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Old 19th January 2017, 14:38   #61
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
We drive pleasure in eating animals (non-veg) too. And showcasing dogs, horses in shows, racing them and playing polo too. And what about denying a calf its share of milk in full, that we do to produce, sell and consume milk?

There is a lot of atrocity imparted on a lot of animals by humans, jallikattu is nothing compared to those. I agree, nothing to be proud of in getting pleasure out of jallikattu, and I agree, I am also against bans.
I may eat meat for a number of reasons, but pleasure is not the top one. I may derive pleasure eating meat not by watching it getting killed.

So the difference is that, it is the act of cruelty that you are deriving your pleasure from. And what do they use to call it? Barbaric pleasure? And you are proud of it? Seriously?
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Old 19th January 2017, 14:54   #62
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I may eat meat for a number of reasons, but pleasure is not the top one. I may derive pleasure eating meat not by watching it getting killed.

So the difference is that, it is the act of cruelty that you are deriving your pleasure from. And what do they use to call it? Barbaric pleasure? And you are proud of it? Seriously?
first up - I neither support nor oppose jallikattu, just stating my views.

So we will go to the butcher shop and close our eyes when the chicken is being slaughtered, and happily come home, wash the blood out of chicken pieces and cook it. No issues, as we don't watch the killing itself.

We take pleasure rides on horses, elephants and camels. We watch dog shows and let our own pet dog participate (we train them to obey). No issues.

Farming communities for so long have raised farm animals, cattle for milk and ploughing the fields (that is cruelty to), to pull carts and for transportation (donkeys are used to haul heavy weights, not a cruelty?)
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Old 19th January 2017, 14:56   #63
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Well, a simple analogy! The law is "for the people and by the people". This is one of the several basic parameters, which we expect any person to bear in mind while delivering a judgment in upholding / scraping a legislation/action/practice.

Am sure every one would have seen the up-rise from the people of Tamil Nadu. The people who are more concerned with the relevant law in question do not want them. While so, what and where is authority for any one to force it upon.

It ain't democracy!

All that is requested is regulate them, rather than completely restricting them.

Last edited by yogeshbala : 19th January 2017 at 15:08. Reason: modified the language - for better reading
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Old 19th January 2017, 15:10   #64
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
first up - I neither support nor oppose jallikattu, just stating my views.

So we will go to the butcher shop and close our eyes when the chicken is being slaughtered, and happily come home, wash the blood out of chicken pieces and cook it. No issues, as we don't watch the killing itself.

We take pleasure rides on horses, elephants and camels. We watch dog shows and let our own pet dog participate (we train them to obey). No issues.

Farming communities for so long have raised farm animals, cattle for milk and ploughing the fields (that is cruelty to), to pull carts and for transportation (donkeys are used to haul heavy weights, not a cruelty?)
You don't get the point. I am sad that animals are being killed to feed me. I truly am. And that is precisely why I avoid going somewhere where a cow/chicken/pig is butchered. Even if I have to go, I turn my head when the act is on. Because I don't derive any pleasure watching it being killed. Similarly, I wouldn't watch Jallikkattu because I don't like watching the animal being tortured. So I have problem with people who tell me that they derive pleasure seeing the animal being tortured.
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Old 19th January 2017, 15:10   #65
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Its done in a 1st world country like Spain, why not here. Culture needs to evolve not be killed like this.
1) Just because something happens in a first world country does not make it right.
Bull fighting, be it in Spain or Saudi Arabia is wrong. Similarly, gun violence, be it the US or Nigeria, is wrong.

As a third-world nation, we can't ask that the first-world guys clean up first before "evolving".

2) This whole "culture" argument is currently the most abused and insulted aspect of our society.
A lot of things, be it women's role/behavior in society, or the atrocities we commit against animals, just seem to be alright because that is how we've been doing things, and hence is our culture.

To your specific point on evolution, why else will humanity evolve unless we learn to be emphatic about otherliving organisms and correct what we've been doing wrong.

If the realization that this particular sport is animal cruelty causes a ban on it, it is, in fact, evolution, not "killing it".

Not just Indians, but world over, humans have been doing far too much evil in the name of it being a part of their culture. Unless we know better and set things right, man will continue to remain to selfish animal that he is.

Last edited by libranof1987 : 19th January 2017 at 15:12.
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Old 19th January 2017, 15:33   #66
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

I would like to state some points here. I have lot of respect over our culture and the much matured Indian Tradition. We have a culture which matured over 1000 years of time and each and every practice/tradition have an invaluable meaning behind it.

