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Old 11th March 2017, 09:02   #16
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Default re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

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Granted, bad tenants may not be an exception. I was wrong going by only personal experience.

But do explain, how does 10 month advance solve the problem of bad tenant?
The way it seems to work is any and all damage to the house is covered. In one case for a flat I had rented out, at 6 months advance mind you, I made the mistake of renting to what I thought were 2 young IT company employees (all right, bachelors).

Pretty soon, 2 became 6, and the woodwork was scratched + a handle on one of the cupboards wrenched off trying to open it, oil etc stains in the kitchen, some vitrified floor tiles had superficial scratches due to god knows what etc. It cost me nearly 60,000 to fix all the damage, which would be well over the 3 month deposit limit at 18,000 a month rent.

If I'd waited a few months more to make them vacate, the damage would have been over a lakh, going by what they managed to do to a brand new flat inside 7 months.
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Old 11th March 2017, 09:52   #17
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

I think this PIL is misplaced logic (or some people have too much free time on their hands).

As it is, rent in these cities is a fraction of the cost of the property. Without this deposit, the landlord is left without any recourse if the tenant damages the property before leaving.

Anyway perhaps these 'good Samaritan's can also file PILs against giving credit card details while hiring rental cars and checking into hotels.

While they are at it, what about a PIL against paying advance income tax.

And then maybe they can file another PIL to ensure that tenants return flats to owners in the exact same condition they recieved it.
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Old 11th March 2017, 10:47   #18
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Talking Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Granted, bad tenants may not be an exception. I was wrong going by only personal experience.

But do explain, how does 10 month advance solve the problem of bad tenant?
What should car rental agencies do then? Charge the price of the vehicle as deposit?
It is not like the tenant is going to run away with the building! or even parts of it.
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Old 11th March 2017, 10:56   #19
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

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Evicting a tenant anywhere in India, even for non payment of rent, is an exercise in futility if you go through the legal system, and will take many years.

There's a flourishing "eviction business" run by local goons, municipal corporators etc that will charge you say 75k to a lakh or more to evict the tenant, sometimes by "persuasion" - very polite speech but significant because of the reputation of the guy who is speaking - and other times by turning up at the house with a lorry, physically bundling out the goods and pushing out the tenant (which is much rarer in this day and age of closed circuit cameras). Reminds me of The Godfather.
+1 . A few years ago in our Kolkata neighborhood , a tenant stopped paying rent and was refusing to go away despite several requests made by the landlord. The local goons ( with political affiliations , of course ) were called in. The tenant along with his family and belongings were thrown out in a day. I hear that 50K was paid to get this done - much cheaper and faster than the so called "legal system" . This was a few years ago and the latest inflation adjusted figure would be over 70K for sure.

While I don't generally approve of such extra legal methods , this shows the state the legal system has degraded to and the faith people have in it. In the same manner , even if a law is passed limiting deposits to 3 months or so , it simply won't be enforceable making the law useless.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 11th March 2017 at 11:14.
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Old 11th March 2017, 11:28   #20
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Renting is a commercial activity. It involves risk, and the risk is no greater than it is in other cities and towns of India, where they don't take 10 months advance. Are Bangalore tenants much more notorious than else where?

I am failing to understand why Bangalore landlords deserve 10 months advance to mitigate risk. It doesn't really solve the problem of bad tenants. Bad tenants can easily cause more damage than 10 months advance if they are willful.

Just increasing rent won't solve the problem either. It is not like bad tenants can't afford to pay high.

PIL has been filed because it affects a large numbers of potential tenants who can't afford to pay upfront cash of 10 months rent.
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Old 11th March 2017, 11:49   #21
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

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Renting is a commercial activity. It involves risk, and the risk is no greater than it is in other cities and towns of India, where they don't take 10 months advance. Are Bangalore tenants much more notorious than else where?
A much larger floating population due to the IT industry - so you have much more churn in vacation of apartments + their lying empty for a month or two as you repaint and then look for new tenants. If the tenants quit at some useful time like april - june during the summer holidays, other families will move in ASAP, but if they quit in the middle of the year it might be quite a while before you get a new tenant.

That seems to get factored in as well, in calculating the advance. Pain of course - 6 months is sort of optimum, I can't see a three month advance being anywhere near feasible. I guess Waseem is hoping for just that result - an average / mid point between his asked for 3 months and the current 10 month period, when filing his petition.
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Old 11th March 2017, 12:08   #22
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

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Originally Posted by KMT View Post
I think this PIL is misplaced logic (or some people have too much free time on their hands).

