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Old 16th January 2017, 22:44   #2071
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by KD007 View Post
Wife found some more old notes, is there still a process to change them or should I just forego it?
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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
Yes, 30.03.2017 for resident Indians. 30.06.2017 for NRI & PIO
Only for RI who where abroad during this window.
Quote:
Hundreds thronging the RBI office to exchange old Rs 500 and 1,000 notes returned empty handed as the central bank is allowing the facility only for NRIs or those who were abroad during the 50-day demonetisation period
http://www.outlookindia.com/newswire...-by-rbi/963713

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In contradiction to its earlier statement, the RBI issued a statement after December 30 deadline that only Indians who were abroad during November 9 to December 30, 2016 have been given a 3-month grace period till March 31 to deposit the junked notes, while for the NRIs, it is six months till June 30.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/wont-...-notes-1645255

Last edited by greenhorn : 16th January 2017 at 22:49.
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Old 16th January 2017, 23:01   #2072
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Yes, 30.03.2017 for resident Indians. 30.06.2017 for NRI & PIO
Sorry, I think you've got that wrong. Only those residents who have been outside India from nov 9th till dec 30th can exchange old notes now. See rbi website https://m.rbi.org.in/Scripts/FAQView.aspx?Id=122
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Old 17th January 2017, 01:09   #2073
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Whether demonetization is a success or not, only time will tell. So let's look at the other concern, the implementation efficiency.

The efficiency of any implementation primarily depends on two things:

1) Scale of Operation: If you try something with 1 person, you might achieve 100% results. Try the same for 100, you miss a few. Try the same for 1000, you might miss a hundred. Demonetization was an implementation that involved the entire population of the country. You will be lucky to get 50% things right. Size alone can undermine the efficiency by a large degree.

2) Amount of practice: If you try something complex for the first time without any practice, you can rarely get it right. Let's take something that involved similar scale, the Aadhar card rollout. When my parents got their card in 2013, the entire process was such a mess. Nobody knew what was happening and number of errors were staggering. So I refused to sign up. Finally I applied for Aadhar card in 2016 and it happened quite smoothly, as the processes had matured over 3 years and officials knew what they were doing. Demonetization came like a bolt from the blue, to both citizens and officials implementing it. Even the government/RBI/bank officials are caught up in this roller-coaster trying to figure out how to get it right, because nobody has had any practice in this until it happened. Lack of practice alone can undermine the efficiency by a large degree.

Demonetization was probably the largest scale implementation in history, and they had no practice at all. The product of both these factors, can only be even less efficiency. So I stopped worrying about the efficiency of demonetization long ago. No point chasing a mirage.
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Old 17th January 2017, 07:30   #2074
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

My worst fear about this whole exercise is that we will never find out the true impact. I am sure the government will exaggerate the figures and claim success while the opposition will call it a total flop. We, the citizens, will never know.
Also, what should the money recovered be used for?
Lowering income tax (raising the ceiling) only benefits those who have opted to pay taxes which are mainly people earning more than Rs. 25000 per month.
Does it really benefit the poor? Or does it improve the quality of life for all? This will be the true test. I have a a feeling the amount will be used in a way that will help re-election.
Wish the poor could get better schemes, healthcare and education are made better, infrastructure gets better, etc.
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Old 17th January 2017, 09:27   #2075
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Uttar Pradesh election is happening which is considered as next only to general election.
There are no major rallies or yatras this time.
No major advertisements in print and TV
No rush for tickets among political aspirants.
No 'noton ki malas'
Behenji talking about development not statues
1-2 opinion polls instead of min 10
All this points out to severe cash crunch in political system Now is this good or bad for the country which is famous for colorful elections, I am sure there will have two opinions. But to an average class person, this is a big welcome move.
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:02   #2076
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by freedom View Post
What we are forgetting is the huge impact this has had in limiting terrorism and Naxalites.
I don't know how many of us noticed it. Rioting in Kashmir has stopped for the last two months. Mind you, that is once place where riots can be organised pretty much in hours (after paying every one money). But nothing of that sort happened.
Naxals in Jharkhand & Orissa border etc. are now in hot soup. Their money has all gone kaput. And they too have not been able to organise one major strike/attack against the Demonetisation.

Demonetisation lasted for 50 days. There has not been large scale rioting or multi-day protest in any states. Why was not the opposition parties able to get all this done? Either they did not have money, or people were not convinced about their motives.

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I am sure the government will exaggerate the figures and claim success while the opposition will call it a total flop. We, the citizens, will never know. Also, what should the money recovered be used for?
My guess is that just few days before the budget, or during the budget the official figures from the RBI would be released. Off course opposition would make noises, but that would be the end of it. Budget is going to be tables on Feb 1st.

Most likely there would be good schemes targetting various stratas of society. There could be schemes launched (with UP given special preference) benefitting the real poor, for house building, bringing electricity etc. Such schemes may get linked with Aadhar (and banks).

