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Old 20th January 2017, 16:51   #2221
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

I'm sticking to 'traditional' cashless channels for the time being. ICICI's App is pretty mature and includes UPI services. Credit cards and PayTM work just fine for in-person/online and recurring petty transactions respectively.

Staying away from new-fangled contraptions until they're out of 'public beta'. I have no appetite to go chasing after non-existent customer support.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 20th January 2017 at 16:54.
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Old 20th January 2017, 17:07   #2222
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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This was and is my biggest worry about jumping into the cashless bandwagon, especially with the 'sarkari' tools. The apps have been hurriedly pushed into the world with a questionable amount of preparation and will take some sacrifices along the way.
I am too wary of any government and even public sector apps. They have questionable quality levels and security is very lax. I am sticking to private sector bank apps which have much better implementation.

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My friend - You seem to be hell bent on claiming that the demonetization is a success
Really? I thought I was saying that only time will tell, and we should wait at least a year before passing judgment.

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Good luck with your beliefs and for your sake, and for the sake of this country, I hope that you're right and I'm wrong.
Oh, you think it is a belief. No, I am not a believer. I didn't even vote for this government. I merely analyse the demonetization process from an economics perspective. I regularly posted on our Economics thread too, this is not a new hobby I picked up after Nov 8.
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Old 20th January 2017, 17:34   #2223
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Oh, so corrupt departments can be cleaned up without removing cash economy. I like to hear your ideas on that.
Protect and encourage whistle blowers. Don't make it impossible to investigate/prosecute corrupt officials. Fill up Lokpal and other watchdog vacancies and give them real power. Keep tax code/laws very simple. Make some exemplary convictions in corruption related cases - I mean enough talk, put some *&%$^ guys in the prison, will you!

I am not talking about corruption in politics which is a bigger monster (solutions exist for that as well).

Please come out of that cashless economy myth. For all practical purposes, the cash economy is fully restored and it is business as usual like pre-Nov 8. Yes, they will use big data and collect big bribes.
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Old 20th January 2017, 17:53   #2224
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Protect and encourage whistle blowers. Don't make it impossible to investigate/prosecute corrupt officials. Fill up Lokpal and other watchdog vacancies and give them real power. Keep tax code/laws very simple. Make some exemplary convictions in corruption related cases - I mean enough talk, put some *&%$^ guys in the prison, will you!
If this is so simple to do, why none of the governments have tried this?

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Please come out of that cashless economy myth.
Cashless economy one way to get control over money supply. The other way is everybody turning honest and report every cash transaction, and pay taxes. One of them is more practical, take your pick.

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For all practical purposes, the cash economy is fully restored and it is business as usual like pre-Nov 8. Yes, they will use big data and collect big bribes.
Yes, that might happen if they restore all the currency back to earlier volume. That will completely defeat the demonetization process. That is why I want to wait for an year before passing judgment.
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Old 20th January 2017, 18:01   #2225
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

I think we need to have someone heading the government who will say, its enough. We will clean everything starting from politicians. I dont think we will ever get someone like that or we will like one like that.

Until then, its all half measures. Selective cleaning and targetted actions wont get the expected result. Politics will be corrupt and so will common man whenever he gets an opportunity to do so.

Last edited by srishiva : 20th January 2017 at 18:04.
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Old 20th January 2017, 18:23   #2226
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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If this is so simple to do, why none of the governments have tried this?
That would be a real fix and self annihilation, why would they do that? They only want to pretend-fix. You asked for how corrupt departments can be fixed without demonetisation and I offered a response. Demonetisation alone doesn't fix corruption, period. In fact, I dread what bribe they would ask if people can't offer simple cash bribe.

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Cashless economy one way to get control over money supply. The other way is everybody turning honest and report every cash transaction, and pay taxes. One of them is more practical, take your pick.
We all get it. Just trying to tell you that there is no cashless economy ever envisioned. The brief interruption in cash supply caused by printing factory backlog has been flipped as a push for cashless economy. PayTM became a household name but I'd feel sorry for them if they have invested in extra capacity.

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Yes, that might happen if they restore all the currency back to earlier volume. That will completely defeat the demonetization process. That is why I want to wait for an year before passing judgment.
Why wait when they have already restored 9+ lakh crores which is sufficient to smoothly transact in black as before. At best, previously fully legit cash transactions will move to fully legit digital transactions. The show is over as far as cashless economy is concerned.

I agree with you about the waiting part, just to see if they actually do something with the data they got and follow it up with other measures to catch people with illegal income. We all read about raids, but how come we never read about people going to prison? What happens after the raid?