As it is, rent in these cities is a fraction of the cost of the property. Without this deposit, the landlord is left without any recourse if the tenant damages the property before leaving.
Has rental values plummeted in Bangalore recently?
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Old 11th March 2017, 13:04   #23
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

I agree with other TBHPians that this PIL is highly misplaced. Not sure why government should intervene and dictate on what constitutes a fair deposit between an owner and an tenant. I have been both a tenant and owner in Bangalore and I did pay 6 months deposit as a tenant which is indeed the norm.

One thing I find in bangalore is that the 6 month deposit acts as an equalizer. Owners discriminate less on choosing the tenant and the high deposit acts as a reasonable amount in security deposit. A tenant that is willing to make the high deposit inspires confidence knowing that they have saved up and can pay rent on time. In the event they cannot, the 6-month deposit gives time to hopefully have them vacated. Its an owners market but owners are less picky, thanks to the deposit is my guess.

While in hyderabad where rents are lower and tenants even negotiate on deposit and try to avoid paying more than 1-2 months don't really inspire much confidence. The owners end up discriminating a lot and tend to go with the tenant referred by someone known and/or that works in big MNC and check on education and pay slips. Its a renters market but owners are very picky.

In my experience living in both cities I do feel Bangalore has got it right and is a more fair market for both owners and renters.

Last edited by trishul : 11th March 2017 at 13:08.
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Old 11th March 2017, 13:55   #24
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Rent Control Act - ask the Mumbai bhpians about it I have a friend who lives in a rent controlled apartment in one of the nicest colonies in Bandra, and pays next to nothing - some rate that was fixed back in the 1960s or some such, that'd maybe buy you a dinner at one of those expensive SoBo cafes these days.
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Old 12th March 2017, 13:24   #25
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Dear Friends,

Many people ping me on FB and i get to read their horror stories on how the flat owners deducted/never returned their deposits citing frivolous reasons.This kept increasing with time and hence i decided to take this up.

I have helped many people recover their deposits which were otherwise held up with the flat/house owners.Most of them pay up immediately after an receiving an email with these golden words (I will be constrained to seek legal recourse and will file a case against you under section ***** ***** if you fail to return my deposit in next 7 working days.) The remaining guys pay up after they receive a legal notice from a lawyer.Please note that these very people had BLATANTLY refused to return the complete/partial deposit citing frivolous reasons.(Damage/Will pay after getting a new tenant/You owe money to the dhobhi/supermarket/Neighbor etc)

I have rented houses in Hyderabad,DEL/NCR,Chennai and Mumbai and paid deposits ranging from 1-3 months and i fail to understand what is so special about Bangalore.

I had sent a representation to the govt and as expected, it was conveniently ignored. The PIL (It was actually a Writ Of Mandamus) was filed after the representation fell on deaf years.

Waseem.

Last edited by SILVERWOOD : 12th March 2017 at 13:32.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:18   #26
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

I've been a tenant in Bangalore, and now a non-locally present house owner.

My place has been rented out to 2 tenants so far, and both experiences have been horrible. Poor quality in maintaining the place, damages to stuff (not always expensive, but a hassle to fix for sure, not to mention the downtime while these are attended to), and demands that touch the sky when they apply, but total lack of concern when they are leaving.

In all these cases, the only thing that brings in some semblance of order to the situation which is in favour of the tenants? Yes, the 10 month deposit. After all, the owner is the one who put in their savings to buy the place, and then have to live with the costs of doing it up after the damages incurred. For the tenant, in the absence of the 10 month deposit amount, he doesn't stand to lose much.

Even when i was renting, having newly moved to Bangalore, it was hard to digest the 10 month deposit... but sitting on the other side of the fence now, i can see how it helps. I coughed it up then, and now i try to be understanding to genuine people who say they have trouble with handing over so much money up initially. Pity they don't show the same concern when exiting.
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Old 13th March 2017, 11:43   #27
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Most of our tenants so far have left the property we rented out in a poor state and did not close the deal in a fair manner. Though they were all educated people who had good jobs. The main issue is with the upkeep of the house, and though the term of rental is quite short - say less than 2 years, we get back a battered down house from them, which is initially given to them in top notch condition.

