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Old 3rd November 2015, 06:58   #2881
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^^From your article

For both kids' bikes and adult bikes, the objective is the same: The seat should be positioned so legs never fully straighten during a downstroke. It's good to have a little flex in the knee at the bottom of your pedaling motion.

You will never be able to touch the ground with a flat foot when seated, if your saddle height is set up correctly.

Those comfort bikes [mentioned in the article] might be OK [even then not really comfortable if your knee flexes so much at the top of the pedal stroke] for tooling around a couple of kms, not for anything longer than that.

Regarding climbs, will get back later in detail.
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Old 3rd November 2015, 20:17   #2882
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Here is my Giant Cypress. Superb hybrid bicycle for city ride. I just love the handlebar position. I have changed the rear wheel . Now it has Alex double walled rear wheel. Also SRAM twist shifters were changed to Shimano Eazy fire shifters. I also have Trek 3700 MTB. In Trek, I have replaced front suspension with Surly's suspension corrected rigid fork. Will post the photos tomorrow.
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Old 3rd November 2015, 21:02   #2883
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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
A
Truly beautiful bike, and in my book pretty impressive numbers, too. I'm wondering about saddles myself, as the one on the Merida is really very skinny/hard and if it turns out to be as painful as it looks, it's going to have to go... I remember the Brooks name from way back - how wide is your saddle? Any other photo possible?
Thanks,
Here is a link to my Brooks saddle:

http://www.brooksengland.com/catalog...eavy+duty/B66/

Again, there will be many opinions about what would be the best saddle for which purpose, lots of rules of thumb. I just go for comfort. I have been using this same model Brooks saddle from very early on. It takes a while to break it in, because it needs to set to the shape of your bottom. You need to maintain it a bit, with some special potions. Its not cheap, but it is by far the most comfortable saddle I know. I prefer it to all these gel based saddles too.

People will tell you that your saddle needs to be slimmer, harder, especially when speed racing etc. I just go for comfort.

I rarely wear any special biking clothes. At best only those special trousers with the shammy leather inlay. That and a Brooks saddle will keep you happy for many, many miles.

If you go offloading or speed racing it might be worthwhile considering a different saddle and some more special clothing as well.

Although, to come back to your observation in the USA. I lived in Kansas City for three years prior to coming to Delhi. I took my bicycle to the USA. Yes, lots of Americans on bicycles in certain areas. Always kitted out as if they are getting ready for the Tour de France. Whereas in reality they did 20 miles at max. Getting dressed takes more time, then the actual cycling!

But hey, if it makes you enjoy your hobby/sport more why not?

Jeroen
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Old 3rd November 2015, 22:33   #2884
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UPDATE:

Just serviced my Bianchi Via Nirone 7 C2C. The Shimano 2300's tend to lose their ''perfect'' set of tune pretty quickly.

Might upgrade the gears soon.
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Old 4th November 2015, 07:13   #2885
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UPDATE:

Just serviced my Bianchi Via Nirone 7 C2C. The Shimano 2300's tend to lose their ''perfect'' set of tune pretty quickly.

Might upgrade the gears soon.

How's that? What happens to the perfect set of tune so quickly?
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Old 4th November 2015, 08:49   #2886
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Great insights on cycling and culture. I was deeply impressed on traveling to your country in the early 90's - indeed, every public parking was absolutely filled with cycles (interestingly, near-identical ones, to my eyes). The scene was very different back then, I'm told - there was apparently not much demand for "hundreds, if not thousands" of models at the time, and I can't remember in my weeks there (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Kroningen (sp?) ever seeing anything but the most standard of the standard styles of old european-style bikes (in the U.S. in the 70's, we called them "English bikes"): very conventional frames, full-fendered and probably mostly single-speed (the "flatness" of the land is literal, beyond the figurative socio-economic meaning provided), much along the lines of India's venerable Hero Royal!!! This at a time when the hobbyist/sport cycling (your assessment is largely correct) scene was already very well established in the U.S., and the abundance of styles/models in common usage testified to the more "enthusiast" leanings.

