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Old 17th January 2017, 21:37   #2116
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by JLS View Post
I would love to see any single example of an election result in a good size democracy, where in a single party has won with a clear majority, i.e. getting more than 50% of ALL eligible voters.

If there is no such example, or only extremely few cases, it would mean that hardly any democratically elected government has got peoples mandate. And that any government, which had taken a bold step, and caused either miniscule or major difficulties to people - HAD MISUSED the constitutional mandate.
All the US presidential elections, except 5, in the past 2 centuries had majority votes for winners. Almost all other presidential systems too has similar majority votes for winners. eg: France. Both France and US are bulwarks of democracy.

It is only in parliamentary system, the majority for the winners is rare. India has never had a govt with majority votes. The fact that India never had a majority govt doesnt mean that govt can claim majority support for their policies, because they simply dont have majority support.

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Anyways, I know this argument of peoples mandate v/s constitutional mandate is only used to attack and defame government of different political ideology. This argument never comes out otherwise.
You couldnt be more wrong. The word 'popular mandate' is actually used by governments to give legitimacy to their policies. All our PMs till date has (mis)used that word to claim majority popular support for their policies. The recent example is demonetisation.

What I want to say is this - plan and implement whatever policy the govt feels appropriate, but never claim majority support for their policies.

PS: Since all PMs till now have misused the word 'political mandate', you can be rest assured that I dont intend to "attack and defame government of different political ideology", because then I will be attacking and defaming the entire political spectrum.

Last edited by deerhunter : 17th January 2017 at 21:45.
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Old 17th January 2017, 21:40   #2117
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You nailed it perfectly.

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Originally Posted by JLS View Post
Anyways, I know this argument of peoples mandate v/s constitutional mandate is only used to attack and defame government of different political ideology. This argument never comes out otherwise.
There has to be first time and this Govt which is the first Govt to get clear majority in three decades IIRC has taken the Demonetisation step without considering elections, infact to get them votes even the wave created after Surgical Strikes was enough. Why the know-all pundits are rattled is coz the man is keeping one-upmanship in all the steps.

The public has also tried certain party in Delhi for the first time so its an ongoing phenomenon.
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:43   #2118
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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I would love to see any single example of an election result in a good size democracy, where in a single party has won with a clear majority, i.e. getting more than 50% of ALL eligible voters.
This can only happen in a pseudo-democracy (like N Korea), or a hard core two party state. Elsewhere there is enough fragmentation to ensure that the winner does not cross 50%. I do not think we have crossed 50% except maybe in the elections immediately after the Emergency or after the Indira assassination. Even here I have my doubts.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:06   #2119
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Regarding probability of not knowing in 50 days about the policy, well if someone is managing to live in complete oblivion, cut out from the everyday life, he/she probably don't need (or don't have) 500/1000 rupee notes with them. Else, RBI still accepting old currency.
Read back a few pages, and you can see the RBI isn't accepting old currency from resident Indians. As for deciding to state that someone living in isolation does not need to have money on them... what makes anyone an authority to say that?
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:06   #2120
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

In a multi party democracy, there can't be an absolute people'e mandate for a single party. Let's just agree that the current Govt got more "Ayes" than "nayes" and thus have constitutional as well as "major voter consensus" for them.

This is much better than some of the previous cases of "mili-juli sarkar" where small political parties with not even 10% of seats (forget about constitutional mandate or people mandate) came together to form Govt, and ruled India like it belonged to them.

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Read back a few pages, and you can see the RBI isn't accepting old currency from resident Indians. As for deciding to state that someone living in isolation does not need to have money on them... what makes anyone an authority to say that?
Ok, I stand corrected then. I read somewhere that RBI will keep on accepting old currency notes with Credible reasons on why the notes were not converted before.

Of the second part, no one has any authority to say anything (no one has any authority to ask me about my authority too, isn't it?) , this is a debate and people are putting their own views and opinions.

Last edited by Nav-i-gator : 18th January 2017 at 10:11.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:19   #2121
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post


Ok, I stand corrected then. I read somewhere that RBI will keep on accepting old currency notes with Credible reasons on why the notes were not converted before.