Last month an apartment we rented out was vacated with the children's room scribbled all over, and since the kids couldnt reach the roof, they had dirtied it by bouncing dirty balls all over the roof. As if that was not enough, the floor was all scaled up and bathrooms were a mess. And finally, the rent for the last two months was not paid. The result was that we could recover the pending rent from the deposit, and had to put our own money to get the apartment back to shape. Now we have shown no desperation to rent it out again and will definitely think twice before accepting a tenant.

Call this unfair? Our condition with respect to maintenance deposit is simple - We expect the house to be returned as in the same condition how it was rented, if the tenant vacates before four years. Beyond four years, maintenance/painting is on our side. If vacating early, either the tenant himself fixes things, or we deduct the costs incurred. This is clearly written down and agreed to in the rental agreement. Now if there should be a rule limiting this, it will just make renting spaces difficult for tenants.

One of the points raised here is that not all tenants will damage the flat. Yes, definitely, we do get good tenants who have kept the property in great shape. In a similar way, not all landlords run away with the advance money, nor can fortunes be generated out of it. Sometimes that money is hardly enough for repairing the damages done by the tenants. One has to think from both sides to understand why the system is in place.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:20   #28
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Renting is a commercial activity. It involves risk, and the risk is no greater than it is in other cities and towns of India, where they don't take 10 months advance. Are Bangalore tenants much more notorious than else where?

I am failing to understand why Bangalore landlords deserve 10 months advance to mitigate risk...
A judge in Bangalore High Court had commented a year or so back, that one cannot just assume people in cities are simple minded. The article was a large section in page 3 with the case background & context, and how it generally applies to everyone.

See, Bangalore is not the same city it used to be even 10yrs back, forget 20-30yrs. Maybe people in Tier II & III are not as shrewd as they are here. Alot works on mutual trust there.

And in any case, the corollary could also be questioned : Why aren't people in other cities taking the example of the well informed people of Bangalore & implementing the same to protect their asset ?

Quote:
PIL has been filed because it affects a large numbers of potential tenants who can't afford to pay upfront cash of 10 months rent.
Then people should take what they can afford. Why struggle? If I can't afford something. Does it give me a right to brand it as criminal extortion ?

The relationship between landlord & tenant has developed a very negative sentiment. I'm not saying the OP is unfairly interfering as unscrupulous people do, but the method admittedly adopted definitely seems to be an unreasonable & biased attitude. Possibly attracting attention asif being a massaiah of sorts.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
...But do explain, how does 10 month advance solve the problem of bad tenant?
Lets grant that I may be able to get superficial damages fixed at half the "market cost" by putting my own personal efforts.

Problems arise when a Concrete column or RCC roof is perforated by rock bolts. Such things just cannot be cheaply repaired to original strength.

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Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
What should car rental agencies do then? Charge the price of the vehicle as deposit?
It is not like the tenant is going to run away with the building! or even parts of it.
Avis used to charge 50k to 200k as security deposit and would keep your credit card with themselves before handing over the car.

Recently there was a car rental agency (IIRC Revv) that was being discussed here about where the T&C said they could hold the renter liable for the full cost of the car. That too they keep it as their sole prerogative to assess damage. You'll notice even ZOOM Cars have started heavily penalising renters for superficial damages.

Still, a car is a movable machine, parts easily repairable & replaceable. But nothing can cheaply restore the strength of a drilled RCC roof/Column that has started leaking, to its earlier strength such that it doesn't recur in the long term.

Very insensitive people think its a laughing matter that someones property is genuinely vulnerable. Shows a glimpse into the attitude how tenants may have a no conscience of the landlords loss.

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
Evicting a tenant anywhere in India, even for non payment of rent, is an exercise in futility if you go through the legal system, and will take many years.

There's a flourishing "eviction business" run by...
One of my dads tenants hadn't paid rents for over a year. We could've chosen the "goon-route" paying 2 lacs, but we chose the legal route thinking the tenant will come to terms as we atleast had a well drafted agreement.

Outcome : Forget rent recovery, it took 2 years to get a court order to evict the tenant with police help. This was with 0 representations by the tenant (lawyer only filed meaningless IA's * & asked dates - & courts gladly granted long dates, despite objections).

(*= One of the IA's was that the tenants 10 yr old son would be travelling 2km more to school, and that my brothers willingness to move into the property after marriage isn't as important - the HC Judge agreed(!) and of his own accord gave tenant 4 months extra time, when my mom peacefully raised her right arm asking to object, the judge literally asked her to keep quiet and warned our lawyer!)

