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Old 7th October 2017, 17:48   #91
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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As much as I'd like to, but as a businessman, it is not possible to work without Aadhar. They'll freeze the bank accounts and I can't file ITRs.
At the risk of sounding idealistic, how many bank accounts can they freeze?

Btw, isn't also a strange coincidence that the preceding "de-monetisation strategy" drastically reduced the possibility of existing without a bank account?

But, we still have TIME. If enough people stick their collective noses out, things WILL change.

What with so many communication tools like social media to organize among ourselves, if enough people really understand the implications of Aadhar, it is quite possible to get rid of it.

I have made up my mind to see this through the end, no matter what.

Last edited by ashwin489 : 7th October 2017 at 18:13.
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Old 7th October 2017, 19:49   #92
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

@ashwin489; I resisted Aadhar as long as I could, but then it became mandatory to file IT returns and so I had to enroll. Unfortunately the govt. is pro Aadhar and so we have to fall in line or get out. There is no escaping it mate. Aadhar is going to be mandatory even if you want to take a leak.
Maybe our govt. is already in the control of AI or aliens. But our policies seem to be herding us in a direction which no one seems to know. Aadhar is going to be like the Nazi party card which was popularized in Germany. Non Aadhar holders may be exterminated.
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Old 7th October 2017, 20:00   #93
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

There are only 2 options -> fall in line or go to court. The latter has already been tried.

Democracy or dictatorship, you have to follow the rules set by the Government. If not, there will be anarchy. Because, next somebody might say that personal income tax is evil, and that he will not pay taxes till corruption is removed.

The above tax argument too makes sense, but can Govt allow such things?
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:10   #94
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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There is no escaping it mate. Aadhar is going to be mandatory even if you want to take a leak.
Are we THAT powerless? No hope at all? The government is betting on this attitude to get their way.

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There are only 2 options -> fall in line or go to court. The latter has already been tried.

Democracy or dictatorship, you have to follow the rules set by the Government. If not, there will be anarchy.
Yes, I am just putting the idea out there for legal experts to pursue the Aadhar battle from an AI threat standpoint.

All governments, foreign or local, when oppressive need to held accountable or overthrown. By that logic, gandhi was an anarchist.

I digress, but it seems I am still not able to convincingly express the magnitude of the AI threat.
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:48   #95
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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There are only 2 options -> fall in line or go to court. The latter has already been tried.

Democracy or dictatorship, you have to follow the rules set by the Government. If not, there will be anarchy. Because, next somebody might say that personal income tax is evil, and that he will not pay taxes till corruption is removed.

The above tax argument too makes sense, but can Govt allow such things?
(Bolding mine for relevance)

My opinion differs from yours. And Gandhi's actions of civil disobedience too disagree with your opinion. Imagine if Gandhi said the same thing you did and just washed his hands off.

One more instance - Martin Luther King Jr., in his 1963 "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" also says "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

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Old 8th October 2017, 12:12   #96
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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I digress, but it seems I am still not able to convincingly express the magnitude of the AI threat.
The threat of AI is very real. But it has nothing to do with Aadhar.

Reminds me of a cartoon where an ant sitting on a dead elephant claims that he and another fellow in the background killed the elephant by biting it together. The fellow in the background is a king cobra.

Here, the AI is the king cobra and aadhar is the ant. The AI doesn't need aadhar to be dangerous.

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Old 8th October 2017, 12:14   #97
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

Civil disobedience of Gandhi/Martin Luther Jr is different, because it was a question of people's rights. It was a clear case of Black or White.
Now linking Aadhar with future problems of AI is way too far fetched. Do you have some sort of evidence that it can cause problems? Not theory, but evidence.

Last edited by smartcat : 8th October 2017 at 12:18.
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Old 8th October 2017, 13:12   #98
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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The threat of AI is very real. But it has nothing to do with Aadhar.
Exactly. Two completely different things are unnecessarily being linked to create a fear psychosis, almost a "click-bait" topic.

Last edited by Samurai : 8th October 2017 at 13:18. Reason: avoid quoting whole post
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Old 8th October 2017, 13:22   #99
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Now linking Aadhar with future problems of AI is way too far fetched. Do you have some sort of evidence that it can cause problems? Not theory, but evidence.
If the threat of AI is real, it is a logical step to reduce accumulation of human-identifier data. Let's say there is a psychopath out on the loose, it's best not to write down your address and put that in his pocket.

If you have to wait to start seeing evidence of AI dominance, then it would be too late by then.

And, I cannot see any real value that Mandatory Aadhar would provide to common citizens. If something does not present any real value & carries with it potential danger, why bother with it?

P.S. Like I mentioned before, I am not here to debate the possibility of AI threat. It is an eventuality and I'd like to discuss ways to improve our chances of survival against the machine.

Let me give you an example. Let's say there is a thread on T-BHP on how to live with VW's reliability & service issues, it would would be off-topic and unhelpful to advice not to buy a VW.

