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Old 20th May 2016, 03:53   #16
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by mohammedismail View Post
If this is true, in today's world when there is so high security, especially in France from where it took off, how can someone by pass the security and carry a bomb into the plane?

This thing really makes me wonder!!
Yes, but the aircraft was in Egypt (Cairo), Tunisia (Tunis) and Eritrea (Asmara) before Paris, so anything could have happened in those places.

No wreckage has been found so far.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/liv...s-live-updates

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/18/mi...rs0450PMVODtop
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Old 20th May 2016, 09:46   #17
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
Yes, but the aircraft was in Egypt (Cairo), Tunisia (Tunis) and Eritrea (Asmara) before Paris, so anything could have happened in those places.
Question for pilots on the forum: Does airport security check the entire plane at each airport especially on international flights?

We already know it is quite possible that Egyptian airport security is lax after the Russian Metrojet Flight 9268 incident. In that case, ISIL claimed the attack and it is surmised a bomb was detonated using a timer 20 minutes after departure from Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.
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Old 20th May 2016, 10:56   #18
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

The real airport security loophole is not passenger screening - it is airport workers. Baggage handlers, catering staff, cleaners, etc. If a bomb has to be smuggled on board the aircraft, who else but a cleaner/baggage handler to hide it away nicely?
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Old 20th May 2016, 12:10   #19
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by Jeeper1941 View Post
Yes, but the aircraft was in Egypt (Cairo), Tunisia (Tunis) and Eritrea (Asmara) before Paris, so anything could have happened in those places.
I quoted France as an example, but these security checks must have happened in all other airports as well ? Yes in other airports it might not be as strict as Paris but a Bomb can be detected very easily with low security checks as well ?

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Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
The real airport security loophole is not passenger screening - it is airport workers. Baggage handlers, catering staff, cleaners, etc. If a bomb has to be smuggled on board the aircraft, who else but a cleaner/baggage handler to hide it away nicely?
Each and everyone goes through the security check be it a cleaner/Baggage handler or even a Pilot for that matter. Is it that the people who are carrying the security checks are booked and they allow to carry a Bomb?
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Old 20th May 2016, 12:48   #20
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
The real airport security loophole is not passenger screening - it is airport workers. Baggage handlers, catering staff, cleaners, etc. If a bomb has to be smuggled on board the aircraft, who else but a cleaner/baggage handler to hide it away nicely?
You are utterly and completely wrong. The Airport security is a theater. It does not work
Here is USA Airport security
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...?section=india

Quote:
In a series of trials, the Department of Homeland Security was able to smuggle fake explosives, weapons and other contraband past airport screeners in major cities across the country, according to ABC News. Officials briefed on the Homeland Security Inspector Generalís investigation told the station that the TSA failed 67 out of 70 tests conducted by the departmentís Red Teams ó undercover passengers tasked with identifying weaknesses in the screening process, NJ.com reports.
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In one test an undercover agent was stopped after setting off an alarm at a magnetometer, but TSA screeners failed to detect a fake explosive device that was taped to his back during a follow-on pat down.
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Old 20th May 2016, 13:52   #21
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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You are utterly and completely wrong. The Airport security is a theater. It does not work
Here is USA Airport security
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...?section=india
I think to be fair to KiloAlpha, the chink in the armour that he has highlighted just corroborates (actually supplements) with the Security Theater that you mention.

The fact is terrorists are irrational creatures, and security measures can perhaps deter one incident, but will never deter one from becoming a terrorist, therefore there will always be a steady supply of people ready to take risk and expose the "chinks" ...
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Old 20th May 2016, 14:25   #22
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

If a bomb did bring the plane down, the plane would disintegrate and there'd be a significant number of debris floating, right?

Same with if the plane disintegrated on impact (due to a plunge).

I understand that search operations, especially those over water, are an intensely difficult task but given the relatively small area to look at, isn't it rather strange that NO debris has been found yet?

The plane could have had a soft landing on water too then?
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Old 20th May 2016, 14:59   #23
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

Egypt's army spokesman said wreckage and passenger belongings were found 290km (180 miles) off the coast of Alexandria in Egypt.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36339614
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Old 20th May 2016, 15:50   #24
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

It was reported that the plane made some strange movements (first a 90-degree turn to the left, then 360-degrees to the right), while also losing altitude sharply. Would this have happened if a bomb had gone off onboard while in the air? To me, it sounds more like a plane falling out of the sky, out of control, due to some other issue. It would be good if pilots on the forum could comment on this.

