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Old 19th January 2017, 17:30   #76
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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Again, if I have communicated wrongly, I regret the same.

To be clear, Jallikattu is not about aggression. I do agree that some people (the Bull Owners) make the bulls aggressive, just to ensure that their pride is not lost in the sport. If no one is able to embrace the bull, then the bull and its owner is declared winner. And how can this be achieved, by making the bull aggressive. However, this as per the sport is not allowed and all steps are taken to avoid it.
Cows and bulls, unlike their wild cousins in the forest are generally more peaceful. They have evolved that way and of course with manual interference in selectively breeding out the badly behaved ones. Of course, it makes sense because you need animals to work for you and not to create trouble managing.

From your update above, I dont get one point -- if the sport is about finding a winner who can embrace an aggressive bull, it goes without saying that you need aggression in the bulls. Isnt "making bulls aggressive" kind of written into the code for the sport then ?

Without a naturally aggressive bull, there is no sport, right ? If the bull is not naturally aggressive, you need to taunt it to make it charge, which is downright cruelty.

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
We have lot of games in our world with dogs and horses. We use horse for travel and transport which is still existing in India. Does that mean horses are happy to carry us and climb mountains. This is also a game such that none of the participants gets injured, it was played with such governance and guidance, not now. If you have the current version in mind, all my points will appear nonsense.

If you are really against such tortures, your first opposition should be for killing cows for meat.


Milk production by a cow and bulls health are related. Like human, its about genes and healthy breed we are developing against the natural illness and lifestyle threats. Stronger bull for next generation healthy cows. I'm not saying current version Jallikattu is the only way to identify. But the basic logic behind Jallikattu is not torturing bulls, its not a blood game at all.

Without having the right understanding of our ancient practices we are losing a lot. Like the turmeric kind of Indian ayurvedic herbals patented by some other country. We had lot of Indian breeds which produces A2 type milk. And our breed used to produce less milk compared the jersey breeds A1 type milk. But the health benefits are innumerable. But the advanced developed countries are finding such treasures and taking such breeds to their country and now we got jersey breeds all over in India.

To know more about our country breeds milk (A2 type) and other country breeds (A1 type), please read this links.

http://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/a1-...matter-1414225
http://indianexpress.com/article/lif...afest-variant/
I dont know how the parallel between eating meat, drinking milk, using animals for transportation and games are evolved at.
Meat and milk is a type of protein that many in the world cannot do without because of economic circumstances. It is necessary.
Using animals for transportation is the same way. There are unmotorable roads all across India. It is for a reason that animals are used.

Of course, circuses, game shows all of these have no such rational reason to prevail.
Jallikkattu should be compared only with games, not with primary needs.

I have no clue the A2 milk theory is linked to the bull game. Cows with A2 milk can be bred very well without having any bull used for any game. The best domestic animal is certainly the least aggressive one. And strong genes, healthy genes etc are not determined by 5 minutes of aggression. The strongest bull in Jallikkattu ( looks and aggression) can be created by chemical injections, but they are far from healthy. There are human examples, I dont think I need to explain that side.

Last edited by Zappo : 19th January 2017 at 18:41. Reason: No back to back posts please. Use the Edit button to add content to the previous post in the first 30 minutes.
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Old 19th January 2017, 17:42   #77
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal View Post
if the sport is about finding a winner who can embrace an aggressive bull
Should read "embracing a bull" and not "embrace an aggressive bull".

The bull, as explained earlier, is made aggressive by some bull owners to avoid the embracing by any one and this is not allowed in the sport. There have been so many instances where the bulls have come into the arena and stood just like that! (which again is part of the sport)

And if you further ask why would a bull run without any reason, then my answer would be that its their nature.(of course they are initially driven through the gate and thereafter its the bulls choice as it is on it own, till the exit)
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Old 19th January 2017, 18:22   #78
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Apart from the question of right / wrong, the question of need and don't need also needs to be understood.