You, a well educated, internet enabled person who is actively participating in a discussion about demonetization does not know about the mess at the RBI with regard to citizens/PIO/NRI/OCIs and you still will not believe that a pensioner who lives in isolation may not be aware of the whole shindig?
Oh, the humanity!!
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:20   #2122
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Ok, I stand corrected then. I read somewhere that RBI will keep on accepting old currency notes with Credible reasons on why the notes were not converted before.
Considering how the goal-posts have conveniently changed every few days, whats ok today, won't be tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Of the second part, no one has any authority to say anything (no one has any authority to ask me about my authority too, isn't it?) , this is a debate and people are putting their own views and opinions.
This is what you said:
Quote:
if someone is managing to live in complete oblivion, cut out from the everyday life, he/she probably don't need (or don't have) 500/1000 rupee notes with them.
You mentioned they don't need money on them, or don't have money on them, like you knew their circumstances. You are free to voice your opinions just like your statement about RBI still accepting old notes, but ofcourse, you didnt verify if first.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:53   #2123
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Considering how the goal-posts have conveniently changed every few days, whats ok today, won't be tomorrow.



This is what you said:


You mentioned they don't need money on them, or don't have money on them, like you knew their circumstances. You are free to voice your opinions just like your statement about RBI still accepting old notes, but ofcourse, you didnt verify if first.
Buddy, If one can live for 50 days straight out, without coming out of home, without needing to spend any money and without having to go to any shop to buy something - what would you deduce? Either he/she is an apocalypse believing freak (having stuffed up his/her bunker with months full of supplies) or just don't need/have money for living. 50 days!!
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:01   #2124
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by benbsb29 View Post
Considering how the goal-posts have conveniently changed every few days, whats ok today, won't be tomorrow.

This is what you said:

You mentioned they don't need money on them, or don't have money on them, like you knew their circumstances. You are free to voice your opinions just like your statement about RBI still accepting old notes, but ofcourse, you didnt verify if first.
The Goal posts had to be changed. The responses had to be dynamic. Also, there was no model / past data to work with.

Why, nobody vectored in ATM mules. As soon as finger marking started the queues mysteriously vanished. Our bank managers, jewellers, and many others did their best / worst and sold their souls for a few coppers.

Nobody thought about the issues of the changed size (esp thickness) of the new currency. Tricky as it count not have been vectored in with the need for secrecy. What did our politicos and professionals want - a three day (even one would have done) notice!

Last edited by sgiitk : 18th January 2017 at 11:04.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:04   #2125
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Buddy, If one can live for 50 days straight out, without coming out of home, without needing to spend any money and without having to go to any shop to buy something - what would you deduce? Either he/she is an apocalypse believing freak (having stuffed up his/her bunker with months full of supplies) or just don't need/have money for living. 50 days!!
When I was in kerala, there were plenty of folks like that.
Examples -
parents whose kids were actively trying to con them out of their property/ savings and then kick them out
folks trying to avoid confidence tricksters
people who have lost money in bank/mfi collapses earlier
Older people with slight dementia, and no children, who don't want to give up their property.
Older couples with agricultural land, far away from markets, who stock up on essentials only now and then, and live off the land.
Not everybody is as connected as we are
Quote:
The Goal posts had to be changed.
The pricinple that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer - seems to be a casualty of this exercise, and the whole principle has been turned around. Now, in order to catch the one guilty person, 10 innocent people are being made to suffer. The govt or the RBI can cry wolf only so many times before its credibility is lost. Such Machiavellian tactics by a govt against its own citizens were not really required, when the same could have been achieved by much less disruptive methods.

Last edited by greenhorn : 18th January 2017 at 11:15.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:11   #2126
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

The level of 'I don't see it so it probably doesn't exist' ignorance on this thread never ceases to amaze me.

There are parts of this country that still don't have proper utilities or road/rail/air connectivity, and communities are forced to maintain self-sufficiency because they have no choice, and consequently it isn't unbelievable they don't feel the necessity to interact with the mainstream as often as we do. Just because we aren't one of them and they aren't a significant chunk of the population, doesn't give us a right to judge them or worse, dismiss them as minor unavoidable collateral damage.