How it applies to the now-on-hold debate re: saddle height: My perception/observation was that in Holland at that time anyway, cycling was mostly done at a relatively leisurely pace, even when commuting. That and the lack of many hills probably reduced serious strains on the body for the overwhelming majority of riders, and precluded the prevalence of knee/other injuries of the type kumar2007 might be more justifiably concerned about in other contexts.

Just remembered a few things;

If you want to get a very good impression on how the Dutch use their bicycles on a given day in the city check out this link. It's hilarious and very true!

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

I also remembered I posted a while ago, in this very same thread a visit to a typical Dutch bicycle shop. Gives you some impression of the different kind of bicycles you can get these days:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3380952 (The Bicycles thread)

And finally, a picture of my Brooks saddle on my bicycle.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post3380958 (The Bicycles thread)

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Old 4th November 2015, 09:56   #2887
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Here is my Trek MTB with Surly rigid fork,Avid 180mm Disc brake. Rear deraillieur has been changed to Shimano Alvio. Handling is superb. I got the Surly fork from Happy earth Enterprises, LLP, Bangalore. It has SKS fenders, Schwalbe Marathon anti-puncture tyres.
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Old 4th November 2015, 15:35   #2888
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The disk brakes are supposed to be awesome in this regard. But, going by the laws of physics, you would think it is much more easier to stop a wheel holding it by the rim, than at the center.
No trouble with the laws of physics here. More force over a larger area (disc brake) is going to give you the same net braking force (resistance at the point of tyre/surface contact) as a smaller force over a smaller area (rim brake). To me the main advantage of the disc (as mentioned elsewhere) is its not being affected by water or by rim damage. My rear rim has damage so small as to not be visible - but I can feel pulsations on braking, unfortunately, and it can really be a safety issue (premature wheel locking), especially if up front.

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If you want to get a very good impression on how the Dutch use their bicycles on a given day in the city check out this link. It's hilarious and very true!http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/
Great link, very enjoyable. I love that wooden bike shown in one of the other links, too. Bet a carpenter with a good knowledge of his materials / trade could build something that not only looked, but rode great.

Getting back to an earlier observation of mine, a great many of the photos depict cycles (daily "bangers"?) with a single sprocket at the rear (and, as I mentioned, very much in the style of old-school classics like the Hero Royal) - are these indeed single-speed as I'd assumed, or are they using three-speed internal hub-gears like we used to see in the U.S. when we were kids?


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Although, to come back to your observation in the USA. I lived in Kansas City for three years prior to coming to Delhi. I took my bicycle to the USA. Yes, lots of Americans on bicycles in certain areas. Always kitted out as if they are getting ready for the Tour de France. Whereas in reality they did 20 miles at max. Getting dressed takes more time, then the actual cycling!
That sounds pretty typically American (we needn't get into similar phenomena re: 4x4 trucks and dirt/adventure motorcycles)!!! I think people are trying to think of ever more creative ways to accrue serious debt... (the old ways are just too boring) , and more seriously, to pretend that their lives are less mundane than the typical work culture typically allows.

Here in the village we're celebrating the second wedding in the space of seven days... volunteer service crew has been on duty for many days at a stretch, and everybody people have been busy eating / dancing / partying / doing endless ceremonies... most other work is on hold... Now, that's not the sort of thing that practically anyone in North America really would have the time for (or see the value in): Gotta finish my 60hrs workweek - so I have the money to equip / kit up my cycle the way I want it ($2,000 multi-gear hub drive, $900 riding suit, etc), and maybe if I'm lucky, fit in an hour ride on Sunday afternoon...

The Dutch seem from all indications / descriptions / images to be enjoying themselves thoroughly and unpretentiously on their bikes - which is as it should be.

Many Thanks,
-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 4th November 2015 at 15:45.
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Old 4th November 2015, 19:13   #2889
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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Getting back to an earlier observation of mine, a great many of the photos depict cycles (daily "bangers"?) with a single sprocket at the rear (and, as I mentioned, very much in the style of old-school classics like the Hero Royal) - are these indeed single-speed as I'd assumed, or are they using three-speed internal hub-gears like we used to see in the U.S. when we were kids?
These day 3 speed is the absolute bear minimum. These things go up to eight speed. Remarkably they are hardly any larger then the original 3 speeds.

