and data will go up. You adapt. Thats the nature of doing business.
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Old 29th April 2015, 12:16   #291
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Provide us the pipes and charge us appropriately for it- your job is done. You don't have the mandate to "provide internet access free to millions of people" or any such claptrap that you are peddling in the name of killing net neutrality.
Question is the definition of "appropriately". The Telcos will argue that the big data pipes requires for OTT require huge capex (and they are right) and hence they should be permitted to charge "appropriately" for OTT services.

Problem is with only a "few" Telcos having the pockets to fund these huge capex requirements these few Telcos could then charge monopoly prices for their data plans.

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
I used to get 10-12mbps on idea 3G in my ipad. now with vodafone its usually 5-6mbps.
Now this is one part I cant seem to understand. If they give us bigger pipes, we will only consume more and this consumption should lead to greater revenues.

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
This does not augur well since the yield from voice services is higher, which cannot be compensated by rising data revenue unless the charges for the latter are not increased by some 6-10 times to protect current revenues. The reason is that while a one-minute voice call yields around 50 paise to the operators, a similar duration internet-based call (VoIP) yields only around 4 paise under the current tariff structure.
What prevents them from increasing data (not specific data but all data) rates?
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Old 29th April 2015, 12:49   #292
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Question is the definition of "appropriately". The Telcos will argue that the big data pipes requires for OTT require huge capex (and they are right) and hence they should be permitted to charge "appropriately" for OTT services.

Problem is with only a "few" Telcos having the pockets to fund these huge capex requirements these few Telcos could then charge monopoly prices for their data plans.
Exactly, by inking deals with supply side, it curtails competition. For example, lets say Airtel makes a deal with Whatsapp where whatsapp pays airtel, and you can use it without data plan.
Tomorrow thatsapp comes up, as a startup. They do not have the deep pockets. They will never get traction, because so many people are on whatsapp.
This is the reason utilities are forced to be neutral.
In the 20th century, Internet was not a necessity. But in the 21st, its just like electricity.
Will you allow an electricity company to charge differential pricing for a LG washing machine vs a Samsung Washing machine?
Same logic applies here



Quote:
Now this is one part I cant seem to understand. If they give us bigger pipes, we will only consume more and this consumption should lead to greater revenues.
Their profits are increasing as people use more and more data and smartphone usage soars. I do not see the doom and gloom the lobbyists are predicting.


Quote:
What prevents them from increasing data (not specific data but all data) rates?
Competition. Just like it should.
In areas where there is no competition(Many densely populated Cities of India), they do charge an arm and a leg

For example
Delhi area : 4mbps plan with 80GB FUP = 2099
Bangalore : 16mbps plan with 80GB FUP = 1349

This is from the Same operator : Airtel.

Operators will abuse their monopoly position wherever they can. If they can defeat net neutrality, they will be able to do what Comcast did. For example, blackmail Netflix and throttle.
If there is no net neutrality regulation, and Airtel decides to throttle youtube unless youtube pays them money, I have no alternative.
I live in a very densely populated city.
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Old 29th April 2015, 14:01   #293
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by navin View Post

What prevents them from increasing data (not specific data but all data) rates?
I am all for net neutrality, Only joined discussion when some members who supported net neutrality started blaming Telcos when they hinted at hiking data charges. You can't mix up cartelization, monopoly etc along with net neutrality as these needs to be discussed in their own contexts.

Last edited by poloman : 29th April 2015 at 14:04.
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Old 29th April 2015, 14:56   #294
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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This is the reason utilities are forced to be neutral.

Competition. Just like it should.

In areas where there is no competition(Many densely populated Cities of India), they do charge an arm and a leg. Operators will abuse their monopoly position wherever they can.
One difference. At least in India utilities (aka water and electricity) are govt owned and run and the govt. really does not have to worry about numbers like ROI, ROCE or shareholders.

Competition will only work where are adequate competitors to ensure no cartel is formed. Like you said, in some cities, due to the lack of adequate competition prices are higher than in other areas. The market will determine the price, the TRAI, maybe, should focus on ensuring adequate forces are in play to prevent cartelization of these services.

