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Old 4th September 2006, 14:59   #16
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4) Why do people blame autocop for not allowing the doors to open -- If the door refused to open , wat about the windows ?? And if windows were powered and water got in , blah blah blah ... why are such cars allowed to be manufactured ?? Or atleast it shud be advertised like cigarette packets -- CAUTION -- POWER WINDOWS MAY ENDANGER YOUR LIFE !!
the article I read in newspapers(HT and TOI) says that the doors and windows were not jammed. So people blaming autocop have not read the article and suffer from "Have to post" syndrome !
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Old 4th September 2006, 15:01   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
the article I read in newspapers(HT and TOI) says that the doors and windows were not jammed. So people blaming autocop have not read the article and suffer from "Have to post" syndrome !

Thank you tsk ... I was just not wanting to get into an unnecessary debate so avoided the direct route .. !!

Cheers
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Old 4th September 2006, 15:47   #18
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CO is completely odorless.
Being heavier than air, it crawls along the floor like a stealthy invisible monster.
My friend Mike Brown at Certified Automotive, Everett, Washington, used to clamp a hose to the tailpipes of cars he was working on in his garage. The other end of the hose would safely convey the exhaust gases from his running engines to the outdoors.

Even diluted to 400 ppm, CO is life-threatening.
Being completely odorless it doesn't scare you immediately.
Civilians and non-medical people don't react with alarm to a gentle onset of drowsiness.
And a mild headache can be attributed to anything from overeating to less sleep on the previous night.
Before you know it people drift off into sleep. Once a person has fallen unconscious, it's usually too late.

I would say any child falling asleep in a car with the engine running and the windows up, is grounds for suspicion.
Adults would stay awake longer and while they can't diagnose CO poisoning in themselves, they certainly can have their suspicions aroused when a small child drifts off to sleep in a closed car whose engine is running.

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Old 4th September 2006, 15:51   #19
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Originally Posted by tsk1979
the article I read in newspapers(HT and TOI) says that the doors and windows were not jammed. So people blaming autocop have not read the article and suffer from "Have to post" syndrome !
Hey guys,

If its my comment you'll are mentioning,; then let me please clarify that i wasnt mentioning/blaming Autocop for THIS particular incident. But was trying to highlight just the dangers Autocop (to be more politically correct - similar kind of gadgetry) can pose. Thought its a serious enough issue to be discussed in a hallowed forum like this. If anyone disagrees or thinks i am wrong, then please enlighten.
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Old 4th September 2006, 16:02   #20
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Default www.CarbonMonoxideKills.com

Friends:

Found an interesting website.

QUOTE

You can't smell it, see it or taste it, but it could be with you right now...

Because of this most people do not understand the nature of the problem from carbon monoxide poisoning. We are all aware that people commit suicide in their cars but that is about the level of of most peoples understanding.

Carbon Monoxide is the the most toxic substance you'll come into contact with in your daily life. In your home, at work, garage, car, caravan & boat.

Do not be one of the statistics, use some time today wisely and read the contents of this web site.

END QUOTE

http://www.CarbonMonoxideKills.com

Ram
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Old 4th September 2006, 16:35   #21
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CO is a killer, no doubt. but could it be that 2 adults didn't even know that they were feeling ill & did not try to get out of the car ?? i do not believe that they died of CO poisoning from the car, unless it was sabotaged.
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Old 4th September 2006, 16:51   #22
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Originally Posted by rks
My Santro manual specifically warns of this danger if AC is kept on during idling. This tragedy could have been prevented if the driver had taken the trouble of going through the manual. I must confess I myself became aware of this danger only recently while browsing the manual. But in any case I always switch off the engine if the idling period exceeds 5 mins or so.
Can you reproduce the relevant lines from the manual for the benefit of Non-Santro owners?
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Old 4th September 2006, 16:54   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rks
But in any case I always switch off the engine if the idling period exceeds 5 mins or so.
I wonder what you'd do RKS if you were ever in Delhi traffic .....takes an hour to hour and a half each day to cover 28 kms & I can't imagine switching off the AC every 5 minutes of idling cos that's all I'd be doing
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Old 4th September 2006, 17:23   #24
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I reside at Faridabad myself. The city has a horrible drainage system. Most roads do not have ANY rain water drain and as consequence water logging is a common problem whenever there is a heavy downpour. Though the figure of "4-feet-deep" water looks like an exaggeration, but yes, depths of 2-3 feet on the road are common.