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Originally Posted by DigitalOne View Post
Exactly. Two completely different things are unnecessarily being linked to create a fear psychosis, almost a "click-bait" topic.
It's not. Both the topics are intertwined by one inalienable strand: DATA

And, how would AI determine identity of an individual: by matching DATA stored in centralized database

Last edited by Samurai : 8th October 2017 at 13:44. Reason: back to back post
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Old 8th October 2017, 15:42   #101
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

All your links are about people opposing Elon Musk's hypothesis. But, do note all of Elon's recent ventures (Tesla, SpaceX, Solar City) have been focused on improving our chances of survival as a species. I'd rather believe him than some religious nutbag politician that tells me that Aadhar is good for me.

And, Stephen Hawking is wrong as well?


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Old 9th October 2017, 08:41   #102
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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If the threat of AI is real, it is a logical step to reduce accumulation of human-identifier data. Let's say there is a psychopath out on the loose, it's best not to write down your address and put that in his pocket.

If you have to wait to start seeing evidence of AI dominance, then it would be too late by then.

And, I cannot see any real value that Mandatory Aadhar would provide to common citizens. If something does not present any real value & carries with it potential danger, why bother with it?

P.S. Like I mentioned before, I am not here to debate the possibility of AI threat. It is an eventuality and I'd like to discuss ways to improve our chances of survival against the machine.

Let me give you an example. Let's say there is a thread on T-BHP on how to live with VW's reliability & service issues, it would would be off-topic and unhelpful to advice not to buy a VW.



It's not. Both the topics are intertwined by one inalienable strand: DATA

And, how would AI determine identity of an individual: by matching DATA stored in centralized database
"Threat" of AI to jobs is real. "Threat" of AI to privacy is a different aspect. To extend your example, the "psychopath" already has your address. For example, even if you pay only cash and buy only from offline stores, it takes a couple of minutes to get your location data from your phone (even with location switched off) for a government to get what you bought.

Doesn't require fancy AI. Doesn't require Aadhaar. Having Aadhaar number in each database only makes it mildly easier to track. It is big-data world. Your privacy is already gone.

To reiterate, I can understand your arguments against mandatory Aadhaar but to link it with threat of AI is a stretch.
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Old 10th October 2017, 04:39   #103
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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"Threat" of AI to privacy is a different aspect.

Doesn't require fancy AI. Doesn't require Aadhaar. Having Aadhaar number in each database only makes it mildly easier to track.

To reiterate, I can understand your arguments against mandatory Aadhaar but to link it with threat of AI is a stretch.
A reasonable government would collect biometric data of ONLY criminals to keep track of them.

If our government can conveniently stretch the benefits of Aadhar to include providing identity, preventing tax evasion, national security and benefits scheme, I CAN and WILL stretch the AI risks of Aadhar.

Passport, license, voter ID already provides identity
PAN already covers tax evasion
Family ration card already covers benefits schemes
FYI on using Aadhar for Security - fingerprints are not always unique & have led to wrongful conviction

So, WHY DO WE NEED AADHAR? Because some guy in a designer vest said so.

There is something fundamentally sinister about it, and the government's haste to make it mandatory only reaffirms my fears.

Last edited by ashwin489 : 10th October 2017 at 04:53.
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Old 10th October 2017, 14:16   #104
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Civil disobedience of Gandhi/Martin Luther Jr is different, because it was a question of people's rights. It was a clear case of Black or White.
Now linking Aadhar with future problems of AI is way too far fetched. Do you have some sort of evidence that it can cause problems? Not theory, but evidence.
I apologise for not being clearer. I was under the obviously erroneous impression that the portion I made bold and mentioned was for relevance was clear enough that I was responding only to the bolded portion of your statement and not about aadhar or AI.

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Old 10th October 2017, 17:28   #105
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Default Re: Mandatory Aadhar - Artificial Intelligence Implications

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A reasonable government would collect biometric data of ONLY criminals to keep track of them.
.
If we use that definition we have over a hundred unreasonable governements in the world already! They all collect biometric data as part of procedure for issuing passports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport

(The list is incomplete as the Netherlands has been collecting biometric data for passport and such since 2006 I believe.)

In many countries your passport is directly linked to your social security number (or whatever the equivalent is), which in many cases is linked to tax, (child) and other benefits. Though my Dutch SSN I can access all local and national governemental organisations. I can pay my national and local tax, apply for child benefits, apply for various official documents, e.g. passport, driver licence, pay my traffic fines, look up the photographs of the speed camera etc etc. It's hugely convenient. But as with any system, it's never hundred percent fool proof or hundred percent safe. So far so good, I have never had any problems. Everything that 10-20 years ago meant filling out forms, going to an office, sitting for hours waiting for your turn, I now arrange from the comfort of my home with the a few mouse clicks. Or even when I'm travelling and abroad.


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