I'm sure they'll have a few choice words for urban yuppies like us too , given how the educated good folk here are resorting to name-calling, for someone who can't respond for themselves.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 18th January 2017 at 11:12.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:14   #2127
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
When I was in kerala, there were plenty of folks like that.
Examples -
parents whose kids were actively trying to con them out of their property/ savings and then kick them out
folks trying to avoid confidence tricksters
people who have lost money in bank/mfi collapses earlier
Older people with slight dementia, and no children, who don't want to give up their property.
Older couples with agricultural land, far away from markets, who stock up on essentials only now and then, and live off the land.
Not everybody is as connected as we are
And I thought Kerala with highest literacy rate and better per capita income should be much better equipped.

Maybe I am skeptical, but apart from the last one (old couple with agricultural land, living off the farm produce - we call it Self sustaining farming in technical terms), none others seem plausible for continuous 50 days not even coming to know of the remonetization exercise going on. Esp when every TV channel, every radio channel and every newspaper was crying out loud about it.

And if such people exist, what else would a govt can do to let them know? Isn't state govt more responsible for it than central govt? Many such people would still be living in oblivion, still not knowing what went by in past 2 months odd...

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
The level of 'I don't see it so it probably doesn't exist' ignorance on this thread never ceases to amaze me.

There are parts of this country that still don't have proper utilities or road/rail/air connectivity, and communities are forced to maintain self-sufficiency because they have no choice, and consequently it isn't unbelievable they don't feel the necessity to interact with the mainstream as often as we do. Just because we aren't one of them and they aren't a significant chunk of the population, doesn't give us a right to judge them or worse, dismiss them as minor unavoidable collateral damage.

I'm sure they'll have a few choice words for urban yuppies like us too , given how the educated good folk here are resorting to name-calling, for someone who can't respond for themselves.
It's not like that, sir. There are people like this, no one is denying that. What need to be questioned is -Why such people still exist, without basic amenities, without access to mainstream, without access to banking services? With 70 years of ruling, residing on vote bank of such people, doling out subsidies and freebies for exactly such people. It is the collective failure of all Govts. so far. Why no one before this Govt tried to open bank accounts for poor? Why no one before this Govt tried direct benefits transfer of subsidies to bank accounts? Why no one before tried to give cheap insurance cover to all poor? Why successive govts. kept on keeping them poor for their votes? And are still doing it? Using poor as a cover to oppose any govt move is counterproductive.

A jolt is needed to revive a dying body. It might be painful, and it is not a guaranteed success nevertheless. But one need to try.

Last edited by Nav-i-gator : 18th January 2017 at 11:25.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:35   #2128
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
....With 70 years of ruling, residing on vote bank of such people, doling out subsidies and freebies for exactly such people. It is the collective failure of all Govts. so far. Why no one before this Govt tried to open bank accounts for poor? Why no one before this Govt tried direct benefits transfer of subsidies to bank accounts? Why no one before tried to give cheap insurance cover to all poor? Why successive govts. kept on keeping them poor for their votes? And are still doing it?......
This will only end in infractions or bans for both of us for discussing politics, so best not to go there.

Suffices to say as much as it's fashionable (and justifiable to an extent) to blame a certain political party for everything that's wrong with this country, they're all cut from the same cloth.

As much as people would like to believe it, the current party in power didn't come into existence with the current PM in 2014, and every single wrongdoing bandied about politics applies to every single party out there, all previous state & national iterations included. No exceptions. One swallow doesn't make a summer.

I've voted NOTA for as long as I can remember, so I can honestly say I've no interest in taking sides with any of them, but let's not go about rewriting history please.

Let's leave the politics out of this for all our sakes.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:43   #2129
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
This will only end in infractions or bans for both of us for discussing politics, so best not to go there.

Suffices to say as much as it's fashionable (and justifiable to an extent) to blame a certain political party for everything that's wrong with this country, they're all cut from the same cloth.

