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Old 14th June 2017, 18:16   #2416
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

The entire farm situation is a volcano waiting to explode. There is enough production to feed everyone even with antiquated farming practices, but with half the working population to support on its 15% of GDP as output, there isn't enough money in it for anyone to be comfortable, let alone prosper. Obviously there are outliers, but this applies to the large majority.

And if the surplus labour is released to improve productivity, where will those people go to earn a living in a economy with jobless growth?

Loan waivers aren't the solution; just the only response that every government seems to be able to come up with. If this happens in a year of abundant rains and record output, what happens in bad years?

I don't know rural India; but I sense there is a lot there to be very concerned about.
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Old 14th June 2017, 18:41   #2417
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Its coffee smelling time for more people.
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
And on loan waivers,
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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Loan waiver I feel is a neat little bomb
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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
The opposition in a democracy will point out and take advantage of the situation when one poll bound state gets a waiver and the rest are left to fend for themselves.
One of the most frustrating thing for me is the fact that the government gives in to the hadtaals.
I was quite happy when demonetization happened, even though I lost around 5k worth of old currency which I found after the cut off date. Happy that the tax net is being widened, more people coming under IT scanner, etc etc.

But then 6 months after the cut off, there is still no data come out on how much did the nation gain from the currency ban.
I am still paying (deducted at source) the same % of direct taxes, and will end up paying more indirect taxes post 1st July.
People & businesses have gone back to cash only mode like demonetization never happened. They do not pay a penny as tax on these cash transactions.
And then loan waivers, seriously?
We already paid 4-5x for the veggies during the hadtaal, after getting the tax deducted salary. Now from the tax we paid, you waive loans? Whose's going to waive my loans which I am paying through my nose, diligently, month after month, without missing a single installment. I borrowed knowing I can repay, so did the bank who lent me, and I do that.

If someone can compile total loan waivers in the last 5 years and divide that by the tax paying population, the result will be disheartening to say the least. Corruption figures are a totally different picture. I am aware that indirect taxes also share our burden, but still.

Net net, the only income which has no scope of evading tax is the income from Salary, and government will do nothing to ease the burden. Rather, they are looking at milking them more.

Sorry for the rant, but I genuinely feel let down, yet again, by the government.
I would probably be paying a total of 50% (probably more) of my income in Direct and Indirect taxes, and still
- have to pay huge amounts for my kids education in private schools, because the government run schools are not up to the mark, even though free (someone working under me has his wife working as a teacher in government school, and I know what happens there). A Government school teacher earns more (much much more) than someone teaching at a private school, but corruption makes sure wrong people are in the wrong posts. Most countries have top quality government schooling covered under taxes paid. Its free.
- have to pay insane amounts for medical care in private hospitals, because, again, government hospitals are not up to the mark. Do nothing for the senior citizens who worked their life paying taxes and now no medical insurance company would enhance their coverage. 20 years back a 1L cover was sufficient, now,

The list could go on.
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Old 14th June 2017, 19:19   #2418
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Sorry for the rant, but I genuinely feel let down, yet again, by the government.
I sympathise with you, but I don't feel let down at all. Things are playing out just the way I expected them to; and you have not seen the worst of it yet.

It all goes back to a favourite saying I have: one can fool all the people for some of the time, some people for all of the time, but no one can fool all the people all of the time.

I have just come back from a road that was fine last year, that is submerged in water on the first day of rains here; and Pune rains are modest. As part of Pune Smart City, that road was made world class by using concrete. Predictable and inevitable result. Every day sees something equally ridiculous happening in India.

I could say we need to vote more intelligently, but it is clear that won't help when one sees the slate of candidates for every election. All are just different flavours of the same ice cream.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:41   #2419
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Govt allows district central co-op banks to exchange old notes

Now, what has changed from when the sarkar was concerned that "these banks, being politically connected, might be used for laundering black money."