Our constitution provides us a right to protect each of our respective culture and tradition. It is also a fact that law evolved from culture and not the vice versa.
SC has, in case of conflict, given precedence to Art 21 over any other fundamental right. Here too, right to preserve ones culture under Art 29 is not superior to Art 21. SC has expanded Art 21 to include prohibition of any disturbance to the environment, including animals.

Since this involves a constitutional right, majority decision doesnt matter.

Also, I have seen many arguing that Tamil culture is in danger because Jallikattu is banned. Tamil culture is a strong with much deeper foundations than many others in India. So just banning Jallikattu will not have any effect on Tamil culture.

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Then isn't milking a cow, torture? This may be tried with a lion / tiger, if milking is considered a kind act!

If holding / embracing the bull is cruel, then so is milking the cow.
Here is where need vs want comes. Milking cow provides nutrition to people. What does hanging on to a bull gives?

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Just because one person has used chili powder or bitten the bull's tail does not make the entire sport illegal. Also, a closer look on the sport would make you understand that not all participants jump on the bull at the same time. The participants are gathered together. There is always an understanding amongst them that one would try to embrace the bull that runs out (if any one joins / jumps over and above the person mutually agreed, then such other person is disqualified). Rest of the participants give way and wait for their turn with the next bull. Having been part of this sport, am sure about this practice!
One or many doesnt matter. They are hanging on to an agitated bull. I dont want to comment on whether that is cruel or not, but it is very violent.

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This, IMHO is the science behind Pedigree! (The best off-springs, down the line generation, which can benefit all)
Aggression and milk production down the line has no correlation.
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Old 19th January 2017, 18:42   #79
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
SC has, in case of conflict, given precedence to Art 21 over any other fundamental right. Here too, right to preserve ones culture under Art 29 is not superior to Art 21. SC has expanded Art 21 to include prohibition of any disturbance to the environment, including animals.

Since this involves a constitutional right, majority decision doesnt matter.
But where and how is Art. 21 impacted here? Which citizens life and liberty is curtailed or at peril?

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Also, I have seen many arguing that Tamil culture is in danger because Jallikattu is banned. Tamil culture is a strong with much deeper foundations than many others in India. So just banning Jallikattu will not have any effect on Tamil culture.
Thanks for acknowledging the deep roots and the richness of the Tamil Culture, but that does not mean we give up on our tradition and practice, which harms no one.


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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Here is where need vs want comes. Milking cow provides nutrition to people. What does hanging on to a bull gives?
Pride!

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
One or many doesnt matter. They are hanging on to an agitated bull. I dont want to comment on whether that is cruel or not, but it is very violent.
Perceptions differ.


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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Aggression and milk production down the line has no correlation.
There is no aggression and I have explained in one of my subsequent posts. This is an absolute misconception. These superior bulls are of a rich pedigree and it shows in the milk production. Being a consumer of cow milk and not packet milk, would help better understand the difference (particularly these breeds - the thickness of the milk and the taste would say it all!).
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Old 19th January 2017, 18:51   #80
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
Our ancient tradition is much more advanced than the current modern science.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean to say modern scientific practises are inferior to ancient practises?

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
My point is not about the person hanging on to a bull's back is stronger. we had much matured way to play the sport which I have explained already. You are talking under the impression of current version of bull being released to a massive crowd and every one trying hang on the bull. I'm still standing against the current version of Jallikattu.
The point is, the bull has to be aggressive for the sport(?) to even occur. Without an aggressive bull, anyone can go and hug the bull. It doesnt matter if it is the current version or not. Making a bull aggressive and running behind it and hanging on to it is not exactly petting.


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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
We have lot of games in our world with dogs and horses. We use horse for travel and transport which is still existing in India. Does that mean horses are happy to carry us and climb mountains.
I am not a fan of dog shows. But horse cart and bullock cart help people in transportation. I am not sure Jallikattu has any benefits.

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
This is also a game such that none of the participants gets injured, it was played with such governance and guidance, not now. If you have the current version in mind, all my points will appear nonsense.
How can you say that hugging an aggressive bull will not cause injuries? It doesnt matter if it is the current version or the older version, if the bull is aggressive, chances of injury/death is high.