As much as people would like to believe it, the current party in power didn't come into existence with the current PM in 2014, and every single wrongdoing bandied about politics applies to every single party out there, all previous state & national iterations included. No exceptions. One swallow doesn't make a summer.

I've voted NOTA for as long as I can remember, so I can honestly say I've no interest in taking sides with any of them, but let's not go about rewriting history please.

Let's leave the politics out of this for all our sakes.
I am not taking "political sides", just taking policies into perspective. Better to do something about it than just talking about it. I said this Govt against ALL previous ones (including the ones by same political party too).


The poverty in India have to be eradicated, and we should stop romanticizing about the poor. I also come from village (Himalayan one, near to China border - one of the most backward places) and have lived most of my early days in UP as well. The way we talk about poor, villages etc is more of a hogwash than reality. Villages are still portrayed as pristine, full of honest people with high moral standards and cities as just opposite. Go and visit any village and live there for some days, you would be surprised by the malaise and prejudices village communities have, and how much closer to cities they are in terms of modern influences (courtesy bollywood).
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:46   #2130
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by JLS
Anyways, I know this argument of peoples mandate v/s constitutional mandate is only used to attack and defame government of different political ideology.
Tend to agree with you. This entire silly excuse that the "ruling government only got x% of votes, so x-100% of voters were actually against them" only came after 2014. I have never heard it before. It was assumed that who ever gets a majority in Lok Sabha, forms the government of the day. Even if CPI who currently has one MP in Lok Sabha manages to get 240+ seats in the next round of elections they can (and should) form the government.

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Originally Posted by deerhunter
Almost all other presidential systems too has similar majority votes for winners. eg: France. Both France and US are bulwarks of democracy.
We are actually apeing the British democracy which is Parliamentary Democracy and pretty much follows all the British format. They have a queen, we have a President. Where as the USA has a totally different way of doing things. Their President is much more powerful, where as our Presidents for quite some times were considered to be rubber stamps. So the way US counts the votes, and how India (and UK) counts the votes are different.

Quote:
The word 'popular mandate' is actually used by governments to give legitimacy to their policies.
Here it is better to infer that 'popular mandate' = majority of the voters electing candidates from a specific party (which means they have faith in that party and has given them the mandate to rule). Individually how much vote %-age these candidates got, or what is their winning margin then becomes immaterial.

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Originally Posted by benbsb29
Considering how the goal-posts have conveniently changed every few days, whats ok today, won't be tomorrow.
This being a huge excercise the yard sticks and measuring posts would have to change. If the "goal post" was that new currency would only be released after the old currency comes back completely, do you feel it would work out? Consider this as fighting a war. Have you ever heard of a General who had a complete plan firmly written down and executed to a T? It is just not possible, because the opponents wont be sitting ducks. To be frank now I am really scared of some other country attacking us. The media and the leftist liberals may expect the Indian Army to share the complete war plan, troop movements and then even get their approvals before sending the first soldier out to fight the war. And when we lose that, the same media and leftist liberals would blame the Army (and the government of the day).

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Originally Posted by greenhorn
The pricinple that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer - seems to be a casualty of this exercise
That is an excellent principle to believe in. People should be allowed to dodge tax, gleefully cheat the government and also gloat about it. People should be encouraged to hoard money and cheat an honest person. This principle is essentially flawed to support any guilty person. And I am sure we Indians would misuse this. And yes if there were lots of innocents suffering the country would have seen major riots now. There have been riots for far more simpler things.

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator
It might be painful, and it is not a guaranteed success nevertheless. But one need to try.
.No sir, it is not like that. India is destined to be ruled by certain families for ever. We should all be thankful that these families take care of like lordships treaing their serfs. We should also encourage every body to dodge taxes, and come up with excuses for why some thing should NOT be done. We should continue to blame the British for all our problems even today, but then also expect them to give us "good job certificates" and "pat on the back" through some awards etc. When the rest of the world moves on, we would all have to still gloat about past glories (and how pretty much every other country have managed to rule over us).
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