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Lowering income tax (raising the ceiling) only benefits those who have opted to pay taxes which are mainly people earning more than Rs. 25000 per month.
The crowd who pays Income tax are not really very small. Think about it, when there were others who happily evaded tax, this was one group which did pay the tax dues on time (because they have no choice). Giving them a benefit would ensure that they would remain happy.

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Uttar Pradesh election is happening which is considered as next only to general election.
There are no major rallies or yatras this time.
May be a few days before the budget and elections. But I agree with you, the usual money play during elections seems to have come down.

Last edited by Samurai : 17th January 2017 at 11:08. Reason: Rule#13
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:10   #2077
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Please avoid discussing specific political parties or persons, it is in violation of Rule#13. - Support Team.
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:36   #2078
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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I don't know how many of us noticed it.
I'm sure people have, but It's probably because everybody is trying to survive somehow, that protesting becomes a second priority.

There is a joke about a doctor who leaves the clinic in the hands of his assistant, and comes back to find that he has cured a patient in the meanwhile. Apparently, the man had come in with sneezing.

Though they were out of cough syrup, the assistant had an idea and gave him a laxative. The doctor was taken aback. and shouted at the assistant.

The assistant retorts - "Where is his sneezing now?"

Of course there are no protests or huge rallies. But some of us would be of the opinion that there are better ways of achieving this!

Last edited by greenhorn : 17th January 2017 at 11:38.
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:52   #2079
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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But some of us would be of the opinion that there are better ways of achieving this!
Really, are there ways that doesn't suffer the problems mentioned here?
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:52   #2080
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by KD007 View Post

Wife found some more old notes, is there still a process to change them or should I just forego it?
There was a window given till March 31, 2017 for resident Indians' cases like yours, but (like many other changes, U-turns & flip-flops) this window was eventually shut (firmly!) without any (official) warning at all, at least for resident Indians.

So now your options have become very limited indeed:

--> 1) The best bet (& perhaps the only option!) for obtaining the face value of the now worthless paper is this -> search for anyone in your circle (draw this circle as wide as possible) of family, friends, colleagues etc. who has been abroad for the entire period between Nov. 8 & Dec. 30 and request them to exchange the notes for you.

If you do find manage to find such a person, he/she may already have plenty of notes of his/her own (& others as well) to exchange. So it may become necessary to offer help - offer a ride to the designated RBI office or (even partly) sponsor their travel/commute or accompany the person & stand in the queue for a while/get the person refreshments etc.

--> 2) Seeking/creating shortcuts & jugaads is a beloved way of life for Indians! Just ask the government & RBI - they initially expected/estimated that a sizeable quantity of the demonetised notes would never return, thereby grossly under-estimating the shortcut-creating & jugaad-seeking nature of their fellow citizens.

Those mentioned in the first option (i.e. resident Indians who were abroad during the period) will be in great demand for their services. So it's only natural that some of them may decide to make it (monetarily) worthwhile to help others.

I believe if you stand outside any of the 5 designated (for exchange) RBI offices, there will be a few (or at least one or two) everyday who may offer their services for a fee, or agents who make use of their services & canvass on their behalf (for an additional fee of their own).

Such fees are likely to be in the form of a percentage of the money exchanged for you, and the said % isn't likely to be low.

--> 3) Keep the notes as collectibles that can possibly(?) fetch a decent price several years down the line (maybe even decades or generations). But please beware! You would be (shockingly!) breaking the law if you retain more than Rs. 10,000 "worth" of the now worthless paper with you, and you're liable to be punished for this if the government finds out!

--> 4) Design & create or make objects out of the demonetised notes or by utilising 'em now worthless paper. Then sell the said products, either online or through offline methods.

I can provide one idea (among many possible ones) to create an everyday object that would act as a very worthy, crystal-clear reminder of the Great Indian Demonetisation Drive of 2016 - "entombing" the "dead" notes in solid glass! Yes, glass paperweights containing the notes shouldn't be that difficult to make and sell. In addition, if the note within the paperweight gains significant collectible value, the glass can be broken and the note can be sold!!!

--> 5) It's never a bad time to donate or to be charitable. Though it may sound like a stupid or even an uncouth idea, anonymously dropping one or more of the notes in different hundials of religious places and/or into collection boxes can be considered as an option. The ones who manage such boxes may be able to realise at least a part of the notes' face value, after all!

--> 6) If you're an animal lover, find a hungry cow & feed the poor creature. But before that, kindly remove the security threads from the notes, as they may not be made of a bovine digestible substance.

--> 7) Any combination of the above

Unfortunately, that is all I can think of, for now.

Last edited by RSR : 17th January 2017 at 12:20.
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:58   #2081
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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I'm sure people have, but It's probably because everybody is trying to survive somehow, that protesting becomes a second priority.
Hmm.. in that fight for survival, even that could have triggered riots, right? I mean if every one was in such a bad state that they cannot survive, there would be lots of cases of looting, arson and rioting. So either most of the people managed to salvage their situation during the initial days (with a fare bit of trouble) and the people who really were worried for their black money was rendered helpless. They themselves may not be capable material to do rioting, and they also could not arrange others for that.