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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
If you are really against such tortures, your first opposition should be for killing cows for meat.
Why is that? Why do I have to oppose all other evils before opposing Jallikattu? Is there any hierarchy for cruelty?

Also, I dont think they torture bulls before killing them.

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
Our govt is running with political leaders who are running behind vote bank. Response to our traditional things, and culture from them is a known thing.
Jallikattu ban is by the SC. Current state or national govts have no role in this.

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
Milk production by a cow and bulls health are related. Like human, its about genes and healthy breed we are developing against the natural illness and lifestyle threats. Stronger bull for next generation healthy cows. I'm not saying current version Jallikattu is the only way to identify. But the basic logic behind Jallikattu is not torturing bulls, its not a blood game at all.
I agree, milk production and cow's health is related. But I dont think aggression and milk production are related.

There are much stronger but docile bulls than the ones that participate in Jallikattu. You can very well use that for breeding. No need for aggressive bulls for milk production.

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Originally Posted by EPMV View Post
Without having the right understanding of our ancient practices we are losing a lot. Like the turmeric kind of Indian ayurvedic herbals patented by some other country. We had lot of Indian breeds which produces A2 type milk. And our breed used to produce less milk compared the jersey breeds A1 type milk. But the health benefits are innumerable. But the advanced developed countries are finding such treasures and taking such breeds to their country and now we got jersey breeds all over in India.
A2 casein being superior to A1 casein is not conclusively proven. Infact a European Food Safety Authority study found insufficient evidence.

Link

Also, i have read the links you have posted. It only says that genetically altered breeds produce milk with A1 casein. Nothing about Indian milk being superior. Purer breeds in western countries too produce the A2 casein.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:05   #81
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Should read "embracing a bull" and not "embrace an aggressive bull".

The bull, as explained earlier, is made aggressive by some bull owners to avoid the embracing by any one and this is not allowed in the sport. There have been so many instances where the bulls have come into the arena and stood just like that! (which again is part of the sport)

And if you further ask why would a bull run without any reason, then my answer would be that its their nature.(of course they are initially driven through the gate and thereafter its the bulls choice as it is on it own, till the exit)
If the bull is as calm as a cow, I dont know how it evolves into a sport even. If the bull goes into the "arena" and waits there, without doing anything, does the owner win or get booed down ? Obviously, everybody would be able to embrace a calm bull, so everybody wins ? Or the owner of the calm bull loses ? I am just trying to understand the rationale behind suggesting aggressiveness is not part of the sport.

When a bull is pushed thru a gate in front of a thousand screaming observers, it must be terrified to the core to start running. I am only speaking about the calm bulls I have lived with, used for transportation. I dont know if there is a particular breed that has the instinct of running just because it chooses to run.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:09   #82
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
The point is, the bull has to be aggressive for the sport(?) to even occur.
We all know how a dog behaves with its owner and with the outsiders, does it mean that it is aggressive? No, Definitely Not. It is its nature. Similarly, a bull can and would run, when driven, as it is its nature. There have been instances when the bulls were let out of the gate, it would automatically reach its home, without any one to guide it. These are its nature.

Again I would repeat, there is no aggression involved in this sport and it is an absolute and manipulated misconception. I also agree that some people had indulged in cruel practice, but not all and the spirit of the sport is also not with such cruel intention.

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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Jallikattu ban is by the SC. Current state or national govts have no role in this.
The name of BULL has been included in the list of animals, which are to be prohibited from being used in circuss / exhibition / sports. The court does not make law, it only helps in interpreting / implementing the law and guides the Executive in the direction of enforcing it. Hence, for all that a court says, it is only from the rule book, which belongs to the government. Addition of Bulls to the list was done by the government.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:16   #83
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
But where and how is Art. 21 impacted here? Which citizens life and liberty is curtailed or at peril?
From the judgment Link

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Article 21 of the Constitution, while safeguarding the rights of humans, protects life and the word “life” has been given an expanded definition and any disturbance from the basic environment which includes all forms of life, including animal life, which are necessary for human life, fall within the meaning of Article 21 of the Constitution.
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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Thanks for acknowledging the deep roots and the richness of the Tamil Culture, but that does not mean we give up on our tradition and practice, which harms no one.
Look at my location, and do i sound like a non tamil? Maybe I do.