See http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/rear-hubs

This summer we bought my wife a new bicycle, see http://www.gazelle.nl/assortiment/orange-c7-plus#

Seven speeds, no less!

It makes a lot of sense to have ‘city bikes’ fitted with these internal hub gears. Weight isn’t really the issue. They are very reliable and robust, require in essence no maintenance and last forever.

All about convenience and comfort. I remember the old three speed Sturmey Archers well. You were supposed to back peddle before shifting and if poorly adjusted you might ‘miss’ a gear. These modern ones don’t suffer from any of that. You just shift if and when it pleases you. Very accurate shifting too.

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Old 4th November 2015, 20:46   #2890
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All about convenience and comfort. I remember the old three speed Sturmey Archers well. You were supposed to back peddle before shifting and if poorly adjusted you might ‘miss’ a gear.
I was told by a friend that some decades ago the three-speed hub gears made a brief entry into the Indian market - in his city, Bangalore, there was only one mechanic who had the faintest clue how to service / repair them; predictably, this particular phase of biking evolution failed and everyone went back to single-speeds.

Complexity (unless extremely robust) is often the enemy of the masses (well, maybe not in someplace like Germany, where engineers and even some normal people might even love it for its own sake). We have seen a similar dilemma more recently all over rural India with dérailleur systems; The typical solution to shifting problems (or even something as simple as a broken cable) has often been to simply remove the offending mechanism, shorten the chain, and run it on a single set of sprockets... Fortunately, here in Manali we've had a showroom, some tour companies, and thus decent mechanics pop up in the past few years.

Shimano, I recently learned, makes an 11-gear hub system, and I think someone else makes (an extremely expensive) one with even more. I'd love to run one, but just getting into biking again, so will see if my interest is sustainable first. I've often been a DIY tinkerer, but in most cases would prefer that something work without intervention.

-Eric

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Old 5th November 2015, 05:37   #2891
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Good morning folks. I'm sure everytime Jeroen reads my / Kumar's cycling posts he remembers Confucius: "Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated". But sometimes complexity is necessary. More on that later!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Any hill-specific advice you can provide here would be helpful - in surfing the web for cycling-specific injury topics, excessive hill riding/training was mentioned in a couple places. I've seen a recommended cadence somewhere of 80-90rpm for efficiency - do the particular strains of hill riding alter this in any way (here we could be riding uphill easily for an hour or two at a time)?
http://www.uwhealth.org/files/uwheal...aincyclist.pdf is useful general pro advise.
http://botadventure.blogspot.in/2015...ride-high.html is end-user inputs. That's echoed by other riders - high cadence in general, but extremely low (~30-40) cadence for ~15 mins to build muscle endurance to finish off the training.

Can't comment on the hill part - never done that but intuitively on gurgaon's 'long' climbs (1+ km) I have often simply settled into the easiest gear possible - my instinct is to always keep the cadence same and keep shifting gears. Maybe that is because i'm overweight and weak!

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
Truly beautiful bike, and in my book pretty impressive numbers, too. I'm wondering about saddles myself, as the one on the Merida is really very skinny/hard and if it turns out to be as painful as it looks, it's going to have to go... I remember the Brooks name from way back - how wide is your saddle? Any other photo possible?
Don't jump so quickly - many folks manage just fine on those saddles itself. Brooks is the Honda of saddles - many many delhiites buy a B37 (?) for brevets. I'm not sure you should buy a Brooks this soon without trying your saddle for ~2+ hour rides. Buying a saddle is again about measuring your sit bones - you can't just take any size / shape! If you're interested- check links that were posted earlier. Its complicated. Many dealers in Delhi stock them btw.

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
No desire to stir things up, but will consider your earlier comments vindicated by some of the content there: Attachment 1434835
(sorry the Tbhp watermark covered the most significant bit there: "designed to allow the rider to put their feet flat on the ground when seated").
Yesss! and this is what those bikes look like!
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I disagree that we can simply transpose the end-result (feet touching ground or smaller tyres on smaller frames) but ignore the underlying principle pointed out by K2007 (The seat should be positioned so legs never fully straighten during a downstroke). That was the issue we debated with jeroen.