On the evening of 2nd September, there was sudden and heavy rain at Faridabad which lasted for approximately 2 hours and as a consequnce, a lot of roads got water-logged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Hmmm, but don't people realise when this happens?

Shan2nu
While facing a natural calamity like sudden flood on the road, all one is concerned about is reaching home fast. In a state of anxiety, one can actually overlook a few safety concerns. The important thing is to learn from such unfortunate tragedies, and not forget about the precautions.

Last edited by directinjection : 4th September 2006 at 17:27.
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Old 4th September 2006, 18:21   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection
Can you reproduce the relevant lines from the manual for the benefit of Non-Santro owners?
I got hold of the manual and found the following under Sec. 4 "Driving your Hyundai":
Quote:

Warning: Engine exhaust can be dangerous

-- Do not inhale exhaust fumes
[...]

-- Be sure that the exhaust system does not leak
The exhaust system should be checked whenever the vehicle is raised to change the oil or for any other purpose. If you hear a change in the sound of the exhaust or if you drive over something that stikes the underneath side of the car, have the exhaust system checked as soon as possible by your Hyundai dealer.

-- Do not run the engine in an enclosed area
[...]

-- Avoid idling the engine for prolonged periods with people inside the car
If it is necessary to idle the engine for a prolonged period with people inside the car, be sure that you do so only in an open area with the air intake set at "Fresh" and fan operating at one of the higher speeds so that the fresh air is drawn into the interior.
If you drive with the trunk open because you are carrying objects that make it necessary:

1. Close all windows
2. Open side vents
3. Set the air intake control at "Fresh"; the air flow control at "Floor" or "Face" and the fan at one of the higher speeds.

To assure proper operation of the ventilation system, be sure that the ventilation air intakes located just in front of the windshield are kept clear of snow, ice, leaves or other obstructions.
I couldn't find any specific mention of AC drawing in exhaust fumes, though. It is also possible that there was some leak in the exhaust system that might have caused the deaths in this specific case -- maybe the car's underneath side got hit by something that caused the leak and the driver didn't notice.
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Old 4th September 2006, 18:43   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman
I wonder what you'd do RKS if you were ever in Delhi traffic .....takes an hour to hour and a half each day to cover 28 kms & I can't imagine switching off the AC every 5 minutes of idling cos that's all I'd be doing
There are a few reasons why prolonged idling should be avoided. One of these is the danger of inhaling exhaust fumes as mentioned in my previous post. Secondly, my Santro manual clearly identifies "extensive idling" as one of the "severe driving conditions" under which the engine oil should be changed every 5000 kms as opposed to 10000 kms under normal driving conditions. This was discussed in T-BHP sometime back -- prolonged idling is not good for the engine. Thirdly, the manual specifically states "Avoid idling the engine for periods longer than 10 minutes" in order to prevent overheating of the catalytic converter (which creates a fire hazard).

Edit: I have also read elsewhere that keeping AC on during prolonged periods of idling is bad for the AC compressor (apart from the car's engine).

Last edited by rks : 4th September 2006 at 18:57.
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Old 4th September 2006, 19:19   #27
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Originally Posted by khaadu75
Or maybe they were just destined to move on that way .... anyone seen ' FINAL DESTINATION ' series .... U cant cheat death !!!
Exactly. Either they (the parents I mean) might have commited a series of blunders or a series of events have closed all options down one by one....