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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
Pride!
I am not sure if pride is above this: “The universe along with its creatures belongs to the land. No creature is superior to any other. Human beings should not be above nature. Let no one species encroach over the rights and privileges of other species.”


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Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
There is no aggression and I have explained in one of my subsequent posts. This is an absolute misconception. These superior bulls are of a rich pedigree and it shows in the milk production. Being a consumer of cow milk and not packet milk, would help better understand the difference (particularly these breeds - the thickness of the milk and the taste would say it all!).
If there is no aggression, then why is the bull always running? Why do the men hang on to the bull instead of just hugging? Why so many deaths? 43 lives lost to jallikattu

Also, there are other ways to breed superior bulls. Superiority of unpasteurised cow milk compared to packet milk is questionable.


Some of the cruelties mentioned in the judgment:

Quote:
Ear Cutting/Mutilation At least 80 per cent of the bulls observed had their ears cut, with three-fourths of the external ear pinna absent. When asked about the reason for the mutilation, many bull owners explained that by cutting the ear, the animal would be able to hear sounds even from the back, which they deemed to be very important while the animals are in the jallikattu arena.

Biting a Bull’s Tail On many occasions, bulls’ tails bitten by the organizers and owners of the animals in the waiting area and inside the vadi vassal.

Twisting a Bull’s Tail Owners routinely beat the bulls and twist their tails in order to induce fear and pain while they are in the waiting area and the vadi vassal.

Using Irritants Irritant solutions were rubbed into the eyes and noses of bulls inside the vadi vassal in order to agitate them.

Using Nose Ropes Nose ropes were frequently pulled, yanked or tightened in order to control bulls before they were released into arenas and collection yards. Some animals were even bleeding from the nose as a result of injuries caused by pulling the rope.

Forcing Bulls to Move Sideways The animals were forced to move sideways at a slow pace for more than eight hours over a distance of approximately 500 to 1000 metres.

Forcing Bulls to Drink Liquids On many occasions, bulls were forced to drink fluids that were likely liquor. Animals’ heads were raised by pulling on the nose ropes, and the fluids were forced into their mouths using a plastic bottle.
Many more are mentioned in the judgment.

Last edited by deerhunter : 19th January 2017 at 19:22.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:20   #84
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

I do not want to get into arguments in this forum. But request others not to disgrace the sentiments of an entire state. I will refrain from further posts on this issue except the one following.
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Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Why is that? Why do I have to oppose all other evils before opposing Jallikattu? Is there any hierarchy for cruelty?
The concern is why there is no such severe steps against other evils.

Quote:
Also, I dont think they torture bulls before killing them.
Oh really. So killing without torture is acceptable then? Honarary killing of animals?

Quote:
I am not sure Jallikattu has any benefits.
Quote:
There are much stronger but docile bulls than the ones that participate in Jallikattu. You can very well use that for breeding. No need for aggressive bulls for milk production.
Fact behind Jallikattu, got this from FB Post, worth reading:

Quote:
Guys, I have had doubts related to how Jallikattu can help with preservation of native breeds and why can't breeders raise these even without events like Jallikattu. I was curious and enquired many people who were supporting Jallikattu. The answers that I got like it helps with financing the bull were not convincing. The only convincing answer in favor of Jallikattu was that it must be held for cultural reasons which most of the people parroted. But none of them were able to point me out to the actual reasons why this was beneficial. The videos that I was pointed out to described in great detail the advantages of A2 milk and how the preservation of native breeds which have the gene for producing A2 milk is important but none of them addressed the important question - How does Jallikattu help in their preservation and what is in it for native breeders. After seeing Senapathy's replies in an interview and after talking to Raja Manickam, I have finally managed to convince myself that Jallikattu is not just important from a cultural point of view but is more important from a farmer's point of view as it helps in preservation of native breeds. Here is my summary of how it helps. It is a long read but it will help the majority of those youngsters who are seeking such answers themselves and would enable them to be in a better position to defend the practice.