Consider that most people are not buying the bike above but this one:
Attachment 1421343

Hence we can't use a specific rule of thumb for one geometry on another - no way.

@FINTail; Welcome to upgrad-itis

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I rarely wear any special biking clothes. At best only those special trousers with the shammy leather inlay. That and a Brooks saddle will keep you happy for many, many miles.

If you go offloading or speed racing it might be worthwhile considering a different saddle and some more special clothing as well.

Although, to come back to your observation in the USA. I lived in Kansas City for three years prior to coming to Delhi. I took my bicycle to the USA. Yes, lots of Americans on bicycles in certain areas. Always kitted out as if they are getting ready for the Tour de France. Whereas in reality they did 20 miles at max. Getting dressed takes more time, then the actual cycling!

But hey, if it makes you enjoy your hobby/sport more why not?

Jeroen
I think you miss the big picture here - in Delhi as well most recreational cyclists are kitted out in different levels of kit. Even many commuters do that here. But I completely appreciate your philosophy. Cycling when done leisurely does not need any special kit. If you plan to push yourself, kit is nice. Eric - if you're fit and plan to pedal short distances, ignore the rest of my post.

-> If you're going out riding a considerable distance - it helps to be prepared. Like you mentioned "shammy leather inlay". Or as we use - bib shorts with thermo-formed ergonomic padding.

Maybe it is me - I've been quite overweight for a long time and I can tell you that if I don't use padded shorts and rash cream on long rides, I end up with friction wounds. This is no joking business for many of us!

-> Ditto jerseys - Jerseys are just moisture wicking tees that have pockets for wallets / mobile phones / keys because it is uncomfortable cycling with any object in your shorts pocket

-> Cleated shoes were discussed earlier. Not required in many cases but are useful if you're a bit competitive / want to climb more easily.
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Old 5th November 2015, 09:07   #2892
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I think you miss the big picture here - in Delhi as well most recreational cyclists are kitted out in different levels of kit. Even many commuters do that here. But I completely appreciate your philosophy. Cycling when done leisurely does not need any special kit. If you plan to push yourself, kit is nice. Eric - if you're fit and plan to pedal short distances, ignore the rest of my post.
In the context of this thread I must admit I have no idea where the big, or small for that matter, picture would even begin to come in. We are discussing bicycles in the context of a hobby/interest here, not world peace.

Again, I dont like to go by rules such as "cycling when done leisurely does not need any special kit". It suggests there is a precise definition on what constitutes leisurely versus non leisurely biking. When I do a 100 km ride in 4 - 4.5 hours, ie average 25 km/h I would consider that a nice easy leisurely ride. (safe for wind factor in the Netherlands). For some paddling even an hour at 25 km/h would be unrealistic at the best of times. I do it in jeans, t-shirt and a windbreaker when chilly. Why, because it works for me.

I think what is more important for any hobby and or sport, you need to do what makes sense for you. If you choose a frame because it gets your feet a little closer to the ground and you feel more comfortable with that, thats is fine. You want to deck yourself out in $ 2000,-- Lycra super kit for a 15 minute tour around the block, that's fine too.

I remember an old friend of mine telling me about his hobby: Diving. He is a very accomplished amateur diver and travels all over the world. He has an unbelievable amount of kit. He told me that he actually spends more time "fiddling with his kit" as he calls it, rather then diving. And he thoroughly enjoys that as part of his hobby.

Some people who are into photography will talk endlessly about their kit, keep buying and selling lenses, bodies, filters etc. Some don't. (Photography is one of my big hobbies and I stick with the same kit for years). Again, Photography is full of people pointing out rules and what kit should be used for what shot or scene. But there are plenty who dont follow those rules and take stunning pictures. Put differently, there is no single recipe for the best result let alone the most enjoyment of your hobby. It is very personal.

Better kit doesnt make you a better photographer, or a better cyclist perse. Everybody needs to decide for themselves what works for them, what makes them happy, comfortable and what gives them the most enjoyment. I have left the very mundane fact that most of us might have some financial constraints on how much money we can pour into our hobbies and interest out of the equatation all together.