Also some of the traditional practices which are meaningful during the ancient times are not meaningful now. Hence, those can be removed/altered to adopt current modern age life style. For example, they said "we should not cut our nails and hair after evening time". Actual meaning is to keep the hygienic environment as there is no light after evening those days, which is not applicable now. But not the outright ban of all those practices without understanding the reason.

First of all, Jallikattu is one of the sport to select the strongest breed to develop our much valuable native breeds. You can see all the animals in nature have the habit of selecting the best partner by "survival of the fittest" logic. Also this was used to show case the strongest male fighter against the charging bull. Final winner is chosen to marry the daughter of popular local personalities. You can see the same "survival of fittest" logic in our society also by marrying the daughters to strongest male.
Based on the logic its played and the purpose, it’s purely genuine and good. But how this activity being executed is the question.

- If you look at how the sport is played in ancient times, most of the people who are arguing against it will understand.
- Bull will be released to a closed/gated ground. Whoever willing to stand against the charging bull can volunteer and jump in to the gated ground.
- Without any weapons, he should try all his skills, power to get the bull down. Down means not killing, just hugging that bull itself not that easy. There is an alternate term to this sport in tamil called “Eru Thazhuvuthal”. Which means hugging the bull.
- And also they used to tie some chains and threads in the bulls neck/head/horn. He should untie that to declare himself as winner. Bull will not allow him to touch the head or horn unless it defeated by the power of the player and he will untie by hugging the bull.
- All of the practices are played without doing any harm to the bull and the player. Not like the current version where hundreds of people jumping on one bull. In those days, bulls never run, it will stand against men and show its power.
- We had the tradition to love animals. Cows and Bulls are part of our families, we nurtured them like family members. Our tradition is not about torturing them.

We have to stop the malpractices in the traditional sport. Before stopping such traditional practices, we have lot of foolish things to correct in our society. All this PETA and awareness about bull tortures are perfectly planned games to eradicate our native breeds. We can write a book about our native breeds and the benefits of milk from native breeds (with hump). Like all other herbal’s in India, we had a healthy breed to produce milk. All the other country breeds milk are not healthy like ours.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 19th January 2017, 15:44   #67
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Most of the Pro-Jalli Kattu argument so far (Within this thread and during discussions outside of Team bhp) are like an accused in the court arguing, a crime done by someone else, somewhere else is not punished. So, why punish me?

Giving another driving analogy, if a Traffic COP catches a car driver for over speed and there are multiple other cars that are not caught at the same time by the same cop, the car driver who is caught asks the question, there are other vehicles who have driven over speed. Why are you catching me alone?

This argument does not hold good in court. A person who is the accused in the CURRENT CONTEXTUAL case will still be punished if crime is proven even if several others have escaped.

In other words, Others NOT being punished cannot be a reason to leave the accused in the context of court

PS: I am not saying whether this is a crime OR not. I am just trying to explain, how LAW sees the case. By the way, personally, I am against Jallikattu game. No one has a right to harm any other living thing be it be Bull OR Ant OR elephant

Last edited by gkveda : 19th January 2017 at 15:46.
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Old 19th January 2017, 15:58   #68
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Well, a simple analogy! The law is "for the people and by the people". This is one of the several basic parameters, which we expect any person to bear in mind while delivering a judgment in upholding / scraping a legislation/action/practice.

Am sure every one would have seen the up-rise from the people of Tamil Nadu. The people who are more concerned with the relevant law in question do not want them. While so, what and where is authority for any one to force it upon.

It ain't democracy!
This has been discussed in a thread about demonetisation. But I will try to make it clear again.

Majority support for a law doesnt mean that law is right. Democracy is not always the tyranny of the majority. Democracy works within a framework. Majority of the people may not like that framework, but that doesnt mean that framework has to go. In India, that framework is our constitution.

I will give an example which i mentioned in the demonetisation thread:
Majority of Indians are Hindu. What if the majority decides to make India into a Hindu theological state with no rights for the minorities? Just because majority support such a proposal doesnt mean it is right.


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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
First of all, Jallikattu is one of the sport to select the strongest breed to develop our much valuable native breeds. You can see all the animals in nature have the habit of selecting the best partner by "survival of the fittest" logic. Also this was used to show case the strongest male fighter against the charging bull. Final winner is chosen to marry the daughter of popular local personalities. You can see the same "survival of fittest" logic in our society also by marrying the daughters to strongest male.
Based on the logic its played and the purpose, it’s purely genuine and good. But how this activity being executed is the question.
The strongest cattles are selected worlwide for breeding through proper scientific methods. Not through such bull fights.

There are many other ways to show the strength of a human male. A person who could hang on to a bull's back doesnt make him the strongest. Do you really think a person who could hang on to a bull is really the strongest?