A little bit of background is necessary before understanding this.

There are two types of beta-casein protein which are the dominant casein proteins in cow's milk: A1 and A2 protein. Initially all cows produced milk rich in A2 protein. But 5000 years back when migration started happening to Europe, a genetic mutation caused cattle taken to Europe to produce milk where both A1 and A2 protein were present in approximately equal amounts or where A1 protein dominated. Most of the breeds in Europe, US and Australia produce milk rich in A1 protein while native breeds in Asia and Africa produce milk rich in A2 protein. But after effects of colonization and artificial insemination caused these differences to disappear and interbreeding of cattle resulted in cows' milk in Asia and Africa to also have both proteins. But pure breeds (ones with A2 milk) still do exist in Asia and Africa.

Scientific research has established the differences in the way the human digestive system (and digestive enzymes) processes these two proteins. The digestive enzymes react to these proteins very differently. Based on these differences, many research articles have arrived at the conclusion (not established beyond reasonable doubt) that A1 milk protein could be the cause for various chronic diseases like type-1 diabetes and so on. There exists research to the contrary as well i.e. there is no correlation between A1 protein and chronic diseases. But the majoritarian view at the moment is that A2 milk is more beneficial than A1 milk. Here is a link to one such research paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3475924/).

There is one more important point to be made here. When we interbreed a bull and a cow (and if one or both of them were an offspring of a cow that produced milk rich in A1 protein) then the new offspring will also have this trait. It has been scientifically proven that the gene which causes cows to produce milk rich in A1 protein is a dominant gene and hence all offsprings will also have this trait.

In India there are 37 native breeds (there were 150 a century ago) and of these 36 have the A2 protein gene in them. The only breed Malvi (common in Maharashtra) has the gene for A1 protein. But this bull is mostly used for ploughing and cows bred with this bull are average milk producers and hence not a cause for major concern. That essentially means that all the 6 native breeds found in Tamilnadu have the A2 protein gene in them which makes it all the more important for us to preserve them.

Now before we address why Jallikattu helps in preserving native breed, let us understand what will happen if all these native breeds become extinct. We will then have to interbreed and rely heavily on artificial insemination. I have already mentioned the problems with inter breeding above. Artificial insemination is an expensive process and we rely on semen imported from countries like US, Australia, Denmark and New Zealand from Jersey bulls and other such breed known to have A1 protein as the dominant gene. This essentially means that our generation and future generation will then have to live with milk rich in A1 protein and also the associated problems like type1 - diabetes, autism and so on. The other disadvantage with artificial insemination is that the offspring will not be healthy as its genetic pool lacks the genes that are required for it to adapt to the climate and local changes which a native breed has in a higher proportion.

Now this brings into picture an MNC, A2 Milk Company with presence in US, Australia and New Zealand. This company holds patents for trivial things like genetically testing whether a cow has an A1 gene or A2 gene. But what is disturbing is the patent that they hold for artificial insemination of A2 gene bull's semen. They hold the patent for this method which causes A2 gene to become the dominant gene as opposed to A1 which happens naturally. It suppresses the dominant tendency of A1 gene. Now if all native breeds in India were destroyed then we may have to either make do with A1 milk or we may have to pay a hefty royalty to A2 Milk company for using its patented technique to produce cows rich in A2 gene. Now this is what is bothering most of these cattle breeders in TamilNadu. The question that is being raised is that when our breeds are perfectly capable of producing A2 milk, why must be force ourselves to be a slave to some other MNC company holding a patent for this. They also accuse this MNC of funding PETA which is unsubstantiated. But this organisation has been donating generously to PETA in US, Australia and New Zealand which is suspicious but doesn't establish that they are behind the protest in India.

Now let us address why Jallikattu helps in preserving our native breed (I got this information from Senapathy and Raja Manickam).