Quote:
Of course there are no protests or huge rallies. But some of us would be of the opinion that there are better ways of achieving this!
I agree, that there could be better ways. But then I really did not see any article offering a different way to do this. Every economist (who were biased as well) only focused on why the current scheme would/should fail, with no concrete alternative suggested. Do post some links to alternate views on how this whole move could be carried out. I may have missed out such news reports.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:04   #2082
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Vegetable farmers don't have to pay tax, so why is this reluctance? It is the middlemen who are reluctant, since they are liable for tax. The middlemen collect the produce from the farmers and supply it to the grocery shops. They also make the most profit in this chain. When demonetization happen, it was the middlemen who couldn't buy from the farmers for lack of cash and let the vegetables rot all around the country. Therefore, farmers are suffering all over the country.

Yet I don't see anybody holding middlemen accountable. Blame is entirely being shifted to Government for not providing cash for these middlemen to continue tax evasion.
What did banning of 1000 & 500 notes do to these middlemen? Did it change them? Affect them?
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Originally Posted by freedom View Post
I can't remember if any other govt change that was ever implemented so successfully and so rapidly.
What is the result of this success?
(PS: Some people here mentioned they are carrying less number of notes in their wallet & use more online transfers. Is that it, the whole effort of 50 days to promote internet, mobile banking & shopping?)
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Originally Posted by BenjiRoss View Post
Also, what should the money recovered be used for?
Money recovered? The cost of demonetization is probably 3 times the (any perceived) benefit from it. If there is no benefit, it is all loss.
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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I don't know how many of us noticed it. Rioting in Kashmir has stopped for the last two months.
Is it? Cash crunch doesn't differentiate between legal & illegal activities. Illegal economic activity has stopped. Imagine the impact on legal economic activity.
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Demonetization was probably the largest scale implementation in history, and they had no practice at all.
Demonetization has been tried before in India & other countries. So there is a precedence. Yes, the current team didn't have practice. But they neither consulted the experts nor analyzed the impact. We want our Govt to win like Arjuna, not get stuck like Abhimanyu, whose claim to glory is he was just brave enough to attempt it.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:16   #2083
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Really, are there ways that doesn't suffer the problems mentioned here?
At least for reducing the rallies and all this election related nonsense, bringing some accountability and traceability for political funding would have made a huge difference. Right now the govt controls all the monetary channels, and obviously the opposition parties find themselves shut out. Occasionally a stray ruling party member (usually one of the smaller fish) also gets caught in the net.

Last edited by greenhorn : 17th January 2017 at 12:28.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:24   #2084
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Hmm.. in that fight for survival, even that could have triggered riots, right? I mean if every one was in such a bad state that they cannot survive, there would be lots of cases of looting, arson and rioting. So either most of the people managed to salvage their situation during the initial days (with a fare bit of trouble) and the people who really were worried for their black money was rendered helpless. They themselves may not be capable material to do rioting, and they also could not arrange others for that.


I agree, that there could be better ways. But then I really did not see any article offering a different way to do this. Every economist (who were biased as well) only focused on why the current scheme would/should fail, with no concrete alternative suggested. Do post some links to alternate views on how this whole move could be carried out. I may have missed out such news reports.

What about the real slim shady who proposed it in the first place?

http://www.arthakranti.org/proposal

http://arthakranti.org/proposal/implementation

With an endorsement by the man himself who went ahead and ignored the approach.

http://arthakranti.org/proposal/endorsements

As you said, rioting and looting are mostly incited with either religion or money. The people who are standing in the queues are not the ones who are employed by the Acme Riot agency. They may well be worried about their black money, but the majority of the people who have been made into beggars for their own money are peacefully resigned still, like they were before. They were unforgiving in 2014. Who knows what they will do in the coming few "events".
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:30   #2085
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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. Do post some links to alternate views on how this whole move could be carried out.
Here's an alternate view how they could have achieved what they have (I think the only achievement is that almost all of 500/1000 notes are in the Banks now)

So if the objective was to get all the 500/1000 notes back and to demonetize then, then they could just have announced the same giving a longer window, say 1 year or 2 years after which these notes would be invalid. No need to introduce 2000 rupee note which is frankly an abomination. Gradually prepare people for digitization. For example, govt shouldn't be paying salaries or pensions in cash (which it was doing). Rationalize taxes in this time period. Bring a law against high value cash purchases or have a tax , say 5% on cash payments beyond a certain limit (this to be applicable after a certain period to allow people to acquire digital tools for transactions) etc etc.

I think the intention to promote digital payments is very good as customers should have a choice while making payments. So far mostly we did not have that, that's why there was so much of cash usage. But things can only change gradually. It remains to be seen if this shock therapy would be a success or a grand failure. It's too early to pass a verdict right now.
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