As far as net neutrality is concerned (equal access to every service provided the service adheres to the same format - aka data, voice, sms) that's a no brainer. I cant wrap my head around why Flipkart would want to tie up with Airtel, because then Amazon will tie up with Vodaphone and then we will have 2 or maybe more independent ecosystems and no one will win.

Last edited by navin : 29th April 2015 at 16:24.
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Old 29th April 2015, 18:03   #295
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

Man... this thread is never-ending. There is very simple way to understand this, I alluded to it in the very first page of this thread (post#7).

Businesses and Customers are connected to each other via Internet. It is these two parties who should decide whether they want to do business together. The ISP is just a guy who maintains the pipe between them for a price. He shouldn't poke his nose in between and favour one over the other.
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Old 29th April 2015, 22:09   #296
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Default Re: The fight for net neutrality is on! Time to reclaim the internet

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

Businesses and Customers are connected to each other via Internet. It is these two parties who should decide whether they want to do business together. The ISP is just a guy who maintains the pipe between them for a price. He shouldn't poke his nose in between and favour one over the other.
There is a disagreement on this basic tenet itself in this thread. So there is no point in again saying the same thing - the other side is still going to say that the ISP has a right!!
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Old 30th April 2015, 00:36   #297
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Default Idea Cellular wants to ban 40bit+ encryption too!

Idea%20Response%20-%20Regulatory%20framework%20for%20OTT%20services%20%28240415%29.pdf
Just go through this.
Its not just net neutrality. They want to control what sites we visit, how we visit, what do we use to communicate, and also want to listen in to what we communicate.

However I am wondering what is a killer OTT. Did whatsapp come out of the phone and kill somebody?
But worry not, Idea will train commandos in their IIN to fight these killer OTTs

Last edited by tsk1979 : 30th April 2015 at 00:41.
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Old 30th April 2015, 02:01   #298
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Default Re: Idea Cellular wants to ban 40bit+ encryption too!

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Attachment 1365744
Just go through this.
Its not just net neutrality. They want to control what sites we visit, how we visit, what do we use to communicate, and also want to listen in to what we communicate.

However I am wondering what is a killer OTT. Did whatsapp come out of the phone and kill somebody?
But worry not, Idea will train commandos in their IIN to fight these killer OTTs
They could've saved themselves all the effort of thinking up 36 pages of mumbo-jumbo and said this:

"We're dumb. We got screwed with arbitrarily high spectrum prices we were stupid enough to pay thinking we'll recoup it somehow, then we screwed each other in a race to the bottom instead of working on recouping the investment and since we can't do anything to fix either of those, we'll go after the only remaining option, the customer".

If they're so concerned about connecting the poor who can't afford internet, why don't they offer the poor customer access to a few websites of 'his choice' for free as a sample, making extra services payable? But that wouldn't make them big bucks now, would it? But it was about the goodness of their heart and the vision of a connected India, not the money right? Doesn't add up? Aha! Gotcha! How stupid do they think the average consumer is?

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 30th April 2015 at 02:05.
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Old 30th April 2015, 07:41   #299
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Start a petition on change.org.
"Sign this to let Airtel etc know that we will switch over to reliance if Airtel doesn't stop this nonsense by xxxx date."

RJio to Trai: Don't charge extra for Viber, Skype
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/47096436.cms via @timesofindia

Last edited by Rehaan : 30th April 2015 at 13:17. Reason: Fixing some formatting :)
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Old 30th April 2015, 07:46   #300
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Default Re: Idea Cellular wants to ban 40bit+ encryption too!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
"We're dumb. We got screwed with arbitrarily high spectrum prices we were stupid enough to pay thinking we'll recoup it somehow, then we screwed each other in a race to the bottom instead of working on recouping the investment and since we can't do anything to fix either of those, we'll go after the only remaining option, the customer".
Few points, spectrum was sold by auction. So every telecom paid the right price. Nothing obscene about the price. This has to be paid over 20 years. The average annual revenue for top 3 Indian telecom companies is around $5 billion or close to Rs 35,000 crores. They are not dumb.
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