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
- All of the practices are played without doing any harm to the bull and the player. Not like the current version where hundreds of people jumping on one bull. In those days, bulls never run, it will stand against men and show its power.
- We had the tradition to love animals. Cows and Bulls are part of our families, we nurtured them like family members. Our tradition is not about torturing them.
How can you say that hanging on to a bull and untying something from its neck is not torture?

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
We have to stop the malpractices in the traditional sport. Before stopping such traditional practices, we have lot of foolish things to correct in our society. All this PETA and awareness about bull tortures are perfectly planned games to eradicate our native breeds. We can write a book about our native breeds and the benefits of milk from native breeds (with hump). Like all other herbal’s in India, we had a healthy breed to produce milk. All the other country breeds milk are not healthy like ours.

Just my 2 cents.
I dont work for PETA, but how can you say that it is a conspiracy to eradicate native breeds? SC banned Jallikattu after hearing the other side too, right? Then why proof was not shown to SC, that PETA was working to eradicate the breed?

Why not ask the govt to provide funding for protection of native breeds? Is Jallikattu the only way to protect native breeds?

Do you really believe that the milk provided by breeds in other countries are inferior to ours? If yes, what makes you think so?

How is milk production by a cow and aggressiveness by a bull (in Jallikattu) related?

Last edited by deerhunter : 19th January 2017 at 16:10.
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Old 19th January 2017, 16:51   #69
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
This has been discussed in a thread about demonetisation. But I will try to make it clear again.

Majority support for a law doesnt mean that law is right. Democracy is not always the tyranny of the majority. Democracy works within a framework. Majority of the people may not like that framework, but that doesnt mean that framework has to go. In India, that framework is our constitution.

I will give an example which i mentioned in the demonetisation thread:
Majority of Indians are Hindu. What if the majority decides to make India into a Hindu theological state with no rights for the minorities? Just because majority support such a proposal doesnt mean it is right.
Apart from the question of right / wrong, the question of need and don't need also needs to be understood.

Our constitution provides us a right to protect each of our respective culture and tradition. It is also a fact that law evolved from culture and not the vice versa.

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How can you say that hanging on to a bull and untying something from its neck is not torture?
Then isn't milking a cow, torture? This may be tried with a lion / tiger, if milking is considered a kind act!

If holding / embracing the bull is cruel, then so is milking the cow.

Just because one person has used chili powder or bitten the bull's tail does not make the entire sport illegal. Also, a closer look on the sport would make you understand that not all participants jump on the bull at the same time. The participants are gathered together. There is always an understanding amongst them that one would try to embrace the bull that runs out (if any one joins / jumps over and above the person mutually agreed, then such other person is disqualified). Rest of the participants give way and wait for their turn with the next bull. Having been part of this sport, am sure about this practice!

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
How is milk production by a cow and aggressiveness by a bull (in Jallikattu) related?
This, IMHO is the science behind Pedigree! (The best off-springs, down the line generation, which can benefit all)

Last edited by yogeshbala : 19th January 2017 at 17:08.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:08   #70
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Oh god! News and Social Media are awash with this and tbhp too

I could not care less. I am not going to see it and nor am i going to participate in it ever. But instead of banning it PETA/Govt/SC should be spending time in the villages and towns of Tamil Nadu and educate the people about it and maybe just maybe a couple of generations later it would just vanish or they would realize that it is not such a bad thing after all and let it be...

It's a matter of regional pride and throwback to the days of old when man tests his mettle against animals. You can't get into a cage with a lion can you so the bull is apt. It's a fight for glory and status. The human victor is hailed and so is the animal victor/owner of the animal.

Sati/Child marriages et all were outlawed and accepted since the people knew it was bad. But in today's world where social media and whatsapp forwards drum up passions it's an onerous task.

Watching the debates on cnn/times gives me a headache.

What i dont understand is why is this suddenly a big national issue? Don't we have far more significant issues to work on?

Last edited by deathwalkr : 19th January 2017 at 17:10.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:13   #71
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

The Supreme court may have thought after all the arguments it was presented with.

a) Killing animals for meat is cruel. True. If we stop killing animals many people's food choices and habits are affected. Besides, meat is the only source of protein for many strata of the society. Banning affects a lot of primary needs.
b) Using animals for farming, transportation etc is cruel. True. If we stop this, many people's livelihood will be affected. There are unmotorable roads across India. Banning affects a lot of primary needs.
c) Jallikkatu is argued as cruel. If we stop that, breeding of native cow breeds are affected, apparently as per the arguments. But wait this can always be done in other ways. Pretty much no primary need is affected.