In TamilNadu, breeders rear bulls with the intention of showcasing them in Jallikattu. Most of the farmers can't afford to raise these bulls and are hence reliant on these breeders or on the common temple bull which is reared by the entire village rather than a single breeder. The bulls that fare well in the Jallikattu arena are in constant demand for servicing the cows. So we can think of Jallikattu as a marketplace for these bulls. Now this still doesn't answer as to why Jallikattu alone can help in this and why can't breeders breed these native bulls irrespective of whether Jallikattu happens or not.

To understand that we will have to understand the chronology of events that lead to Jallikattu and events that happen thereafter. Jallikattu is held during Pongal time (i.e. mid January), the strong bulls are identified and mated with cows. After this the farming season starts. After harvesting is done, this cycle starts again where the breeders showcase their bulls in Jallikattu events. People with a keen eye for this then make note of the strongest bulls and then seek them out later in what is known as a sandhai (marketplace) in Tamil

Now how does Jallikattu help in the process? The bulls used for mating need to be virile. During the mating season (which is typically after Pongal), these bulls need to be at the top of their game i.e. they must be secreting all the necessary male hormones, experience adrenaline rush and also a fast beating heart. This is where Jallikattu comes in picture. The time when the bull is released from the Vaadi Vaasal (the small narrow gate from which the bulls are released) and till the time it manages to reach the other end (if it is not subdued) causes it to experience a great adrenaline rush which then boosts it's testosterone levels and also keeps its heart beating at a rate faster than normal levels. This increases their virility and this is one of the most fundamental of all necessities for selective breeding. Can this be done without an activity like Jallikattu? Possibly but then the number of matings a bull can accomplish decreases significantly. Jallikattu helps in increasing this which is of utmost importance to a farmer's wellbeing. Also because artificial insemination is not adapted for native breeds, the banning of an event like Jallikattu will lead to these native breeds getting destroyed which would then force our hands to rely on artificial insemination the very process which the farmers shunned to begin with.

In places where events like Jallikattu are not held, the male calves (which are essentially useless unless there is demand for tasks like ploughing) are slaughtered. but in places where Jallikattu is held, these calves are held on to for the purpose of showcasing them and establishing their superiority.

Now that convinces me of the necessity for an event like Jalikattu. Now I can truly empathise with these farmers and their struggle to retain this cultural event.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:27   #85
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Looks like we humans love to believe that all other living creatures feel and behave similar to us, and have same life priorities as us.

Perhaps the horses do enjoy running on tracks?
Perhaps the lions/roosters do enjoy mauling other males?
Perhaps the testosterone charged bulls do enjoy being aggressive?
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:29   #86
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

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Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash View Post
I do not want to get into arguments in this forum. But request others not to disgrace the sentiments of an entire state. I will refrain from further posts on this issue except the one following.
Why do you think people who oppose Jallikattu is against Tamil culture? It is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash View Post
The concern is why there is no such severe steps against other evils.
I am against animal "torture" in all forms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash View Post
Oh really. So killing without torture is acceptable then? Honarary killing of animals?
There is something known as 'Doctrine of Necessity'. Clearly given in the SC judgment. Link


Quote:
Originally Posted by vijayvelprakash View Post
Fact behind Jallikattu, got this from FB Post, worth reading:
A2 casein superior to A1 is not scientifically proven. Link
Also, most Indian breeds, irrespective of use in Jallikattu, produces A2 casein.
If it is not economically feasible to breed these bulls without Jallikattu, then govt funding is the route to go. Protests should be for govt funding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogeshbala View Post
The name of BULL has been included in the list of animals, which are to be prohibited from being used in circuss / exhibition / sports. The court does not make law, it only helps in interpreting / implementing the law and guides the Executive in the direction of enforcing it. Hence, for all that a court says, it is only from the rule book, which belongs to the government. Addition of Bulls to the list was done by the government.
The court has considered Art 21, along with all those laws. So it doesnt matter if the law includes bull or not. The court can ban it under Art 21, even if the word bull was not used.