Last edited by androdev : 20th January 2017 at 18:27.
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Old 20th January 2017, 18:44   #2227
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If this is so simple to do, why none of the governments have tried this?..........
No offense intended, but to quote your own good self on the topic, it's that damned principal-agent problem at work!

While the current govt. has shown it's not averse to taking bold & disruptive decisions, no legislation targeting the 'servants of the nation' will ever get past conception, if even that. Would be great to be proven wrong on this, but won't be holding my breath.

The current initiative has amply demonstrated that while the system may lack finesse and precision (scale does that to a large extent), it has plenty of 'go' if something needs to get done. Whether they'll ever turn that 'go' loose against themselves is a question that's best categorized under 'rhetorical'.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 20th January 2017 at 18:54.
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Old 20th January 2017, 19:17   #2228
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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No offense intended, but to quote your own good self on the topic, it's that damned principal-agent problem at work!
Exactly, that is why I was wondering how he suggested it.

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While the current govt. has shown it's not averse to taking bold & disruptive decisions, no legislation targeting the 'servants of the nation' will ever get past conception, if even that.
Yup, that is why nothing ever worked to fix corruption.

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The current initiative has amply demonstrated that while the system may lack finesse and precision, it has plenty of 'go' if something needs to get done.
This is the main reason why most of the public supported demonetization despite apprehension. For once somebody was doing something drastic without worrying about self-preservation. If demonetization fails, it will be the greatest failure of this government, it will be a political suicide. We all will remember it forever. Besides, it has a sound economic basis, and it is possible it might work. I know, depending on their political bias, economists are divided on this point, highlighting only pros or cons. Fortunately, economics is not some ancient concept written in some alien script that only economists can interpret. Any of us who has studied macro economics can decipher the pros/cons of demonetization.

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That would be a real fix and self annihilation, why would they do that? They only want to pretend-fix. You asked for how corrupt departments can be fixed without demonetisation and I offered a response.
Well, I hoping for a practical solution.

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Demonetisation alone doesn't fix corruption, period. In fact, I dread what bribe they would ask if people can't offer simple cash bribe.
Who said it does? Currently, cash is the main instrument of bribery. Although somebody earlier was suggesting favours, it severely lacks liquidity. The instrument of corruption must have instant liquidity, otherwise it becomes very difficult to transact.

I have addressed this a month ago:
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Since bribe is paid always in cash, lack of large denominations will highly affect the current system of corruption. Will it reduce corruption, it is not clear yet. All the government offices are now demanding bribe in new bills. So approvals are getting delayed a lot, as people don't have enough new bills to pay them. This situation can't go on for long, unlike a Mexican standoff something will happen. Frankly, I don't know how the chips will fall. If bribery becomes very difficult, it will naturally reduce it. But there is a black economy in digital world too. Just like how drugs are sold via Darkweb, even bribery may go into Darkweb. A new breed of digital middlemen may emerge to make this possible.
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Old 20th January 2017, 20:18   #2229
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Well, I hoping for a practical solution.
Which of the options I listed are not practical? You asked why the government doesn't implement them. I said because it would hurt them the most because they are corrupt. The options I listed are widely used in mature democracies. What happened to VW in the US? What happened to AgustaWestland in Italy? What happened here in both the cases?

Now that I am offering you real democratic, institutional solutions to deal with corruption, you are brushing them off as impractical and going back to your no-cash no-corruption myth.

Does anyone remember who conceived RTI Act, when and how it happened, how much national debate happened around it? But it has a profound and far-reaching implications on corruption in high places. In contrast, there is terabytes of internet discussions and hours of TV debates and so on for this Rs.1000 to Rs.2000 conversion which will soon be forgotten as a wishful thinking. As someone mentioned in this thread earlier, real change like good health is ever so slow.
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Old 20th January 2017, 20:41   #2230
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Which of the options I listed are not practical? You asked why the government doesn't implement them. I said because it would hurt them the most because they are corrupt.
You answered yourself that they are not practical.

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The options I listed are widely used in mature democracies. What happened to VW in the US? What happened to AgustaWestland in Italy? What happened here in both the cases?
Corruption is deeply rooted at every level in India. You can't take examples for countries where corruption is not so widely spread.

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Now that I am offering you real democratic, institutional solutions to deal with corruption, you are brushing them off as impractical
Well, they are impractical. Telling corrupt people to fix corruption never works. Most of them joined up because of the opportunities for making money via corruption. The only practical means are removing opportunities and instruments of corruption. People won't change, you just have to make it difficult.