Jallikkattu can be banned without affecting anybody's livelihood. Preserving culture, preserving native breeds, finding the strongest bull, getting maximum milk, finding the bravest human being etc must be worked by the elected Govt as per constitutional guidelines.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:16   #72
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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What i dont understand is why is this suddenly a big national issue? Don't we have far more significant issues to work on?
Guess, this is one of our pride and identity and we do not want to lose it at any costs!
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:16   #73
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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This, IMHO is the science behind Pedigree! (The best off-springs, down the line generation, which can benefit all)
The best character to look for in breeding any domestic animal may not be aggression. If you need animals for farming, milk, transportation, the most aggressive one is not right.
If you need animals for Jallikkattu in future, obviously you need to spot the most aggressive one and preserve its lineage.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:23   #74
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
The best character to look for in breeding any domestic animal may not be aggression. If you need animals for farming, milk, transportation, the most aggressive one is not right.
If you need animals for Jallikkattu in future, obviously you need to spot the most aggressive one and preserve its lineage.
Again, if I have communicated wrongly, I regret the same.

To be clear, Jallikattu is not about aggression. I do agree that some people (the Bull Owners) make the bulls aggressive, just to ensure that their pride is not lost in the sport. If no one is able to embrace the bull, then the bull and its owner is declared winner. And how can this be achieved, by making the bull aggressive. However, this as per the sport is not allowed and all steps are taken to avoid it.

In the same line, the current request of the people of Tamil Nadu is not restrict the sport, but only to regulate it. Avoid such wrong / ill practices in the sport and everyone is happy to co-operate.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:27   #75
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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The strongest cattles are selected worldwide for breeding through proper scientific methods. Not through such bull fights. There are many other ways to show the strength of a human male. A person who could hang on to a bull's back doesn't make him the strongest. Do you really think a person who could hang on to a bull is really the strongest?
Our ancient tradition is much more advanced than the current modern science. First of all this is not a fight, its a sport/practice.

I agree that there are several ways to show the strength of a human. But in our ancient times, this is how they played to showcase the strength of a human as well as bull. We had lot of such games to show case the power of human to prove that he/she is stronger amongst the crowd and that also for stronger next generation. In the current world we do beauty contest and body building contest which are psychologically derived from our older traditions.

My point is not about the person hanging on to a bull's back is stronger. we had much matured way to play the sport which I have explained already. You are talking under the impression of current version of bull being released to a massive crowd and every one trying hang on the bull. I'm still standing against the current version of Jallikattu.

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How can you say that hanging on to a bull and untying something from its neck is not torture?
We have lot of games in our world with dogs and horses. We use horse for travel and transport which is still existing in India. Does that mean horses are happy to carry us and climb mountains. This is also a game such that none of the participants gets injured, it was played with such governance and guidance, not now. If you have the current version in mind, all my points will appear nonsense.

If you are really against such tortures, your first opposition should be for killing cows for meat.

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I dont work for PETA, but how can you say that it is a conspiracy to eradicate native breeds? SC banned Jallikattu after hearing the other side too, right? Then why proof was not shown to SC, that PETA was working to eradicate the breed? Why not ask the govt to provide funding for protection of native breeds? Is Jallikattu the only way to protect native breeds?
Our govt is running with political leaders who are running behind vote bank. Response to our traditional things, and culture from them is a known thing. Our govt approved a methane project in river delta areas. You can search in internet to see what methane project will do to the land and the circumstances. Farmers and local people protested against that project and stopped. Traditional things getting destroyed by the so called modern sciences and new generation inventions are terrible.

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Do you really believe that the milk provided by breeds in other countries are inferior to ours? If yes, what makes you think so? How is milk production by a cow and aggressiveness by a bull (in Jallikattu) related?
Milk production by a cow and bulls health are related. Like human, its about genes and healthy breed we are developing against the natural illness and lifestyle threats. Stronger bull for next generation healthy cows. I'm not saying current version Jallikattu is the only way to identify. But the basic logic behind Jallikattu is not torturing bulls, its not a blood game at all.

Without having the right understanding of our ancient practices we are losing a lot. Like the turmeric kind of Indian ayurvedic herbals patented by some other country. We had lot of Indian breeds which produces A2 type milk. And our breed used to produce less milk compared the jersey breeds A1 type milk. But the health benefits are innumerable. But the advanced developed countries are finding such treasures and taking such breeds to their country and now we got jersey breeds all over in India.

To know more about our country breeds milk (A2 type) and other country breeds (A1 type), please read this links.

http://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/a1-...matter-1414225
http://indianexpress.com/article/lif...afest-variant/
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