Some introspection and achievement of Nirvana by them , perhaps?
No leeway for legitimate people, such as those who returned from out of the country, or like that old woman down south. But hey, the mutual mastication must not suffer, yeah.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:06   #2420
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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We already paid 4-5x for the veggies during the hadtaal, after getting the tax deducted salary. Now from the tax we paid, you waive loans? Whose's going to waive my loans which I am paying through my nose, diligently, month after month, without missing a single installment. I borrowed knowing I can repay, so did the bank who lent me, and I do that.
.
i have been thinking about this for a while and if you look at the farm to fork chain, the price that consumers pay is many times what the farmers get. Some of it is inefficient supply chain and will take a few years to sort out (if there is will) but a lot of it is due to vested interests and practices and policies which are by design catering to such interests.

If there is willingness there can be a win-win for both farmers and consumers in the near term and with better supply chain and more scientific farming things can see a dramatic change in the medium term.

If only wishes were horses...
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:16   #2421
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If only wishes were horses...
The problem in India is that there are a large number of "rent" collectors in the supply chain that don't add much more value than just being middlemen. It also isn't easy to eliminate these because then one needs to find jobs for them!

It isn't very different in corporate India, so one should not point fingers to any one sector. Look around inside a typical Indian company and see how many people are there everywhere that neither make the product, nor are in direct touch with the customers to sell it to them.

It is no different in the Indian army as well. They call it the tooth to tail ratio, because there are no customers as such.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:47   #2422
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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Govt allows district central co-op banks to exchange old notes

Now, what has changed from when the sarkar was concerned that "these banks, being politically connected, might be used for laundering black money."

Some introspection and achievement of Nirvana by them , perhaps?
No leeway for legitimate people, such as those who returned from out of the country, or like that old woman down south. But hey, the mutual mastication must not suffer, yeah.
This is bad and mutual back scratching going on. Rumors suggest this was done in order to get a State Party to endorse the ruling Party's Prez candidate. It may or may not be true, but it is in a way makes those people who were with the govt when everyone was against the decision look like fools. I am amazed no one has raised hue and cry over this! Or maybe I just don't watch the loud mouthed news channels anymore.

One more thing, although more and more people have started using digital payments, I find the local Kirana shops, the guys, who never give you a bill, still asking only cash. It's like we have gone back to old ways, again.

PS. I still think this is among the more sensible govt. we have had in quite sometime; but the pace of work vs. the promise of development has been off. I hope the GOI pulls up their socks and really accelerate the programs it has created. Demonetization was a great step; but the follow up has been lackluster. All I see is that my taxes help these ministers dole out even more freebies. We are sitting on a mountain of data - use it to generate taxes and use them legitimately. Also, why doesn't the GOI go after the top borrowers of this country, instead offering them sops; perhaps I will never know.

Last edited by pratyush6 : 22nd June 2017 at 11:54.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 13:06   #2423
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Now, what has changed from when the sarkar was concerned that "these banks, being politically connected, might be used for laundering black money."
I think they were all (most? some? a few?) audited by RBI. There were press reports indicating this.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 13:54   #2424
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I think they were all (most? some? a few?) audited by RBI. There were press reports indicating this.
District & State Co.op banks operate under RBI guide lines (especially in Kerala). The trouble makers were the Primary Co.Op Societies (who also behave like a bank), which used to accept and lend money, but used the District Co.Op bank as their apex bank.

There were restrictions placed on District & State Co.Op banks, mainly because they did not bother to check for KYC from the Primary Co.Op societies who deposited huge some of money with them. All chances of such money hoarders getting identified would vanish, because the trail gets lost at the District bank level.
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Old 24th June 2017, 00:41   #2425
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

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You're partly right, and those "hailing" the rise of government endorsed bitcoins (which the feds were vehemently against until now, but as long as they and their bankster cartel are middlemen and can swipe commission on each payment then its hunky dory sunshine) are partially right too, but there needs to be a middle ground.



The economy of a country cannot be put on something as fragile as internet, the only thing that works 24/7 all year round is physical currency. The need to transact is so high that people would end up making their own physical currency ( it was made by people initially ) I saw barter happening in the first few days of demonetization. About bringing industries under tax net, it is more about educating the economically illiterate people about the benefits of paying tax. More Tax you pay, larger your company, more benefits you can avail financially. Real estate is one sector which would be extra hard to get under total tax net because

1. The Stamp duties are very high ( should be around 1-2% )
2. The Capital Gains tax system needs to be reworked upon ( tax people less on capital gains profit )
3. The inflation in land prices brought about by black money ( in the form of cash, land swaps, bullions ) which is higher than collector rates. Nobody would sell their land below the inflated prices anymore.