EDIT: What if the bomb wasn't powerful enough to blow up the plane, but just enough to make it unflyable? I guess in that case, there could be some strange movement from the plane. Maybe a small bomb is also harder to detect?

Last edited by StarrySky : 20th May 2016 at 16:01.
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Old 20th May 2016, 15:57   #25
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
It would be good if pilots on the forum could comment on this.
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Originally Posted by Nempuguru View Post
First MH370, now MS804! How could such a big jets with latest tracking system, sensor, gizmos disappear suddenly without much distress signals? Is it really a worrying factor for aviation industry?
As of now, we are still getting unconfirmed news from a LOT of sources. So refraining from commenting. Once we have a official statement, we can proceed with discussions.

EDIT: I was in the pilot's briefing room an hour ago. Based on the rumor going around, our KCM privileges have been rescinded for some time.

Last edited by searchingheaven : 20th May 2016 at 16:05.
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Old 20th May 2016, 16:06   #26
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post

EDIT: I was in the pilot's briefing room an hour ago. Based on the rumor going around, our KCM privileges have been rescinded for some time.
Sorry if I sound silly, but what is KCM privilege?
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Old 20th May 2016, 16:15   #27
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
Sorry if I sound silly, but what is KCM privilege?
Nothing to be silly about. In fact, I should have cleared this earlier.

KCM stands for Known Crew Member. Basically, it is a program started by the TSA of US which allows airline pilots and crew members to skip the security checks that passengers usually go through. The officer matches your identification to your appearance and confirm your identity and current employment status via the KCM system. Once this is done, you will be permitted to board with no other screening or inspection of your person or property. It is possible, however, that you and property may be selected for random screening. And just FYI, I am randomly selected a lot of times. No prizes for guessing why.

Last edited by searchingheaven : 20th May 2016 at 16:17.
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Old 20th May 2016, 18:11   #28
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
What if the bomb wasn't powerful enough to blow up the plane, but just enough to make it unflyable? I guess in that case, there could be some strange movement from the plane. Maybe a small bomb is also harder to detect?
Am no pilot. But from drawing parallels with various air accidents in the past. Philippines Airlines 434 had exactly the same problem in the 90s. A bomb blew and severed hydraulics in that case I guess. They declared Mayday to Okinawa and landed safely.

Based on that, we should have seen a Mayday call from this. I think they also squawk 777, searchingheaven can confirm.

Regardless of the problem, the above should have happened. They are not in the middle of the ocean like Air France 447 happened.

Otherwise the pilots were simply taken by surprise of the problem, little time to react or were attacked (a-la Fedex 705, PSA 1771).

Egypt Air is getting a bad name for itself. A disputed crash (EgyptAir 990), hijacking earlier this year and now this!
--
searchingheaven, I've always seen crew clearing security every time in Europe. I remember in India they have priority. I even asked a Jet airways crew member in 2012 and he confirmed its not the case outside India. So am surprised to hear something like KCM in a country that faced 9/11 in a not too distant past
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Old 20th May 2016, 18:41   #29
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

KCM doesn't sound like a good idea in today's world. Far too many potential (and possibly fatal) downsides to what's ultimately nothing more than a time-saving convenience measure.

@searchingheaven: Do KCM measures save airlines a lot of time, even assuming all crew are allowed KCM privileges all the time? Enough advantages to offset occasional potential hazards?
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Old 20th May 2016, 19:26   #30
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Default re: Egypt Air 804 goes missing. EDIT: Debris found

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
I think they also squawk 777, searchingheaven can confirm.

searchingheaven, I've always seen crew clearing security every time in Europe. I remember in India they have priority. I even asked a Jet airways crew member in 2012 and he confirmed its not the case outside India. So am surprised to hear something like KCM in a country that faced 9/11 in a not too distant past
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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
@searchingheaven: Do KCM measures save airlines a lot of time, even assuming all crew are allowed KCM privileges all the time? Enough advantages to offset occasional potential hazards?
Commercial aircrafts can squawk any of the following code in an emergecy:
  • 7500 Hijack.
  • 7600 Communications failure.
  • 7700 emergency.
  • 7777 military intercept code.

As pilots, we really like KCM and yes it saves us a lot of time. I canít tell you how much my stress level goes down when I know thereís an operating KCM checkpoint. I actually feel like a pilot trusted with millions of dollars worth of equipment, instead of a threat. And TSA has implemented it to increase efficiency and reduce workload. TSA started the KCM in 2011 and till now there hasn't been a single incident of that sort. There are currently 45 air carriers with pilots using KCM, and 34 of those air carriers' flight attendants also use KCM. So I don't think that there is too much of a safety issue here.
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