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Old 26th July 2017, 15:34   #16
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

As per my understanding, the ATC always monitors the altitude of the aircrafts flying by under their radar. So why didn't this happen all the way between Kolkata and Nagpur? May be, somebody from Raipur ATC alerted them as it was the first airport en route?

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
Or the infamous Tenerife disaster that till date has the dubious distinction of being the deadliest air accident in aviation history claiming 583 lives. The latter incident is credited as a reason why we have crew resource management (CRM), that the above article mentions.
I was reading this exact article a couple of weeks ago. Very unfortunate accident all due to the communication I would say, even though the weather wasn't good. Man! those convos from CVR...
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Old 26th July 2017, 15:34   #17
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

Was reading about this and stumbled upon a forum where people were talking about LG pins.

Came across this news item, from Feb this year, where engineers forgot to take out these LG pins on a AI plane, which had prevented from the landing gear from retracting.

Difference? The pilots noticed immediately and landed.

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Air India has put two of its engineers off duty for reportedly “forgetting” to remove pins from the landing gear, forcing the Delhi-Kochi flight to return soon after take off. The pins of the landing gear ensure that the wheels of the plane do not retract accidentally when on the ground, and since they had not been removed, the pilots were unable to retract the aircraft’s wheels once airborne. The matter has been reported to the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).


The plane had been cleared for take off at the Delhi airport on Monday, but when the wheels did not retract once the aircraft was airborne, the pilots had to turn back urgently.
http://indianexpress.com/article/bus...e-off-4547739/

Last edited by libranof1987 : 26th July 2017 at 15:36.
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Old 26th July 2017, 15:43   #18
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by coolboy007 View Post
To miss some thing like this is virtually impossible, the first thing on an A320's after take off/climb checklist is "Landing gear" - the other pilot replies with "up" after confirming the gear is up.
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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
3. Drag due to the gear is extremely noticeable, and the vibrations and general loss of controllability as well. If you've been flying for a long time, you'll know at once when you have the yoke in your hands. Apart from that, you'll also have UNABLE CLB ALTITUDE displayed and slow airspeed. All of those things are extreme noticeable.
I have a question to both of you. Isn't there a climb/cruise configuration warning similar to a takeoff configuration warning? In the examples I quote (Northwest Airlines Flight 255 and Helios Airways Flight 522) audible and visual warnings indicated that the aircraft was not ready for takeoff.

When the aircraft is configured to climb to high altitudes with landing gear out, the flight computer or the fly by wire system should be easily able to detect the landing gear is not retracted and start sounding the master caution or master warning.

Wouldn't alarms have gone off in AI 676, forcing the crew to inspect what is wrong?

Last edited by govindremesh : 26th July 2017 at 15:44.
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Old 26th July 2017, 16:06   #19
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

Wow. Makes one seriously doubt India's pilot accreditation methodology.

Some time back Jet Pilot Shweta Singh ( ex wife of Rahul Mahajan ) deployed landing gear and speed breaks in midflight.

Two other pilots: Parminder Kaur Gulati and Garima Passi were found landing planes nose wheel first.

This is basic stuff. You don't even have to be pilot. Even a casual aviation enthusiast knows this.

Last edited by JediKnight : 26th July 2017 at 16:08.
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Old 26th July 2017, 16:36   #20
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
I have a question to both of you. Isn't there a climb/cruise configuration warning similar to a takeoff configuration warning? In the examples I quote (Northwest Airlines Flight 255 and Helios Airways Flight 522) audible and visual warnings indicated that the aircraft was not ready for takeoff.
There is a visible warning for sure. There are lights, right above the landing gear. searchingheaven confirmed this point too.

I don't think there is a audible warning for the landing gear though. There are emergency cases where landing gears have been down in advance to be on the safe side.

I think the audible warning you referring to is the terrain alarm ?!
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Old 26th July 2017, 16:37   #21
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

The smoothest flight I've had was with an all-women crew.

Pilots forget something or the other all the time. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm sure that it would not have gone unnoticed at the job. The captain and first officer would've had to face some consequences depending on the severity regardless of whether it's printed in the newspaper or not. It reflects on their record, and, believe me, no pilot wants a red mark on their resume.

I'm confident that the airlines are more serious about my safety than I'm. Besides, it's not a car where the back bencher can just yell at the driver to buckle up and cut that annoying beep. If they forget it, there's not much we can do. I'd relax and enjoy my covfefe.
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Old 26th July 2017, 19:40   #22
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Wow. Makes one seriously doubt India's pilot accreditation methodology.

Some time back Jet Pilot Shweta Singh ( ex wife of Rahul Mahajan ) deployed landing gear and speed breaks in midflight.

Two other pilots: Parminder Kaur Gulati and Garima Passi were found landing planes nose wheel first.