Eviction Process : Cops & Court "Amin" were unwilling to work on court order (!) & delayed it. After a month of delays & a stern warning by court, we had to spend 15+2k on the cops just to ensure they didn't claim insufficient personnel, we even spent 7k for 2 tempo's (prepaid so the tenant/litigant doesn't face hardship moving to his 3yr old self-owned 3 storey building just 7kms away), further 4k for 5 gutsy women-labourers that day just to carry out the legitimate court order. Took them 9 hours to just move-out the stinking junk that was stored by tenant.

Structure is in tatters - barely liveable. Now after heavily spending on sanitisation & repairs its still only usable as store room and free accommodation for ground staff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD View Post
Dear Friends,

Many people ping me on FB and i get to read their horror stories on how the flat owners deducted/never returned their deposits citing frivolous reasons. This kept increasing with time and hence i decided to take this up.
Granted your motive might seem to you as "for public good". But is your approach constructive ?

Quote:
I have helped many people recover their deposits which were otherwise held up with the flat/house owners.Most of them pay up immediately after an receiving an email with these golden words (I will be constrained to seek legal recourse and will file a case against you under section ***** ***** if you fail to return my deposit in next 7 working days.)
So you outright threaten people. Irrespective of what the contract says or their situation, irrespective of whether they can or cannot afford legal costs or not. Because ofcourse, thats not your problem, right?

Quote:
The remaining guys pay up after they receive a legal notice from a lawyer. Please note that these very people had BLATANTLY refused to return the complete/partial deposit citing frivolous reasons.(Damage/Will pay after getting a new tenant/You owe money to the dhobhi/supermarket/Neighbor etc)
Wah! Outlandish I must say. But what you believe is "BLATANT", could be considered "FRANK" by someone else. No?

Also, damage to structure is NOT a frivolous reason.

Doesn't it ring a bell that someone moving away leaving petty liabilities with poor people/small shops or neighbours (who'd generally consider someone staying closeby as reputable as "sufficiently credible for petty IOUs") could be a person of suspect character ?

Quote:
I have rented houses in Hyderabad,DEL/NCR,Chennai and Mumbai and paid deposits ranging from 1-3 months and i fail to understand what is so special about Bangalore.
I do plenty of shopping at local markets, and often fail to understand why some shops sell for much more than others. But I don't go around sending them legal notices claiming illegality. We're basically talking about individual private property.

Private individuals hold a right in personam to deal with their property in a manner that they solely feel fit. No ?

Quote:
...The PIL (It was actually a Writ Of Mandamus) was filed after the representation fell on deaf years.
Lets see. India may not be one of the best countries when it comes to the courts respecting private property rights, but I don't believe the situation can be THAT bad to put regulations on the free market.

Last edited by WorkingGuru : 13th March 2017 at 12:28.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:35   #29
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

Having read the comments here, all i can say is i am happy to be staying in my own place without having to worry about paying rent or collecting them!

Slightly OT - but thought of adding it here. There is a new trend where apartment owners give out their homes as 'serviced apartments' to a third party who will then handle everything else (finding tenants, maintenance etc). Now i can understand why this trend has picked up. It's a different topic whether such an arrangement should even be allowed in residential apartments.

Last edited by SilentEngine : 13th March 2017 at 12:45.
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Old 13th March 2017, 14:00   #30
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Default Re: Team-BHPian takes on extortionate Bangalore landlords with a PIL

I have just rented( in Chennai, Hyderabad and Bangalore), never been an owner to a rented apartment.

I have a question to the owners here who listed their difficulties.
Children damaging the walls or some sort of stains or scratches etc are granted to be present when you are renting out. Isnt this sort of thing covered in your agreement ? I think the amount required to paint the apartment again after the tenant moves out should be written on to the agreement and that should take care of minor damages like this.

When you give your apartment for somebody else to live in, I think you should reset your expectations. Sparkling tiles, squeaky clean bathroom ware, clean walls etc may not be expected from every tenant, not particularly because they deliberately want to damage. Some people do not care that much about pristine furnishings.
If you have an italian leather sofa, or a Teak cabinet or some special marble tile, obviously more often than not you will incur a loss. Please remove expensive stuff from your apartment and rent out with reasonable facilities.
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