As mentioned by fellow TBHPians, we cannot blame Hyundai for this. The car was in a sitiuation that is way out of its normal tested and hence servicable envelope.

May their souls rest in peace.
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Old 4th September 2006, 19:44   #28
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hai can anybody tell me ...what the cops r saying another chance of failure in central locking systems..........how come central locking stop a person from opening windows......i dont think any central locking locks the windows.... let it be Power windows....or the simple.........
& other thing as other have mentioned why didnt the car went off after the water went into the exhaust pipe...........there is something really fishy around here.........
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Old 4th September 2006, 20:07   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman
The whole thing is weird, I wonder what actually happened. The theory of CO through the AC vent doesn't completely jell.
Yes, some problem somewhere...

Firstly if the death is by CO... then the car engine would only produce it (sufficient quantity to kill) IF it is kept running in an enclosed area.... whether AC is on or not does not matter.

CO is produced only in case of lack of oxygen.

So maybe it was that the air intake was partially submerged under water which was restricting air flow.

If car engines were so bad that they spit out CO.. then... probably 3-4 cars together at every traffic signal would be enough to drop one two-wheeler guy out.

Last edited by SLK : 4th September 2006 at 20:08.
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Old 4th September 2006, 20:34   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLK
Firstly if the death is by CO... then the car engine would only produce it (sufficient quantity to kill) IF it is kept running in an enclosed area.... whether AC is on or not does not matter.

CO is produced only in case of lack of oxygen.
You are absolutely correct that CO is produced only in case of lack of oxygen.
It is a by-product of incomplete combustion. An open flame only produces carbon monoxide when there is lack of oxygen.

An idling automotive engine's exhaust contains 2% to 10% carbon monoxide anyway.
There is lack of oxygen anyway inside the engine's cylinders, esp. w.r.t the explosions taking place.
So the lack of oxygen argument does not hold in the case of the car's internal-combustion engine!
If the exhaust is piped direct into an average size passenger car cabin,
carbon monoxide will occupy about 1.5% of the volume of the passenger compartment within about 5 minutes.

This is enough to cause definite medical problems after 6 to 7 minutes from the time the car starts.

At that level even if the engine dies or is turned off, the victim will still die if he stays in the passenger cabin without ventilation.

Interestingly, diesel engines produce very little carbon monoxide and are generally not considered to be able to produce death, if there is even minimal ventilation.

A human being doesn't even have to be in an enclosed cabin to die due to automotive exhaust carbon monoxide.

Simply lying near the exhaust pipe and breathing the exhaust gases can cause 80% displacement of oxygen in the blood after some time, enough to cause death.

The most obvious sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is the cherry red appearance of the lips and fingernails. The rest of the skin will have a robust, healthy appearance, rather than the usual pallor of death.

The skin of a healthy person breathing oxygenated air is pink due to oxygenated haemoglobin, or oxyhaemoglobin.

The skin of a person poisoned by carbon monoxide is also pink, but due to carboxyhaemoglobin!

Carbon monoxide interferes with the blood-haemoglobin’s ability to transport oxygen to body organs and can therefore result in death at even very low levels. Because it is colorless and odorless, it is impossible to detect without proper measuring instruments.

Symptoms of CO poisoning are exactly similar to those of cold, flu, and allergy symptoms. Low levels of CO poisoning can result in headaches, lethargy, weakness, nausea, and muscle aches.

Reference: http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLK
If car engines were so bad that they spit out CO.. then... probably 3-4 cars together at every traffic signal would be enough to drop one two-wheeler guy out.
You are absolutely correct again and two-wheeler guys suffer immense headaches in heavy traffic jams due to carbon monoxide. It's good for them that they move into a high-speed slipstream after that, so they recover from the carbon monoxide poisoning before it's too late!

Ram

Last edited by Ram : 4th September 2006 at 20:35.
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