Jeroen

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Old 5th November 2015, 23:17   #2893
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

I think what is more important for any hobby and or sport, you need to do what makes sense for you. If you choose a frame because it gets your feet a little closer to the ground and you feel more comfortable with that, thats is fine. You want to deck yourself out in $ 2000,-- Lycra super kit for a 15 minute tour around the block, that's fine too.

But there are plenty who dont follow those rules and take stunning pictures. Put differently, there is no single recipe for the best result let alone the most enjoyment of your hobby. It is very personal.

Jeroen
I have to wholeheartedly agree to the point you make...not only in the context of the last few pages of this thread but also in general.
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:33   #2894
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
We are discussing bicycles in the context of a hobby/interest here, not world peace.

I think what is more important for any hobby and or sport, you need to do what makes sense for you. You want to deck yourself out in $ 2000,-- Lycra super kit for a 15 minute tour around the block, that's fine too.

...[a] friend... told me that he actually spends more time "fiddling with his kit" as he calls it, rather then diving. And he thoroughly enjoys that as part of his hobby.

[re]...photography...there are plenty who dont follow those rules and take stunning pictures. Put differently, there is no single recipe for the best result let alone the most enjoyment of your hobby. It is very personal.

Better kit doesnt make you a better photographer, or a better cyclist perse. Everybody needs to decide for themselves what works for them, what makes them happy, comfortable and what gives them the most enjoyment.
Good points there, although as someone who enjoys the study of culture (hence appreciated your earlier observations about its effects in the realm of cycling) and has a bit of a philosophical bent besides, certain questions do come up (perhaps even distantly related to world peace!???). Like, "what is the basis that various people use for determining "what 'works'/makes me happy/etc"? Interesting to consider that:

1) the various descriptions above might actually start to draw lines between distinct hobbies/interests; i.e., between someone being a "photographer" and someone being a "camera guy" (a husband/wife duo I know represent this well - he knows / understands / buys the equipment, but she is the one with the real knack for imaging). Another possible category here is the newbie who goes out and buys a new digital Hasselblad (or the largest/longest/most attention-grabbing Canon "L" lens he can find) just because he thinks it'll help him get laid more frequently (what is his "photographic" hobby, really, and is there anything like sincerity in it?). In the present case, maybe it's between the hobby of "cycling" and that of "cycles" (or "cycle building / outfitting", etc). Indeed, for me as a technical guy with a lazy streak, the hobbyist side would be the building/ restoring/ outfitting/ tweaking, while the cycling itself – in these hills at least - seems at present more like a necessary evil (for the sake of my health)!

2) One could also ask, is an interest or hobby that's about "pretending" or posing, or the lust for more "stuff" actually useful for humanity in general - or finally, even for myself (or for world peace!)?

3) There is a difference bettween being "unconventional" and in defiance of the rules getting good results (photographic, etc); and being outright excessive, with questional benefits. You mentioned financial constraints, and most people are under those to greater or lesser degrees. Beyond that is the question of how much is “right” to spend. I mentioned the north American penchant for debt, but whatever, someone may have sufficient funds (or available credit, or capacity to justify) for a $200 cycle, or even a $2,000 cycle, but how many are able/willing to spend $20,000?). And even for those with virtually no constraints, there are still terms that have been coined which might apply; One that comes to mind would be, "Wretched Excess"... There are healthy, re-creational "hobbies" which taken a couple steps too far can become either unhealthy obsession, or just one more form of vain posing (one that's usually easy enough to see through). Everything/everyone else around it can begin to degrade in that case.

That's what I kind of liked about the link to the Amsterdam biking scene – mostly just “normal” people simply enjoying themselves on rather modest, practical bikes, sometimes with a fun-loving passenger or two also aboard, not seemingly very conscious about their status or what they were wearing / not wearing, how expensive their cycle was / wasn't, whatever.

The American guy doing his Sunday-afternoon tours around the neighborhood, in contrast, is not going to benefit much in terms of performance (or maybe even pleasure) from either his super-suit or the incredible funds he spent shaving a few hundred grams off his race-prepped cycle's weight.