This is basic stuff. You don't even have to be pilot. Even a casual aviation enthusiast knows this.
Oh, you just opened up a can of worms.

Take a look at these news items: turns out, both of them forged their documents when applying for a CPL.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...ow/7782644.cms

http://www.eturbonews.com/21423/fema...-loses-licence
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Old 27th July 2017, 01:24   #23
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
Oh, you just opened up a can of worms.

Take a look at these news items: turns out, both of them forged their documents when applying for a CPL.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...ow/7782644.cms

http://www.eturbonews.com/21423/fema...-loses-licence
Friend of mine who is a pilot did mention that fake certificates are rampant in the Indian circuit and the management investigated as the pilot landed nose first. Scary how such major details like "is the pilot legal" are not looked into!

Maddy

Last edited by GTO : 27th July 2017 at 15:48. Reason: Language
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Old 27th July 2017, 01:33   #24
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Originally Posted by MaheshY1 View Post
The smoothest flight I've had was with an all-women crew.



.

Not to bust your comfort bubble, but there is really no correlation between a smooth flight and a safe flight.

I must admit I find this whole gear down incident remarkable to say the least. For various reasons as explained before it would be extremely unusual for a crew not to notice the gear down, until they are about to land and want to extend the gear only to find out its out there already.

Looking at the flight data it shows speeds and altitude in line with gear down procedures. So I don't think we can rule out they knew all along or at least for quite some time after take off. But as with all incident and accidents its always best to wait for the formal report.

Lets see.
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Old 27th July 2017, 08:32   #25
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by MaheshY1 View Post
Pilots forget something or the other all the time. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm sure that it would not have gone unnoticed at the job.
This is the reason why we have two people in the cockpit. To ensure that nothing is forgotten either by accident or on purpose. Half the cockpit is filled with checklists and procedures so that the pilots do not have to rely on memory. The pilots are supposed to follow the check lists to the T. Failure to do so is a grave error from the pilots and possibly a criminal offense for endangering lives of so many people.

If there is a small change in the sequence of steps to be followed, either because of a new update to the ECAM or due to some system being inop, the pilot might not be informed in person. However, the change must and will always be updated on the checklists and other manuals. It is the duty of the pilots to always follow the checklists and manuals regardless of what they think they remember. The same goes for everything related to aviation.
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Old 27th July 2017, 09:00   #26
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
Assuming it was not a technical issue, this is a error of grave proportions.
Pilot, wouldnt the exposed landing gear have heated up in such situations ?
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Old 27th July 2017, 09:21   #27
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

There are fine and minute technical details about operating an aircraft, the details and sequences of which cannot be left to the memory of pilot. These are incorporated in the various ready-made check lists.

But to retract the landing gear is not an elaborate and fine technical detail. I really wonder; I have no words to express myself when I read this news.

To me it only reflects that the non-competant people get themselves recruited by using influence in such organizations.

Hope AI takes right action on the pilots. Also hope that the Govt. takes long term measures to curb nepotism.
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Old 27th July 2017, 09:23   #28
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

I have a couple of questions.

1. Is the compartment where wheels are stowed after take off pressurized & temp controlled ?

2. If yes, why didn't the tyres burst travelling at 24k ft with temp below freezing & ambient air pressure so low.

3. If no, how do these tyres, made of rubber, manage to sustain such differences in pressure & temperatures in short duration ?


Regards,

Pawan
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Old 27th July 2017, 09:55   #29
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaheshY1 View Post
The smoothest flight I've had was with an all-women crew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Not to bust your comfort bubble, but there is really no correlation between a smooth flight and a safe flight.
+1

In fact, what I read a long time back is, a (reasonably) hard landing is the safer option as it allows the wheels to get maximum traction with the tarmac.

The article I read talked about how some airline management asked pilots to go for smoother landings just because passengers complained of hard landings. Which the pilot disagreed with he was of the hard landing school of thought.

It obviously doesn't mean you slam the plane down but just about hard enough.

Of course, this is all layman reading so I could be incorrect.
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Old 27th July 2017, 10:16   #30
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Default Re: Air India plane flies from Kolkata to Nagpur with landing gear down, Pilots clueless!

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Originally Posted by PapaBravo View Post
I have a couple of questions.

1. Is the compartment where wheels are stowed after take off pressurized & temp controlled ?

2. If yes, why didn't the tyres burst travelling at 24k ft with temp below freezing & ambient air pressure so low.

3. If no, how do these tyres, made of rubber, manage to sustain such differences in pressure & temperatures in short duration ?


Regards,

Pawan
1. No. Not pressurised in most aircraft.
2 & 3 The aircraft tyres are of a very carefully engineered pieces of technology. They can withstand two or three times their rated pressures quite easily before they give way.

See this to get an idea of how much they can withstand.
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