About massive hospitals ( I am not practicing medicine anymore ) or an short term service related business survive on cash because that is the surest form of payment that you have received and they do pay all the taxes applicable because such a system required a proper billing system. Cheques are the worst form of payments because they bounce, signature mismatch, a lot of problems and then good luck recovering your payment. If you convince them may take months ( meanwhile you are paying for the service they availed ) and legal course is never easy and quick. So much that the hospital I interned in would only except RTGS or through swipe machine. We cant just see from a customers or a governments perspective. we have to see from the businessman's perspective. I have seen many people go bankrupt due to non-payments and non payments are a big portion of running costs of business which maybe in form of interests the business bear on non payments or write offs which bring the business of the verge of bankruptcy.

Last edited by ampere : 13th July 2017 at 18:12. Reason: Trimmed quoted post
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Old 24th June 2017, 06:31   #2426
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Good points all, but why don't we as citizens get agitated about what is the root cause of black money generation instead of all the measures to combat it? Black money exists because people do not believe their taxes generate any return to them, when they see the waste and corruption rampant in the government that collects them. Few people cheat on paying their housing society maintenance bills, for the opposite reasons. Some pay late, but almost all pay in full.

The Banking Transaction tax idea is to eliminate a lot of these evils in one swift blow. FOLLOWED after a year, by demonetisation, that too in phases. But GOI will never do this, never mind which party is in power. All want the opportunity to make money, the other side of the black money generation coin.

Digital cash is meant for user convenience; in our Alice in Wonderland world turned upside down, we are to use it even if it is less convenient than cash, so that black money, that is generated by the actions of those that demand us to go digital, isn't generated. Sounds like an outlandish statement, but a lot of things happening in India today are outlandish. Another outlandish statement being made these days is that using cash is anti national; go digital if you are a true patriot. What utter rubbish. But if judges can say that peacocks don't have sex, anything is possible.

Indians have a tendency to not ask their leaders the hard questions and to get carried away by slogans and clever acronyms. That is why there is a mad rush among people with an eye on how to make a swift buck, to enter politics.

Think about it; being elected to public office is being elected to be a servant of the public. Why then the massive celebrations by the victors after EVERY election; from PM to municipal councillors? We don't even see that anymore for the reality it discloses. Those that aren't in it for the money, are in it for the power trip. There isn't a third category which ought to be the main one: true public service.

Spouting Ram Rajya is easy.

Last edited by Sawyer : 24th June 2017 at 07:00.
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Old 24th June 2017, 11:04   #2427
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Default Re: Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!

Wonder what fellow travellers have been seeing in hotels - Had visited velankanni recently, and the hotel proudly displayed a tax payer certificate on the wall. Unfortunately, when the time came to pay, they insisted on cash payment (for 8K or so) as their machine was not working (on none of the few days we stayed ). We pushed them, but they insisted, and we were in a hurry to leave, so went to the ATM, pulled out the cash and paid it.

Cashless is good (honestly don't like carrying 4 digit sums of cash around) but the govt should do something to enforce it too

In my opinion, they should subsidize current payment infrastructure

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Old 2nd July 2017, 15:55   #2428
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At the risk of sounding repetitive, may I ask again as to what happened to the status of the final report on how much money did we make during demonetization scheme? Or lost?
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Old 2nd July 2017, 16:10   #2429
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At the risk of sounding repetitive, may I ask again as to what happened to the status of the final report on how much money did we make during demonetization scheme? Or lost?
I think when the Govt. changes you can file an RTI on this! May be then we'll know! It's not like Indians don't like to pay taxes: we hate to see our tax money get wasted by ex-ministers and ministers who go on medical tourism abroad at state expense.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 16:16   #2430
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RBI printing Rs 200 notes, says report; Twitterati expects Rs 100 notes to be demonetised
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