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and going back to your no-cash no-corruption myth.
You still unable to understand this point. Cash is the chief instrument of corruption due to the liquidity. Making it scarce, makes it difficult to transact.

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In contrast, there is terabytes of internet discussions and hours of TV debates and so on for this Rs.1000 to Rs.2000 conversion which will soon be forgotten as a wishful thinking.
They said the same thing about RTI too.
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Old 20th January 2017, 21:48   #2231
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You answered yourself that they are not practical.
You asked for options outside of demonetisation and I have offered a handful of good ones. You are not really offering an intelligent counter argument here.

I never said they are not practical, it is your view point. I said such measures would hurt the people in power hence lack the motivation. But each regime has brought in policies like RTI, GST, etc. that address corruption in very profound way. Previous RBI governor took all the Banks to task to fix the NPAs and we are seeing consequences of it. That is the beauty of democracy, it is slow but self-correcting.

If you are refusing to accept there are other options outside of demonitisaton, then we can just leave it at that.

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Corruption is deeply rooted at every level in India. You can't take examples for countries where corruption is not so widely spread.
People are corrupt to the extent they feel they can get away with it. Lot of South East Asian countries managed to make rapid recovery from deeply entrenched corruption

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You still unable to understand this point. Cash is the chief instrument of corruption due to the liquidity. Making it scarce, makes it difficult to transact.
All you need is just a shell company to go digital. Please go past the "traffic cop bribe" level and you will stop this no-cash no-bribe argument. Even traffic cop will ask you to buy a book from www.honestbooks.com for Rs 500 using PayTM.
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Old 20th January 2017, 23:20   #2232
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Absolutely tasteless party rant of the paytm CEO, granted even this will find its share of defenders and people who've no problem with it, after all it was a private inside moment in a company party which shouldn't have been leaked in the first place, but I see it differently.

"Jo humare saath nahi hain woh royenge" translated "those who aren't with us will cry" really?

Which rant is complete without a tasteless profanity in either Hindi or English, of course this man used both.. the F words and um B words have so much impact after all!!!!

I don't get it, I'm mortified with the way people simply do a 180 when they're out of their business suits, of course the line is disappearing every so slightly every day and there isn't an ounce of professional behavior to be found these days. There was a time when elegance and an air of superiority used to be the nature of a professional businessman, because of which they restrained themselves at all times, even in the face of massive successes.. gone are those times. The only businessman of Indian origin I've admired is Azim Premji, and his son Rishad is quite the same, we don't know much about them but that is the best part.. they neither party nor hog the televisions or interviews sharing what would become unnecessary personal opinions.

As for PayTM, never used it, never will, not for the reasons as above but just because like a few other members here, I do not trust digital even a fraction percent. The rant is just symptomatic of a reaction to a success that was never expected, graceful acceptance is no more the norm since the 00's.
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Old 21st January 2017, 01:19   #2233
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Samurai - you're very argumentative. It's your viewpoint v/s those of others. I hope someday you learn that the other persons viewpoint matters as well.

Anyways, enough said for now. Signing off this futile debate since you're absolutely unwilling to entertain an alternative viewpoint.
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Old 21st January 2017, 02:41   #2234
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Samurai - you're very argumentative. It's your viewpoint v/s those of others. I hope someday you learn that the other persons viewpoint matters as well.

Anyways, enough said for now. Signing off this futile debate since you're absolutely unwilling to entertain an alternative viewpoint.
If anyone can articulate their viewpoint, it doesn't make that person aurgumentative.

Try a bit harder, pour your point across.

Aristotle said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to*entertain a thought without accepting*it."
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Old 21st January 2017, 11:27   #2235
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I stopped posting on this thread over a month ago, but have visited it on and off for the occasional entertainment which it certainly provides.

It is very visible that here, as in the rest of the country, for all that it has or has not done, demonetisation has definitely provided the smoke and confusion to obscure the real issue that faces the country, the elephant in the room: What is being done to create the approximately 250 million new and genuinely value adding jobs that will be needed by about 2025-30? On the success of that effort will hinge the social unrest potential from the corresponding number of young people if they don't have something useful and constructive to do, that also brings them the commensurate rewards and benefits of growth. And to do this without completely destroying the environment. India collectively seems to have taken its eyes of this ball completely these days. The IT industry today employs a very small fraction of this number and manufacturing growth is jobless for some time now, so neither sector looks like being able to contribute to the solution.

I appreciate that this may be off topic to this thread except tangentially.
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