So I do get wondering about the basic mindset, what's driving it, what the basic value system involves. A good friend of mine once bought a highly modified, race-prepped RM250 racing dirt motorbike, and decided to show up at the track one day with it, decked out in his shiny new full factory-team-colored racing suit. It was not a competitive event that day; but still, almost immediately, modestly-geared-up veterans (and even “kids”) on much lesser bikes were having quite a good time running laps around him, leaving him feeling more than a little self-consciously foolish. The bike in any state of tune was already way too much for his suburban back yard, too much for miles of government power-line trails he had access to, certainly too much for him to personally handle / make use of. As interesting and impressive a machine as it might have been, it just didn't make any kind of sense for anyone but a professional racer. He wisely sold it off.

It can be seen more positively, though: Truly there is something in mankind – much of mankind, anyway – that recognizes, appreciates, and pursues excellence, and has a desire to draw nearer to perfection. I remember years ago seeing the prices of Bentley motor cars in magazines and thinking, “Who in their right mind would want to spend – or even think it fundamentally right to spend - $275,000 on a car?” And then one day I actually saw and studied one up close in person – in this case a dark blue coupe - and suddenly it was understandable. The virtual perfection and depth of the paint, the flawless leather upholstery, the complementary nature of the color shades, the precision alignment of body panels and the very shape itself... An aesthetic marvel, something designed to defy the ravages of time and the fickle, seasonal fashion must-haves of the masses. This is a work of art; it will still look as good and be worth as much (likely much more) fifty years from now as it does today. It could be the same with a high-quality motorcycle, bicycle, or for that matter a table lamp, a clock/wristwatch, a vase, a nice pen, or a good winter coat.

As mentioned, on the more base side of human nature and desire, any of these are simply more "posing tools" of the lately most popular rap artist or best-paid CEO (or debt-trapped wanna-be); At their best, however, they are shadows – pointers – an acknowledgement and anticipation (even for the billions of mortals who could never, ever afford them) of something certainly much higher, purer, and perfect than ourselves. Honest artists, designers, engineers, craftsmen know that the best of their work always could have been better – there is always some little flaw or imperfection, something less than ideal, something minutely compromised. There is a Standard that is elusive – something, indeed Someone, only feasibly sought and found beyond ourselves, and beyond the ultimately rusting, rotting, corruptible, and temporal things of this world.

In some way, all this pursuit of beauty, balance, and perfection in the "hobbyist" realm, needs be balanced against the realities of the often ugly, imbalanced, and corrupted state of things "out there" in the "real world"; against the severe poverty of a large section of the earth's population, against severe environmental degradation, etc. With that in mind, there are a lot of less glamorous but in many ways more important things to be conceived / designed / invested in (new wastewater treatment / waste-composting systems, cures for debilitating/terminal diseases, etc, could serve as a few decidedly unglamorous examples) towards the benefit of the human race - without that, of course, our "enjoyment" of our hobbies and everything else will be decidedly fleeting and short-lived. Hardly any of even the best and brightest of our species has been able to draw this balance ideally – but it HAS been done.

So (to finally conclude) I will pray, as a pedal along on my cycle, that I myself will be enabled to “do all things well” and know the pleasures both of a clear conscience, and of the truly Divine.

Thanks,
-Eric

Last edited by ringoism : 9th November 2015 at 20:40.
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Old 9th November 2015, 21:09   #2895
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Default Re: The Bicycles thread

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Originally Posted by ringoism View Post
So (to finally conclude) I will pray, as a pedal along on my cycle, that I myself will be enabled to “do all things well” and know the pleasures both of a clear conscience, and of the truly Divine. [/i]
Wow, that was a really long post. Not sure I can even begin to follow you.

Personally, I’m not even remotely interested in doing things well perse. It tends to be boring, because very soon others expectations creep in. I do things I enjoy or find relevant or important, its that simple.

If somebody want to pose with a fancy bicycle, a Hasselblad camera or a Ferrari who am I to judge? It it makes them happy, good for them!

I only have one criteria on what others do: Does it hurt or have a negative effect on others? If it doesn’t, go for it.

I live by one rule only; don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to yourself.

Happy peddling

Jeroen
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