Last edited by deerhunter : 19th January 2017 at 19:49.
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Old 19th January 2017, 19:59   #87
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Quote:
Originally Posted by deerhunter View Post
Some of the cruelties mentioned in the judgment:

Many more are mentioned in the judgment.
Though I agree with that, Would still reiterate that banning is not the solution. Let it be regulated. Why can't it be regulated?

Illegal practices in a sport does not render the sport, as such, illegal.
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Old 19th January 2017, 20:29   #88
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Try banning Isle of man TT.

The emotions will be similar.

Banning is not the solution, conduct Jallikattu with more regulation.
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Old 19th January 2017, 23:10   #89
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

Came across this post on Facebook and thought this might clear the air for at least a few. I don't intend to fuel any new debates, but just sharing this in hope that those who aren't aware would at least think!

Quote:
For people who are against Jallikattu and all animal activists out there - So, what is Jallikattu? There is a lot more to it !!
- Long long ago, approximately 4000 years back, there were young herdsmen herding the cattle. The herd is on a move, while suddenly a horny bull becomes unruly and runs away from the herd. A young herder chases the bull and holds on to its hump until it surrenders and returns back to the herd. This was called 'Eru Thazhuvuthal' which means 'Embracing the bull'. Years later, this became a sport during the Nayaks Rule where gold coins were wrapped in a piece of cloth and tied to bull's horns. And the player who manages to hold the bull's hump for a considerable time could untie the cloth and take those coins as a reward. This sport was called Sallikattu (Salli - Coins | Kattu - Tied), which later became Jallikattu.

How is it conducted these days?
- The 6 feet beast comes out of a narrow passage called 'Vaadi Vaasal'. The experienced bull steps out calm and composed, and stares at the players gathered there. Trust me, you would pee on your pants on that devilish look. This killing machine moves slowly forward towards the exit gazing at those players and the player who is brave enough jumps over and gets hold of the hump. One wrong move with this demon, You end up getting your intestines ripped off by those razor sharp horns. In modern days, there are no coins, the player who holds the hump for a considerable time within those 100 metres wins prizes.

Is there animal cruelty involved in Jallikattu?
- Yes, there were instances where there was cruelty to the bulls. That's when the Court and Government interfered and put some stringent regulations under Tamil Nadu Regulation of Jallikattu Act, 2009.

Are there stringent rules now?
- Yes, there are. No twisting tails. No holding horns. No doping the bulls. No chilli powder. No sharp objects. Blood test for all the bulls. Health certificate for the bulls. Videotaping the event. Time of the whole event reduced to 3 hours. Uniforms to tamers. Stages to avoid injury of spectators. And hell a lot of other rules. However, there are stray incidents here and there. But these are closely monitored by the Government.

Should Jallikattu be banned?
- No. If Jallikattu is banned, these bulls will be sent to slaughterhouses since the farmers will be unable to afford the maintenance cost. It is said that these bulls are slaughtered in Kerala and exported to Gulf and Western Countries by beef traders as there is a huge demand for indigenous breeds. Our current law says, using a bull for Jallikattu is 'Cruel', but they are 'Okay' with slaughtering and eating the same. Confusing, right?

How can Jallikattu save these bulls?
- The only job of Bulls is to impregnate the cows in the village. These bad boys do nothing other than this, and their maintenance cost is very high. Jallikattu helps in recovering their maintenance cost once in a year. If there is no Jallikattu, there is no point in maintaining these bulls. Thanks to artificial insemination. And they are not even used for ploughing. Thanks to Tractors.

Is there any other way to maintain these bulls other than Jallikattu?
- Unfortunately, there aren't other working ways. That's the main reason why many other States lost their indigenous cattle breeds. India had over 130 cattle breeds a century ago, now it has declined to 37.

Is there a conspiracy behind banning Jallikattu or is it a cooked up story by the usual Illuminati group?
- I'm no conspiracy theorist, but still, I'm a bit inclined towards this argument observing the recent happenings and reading many articles backing this claim. Western breed cows like Jersey are made by Genetic Mutation and they produce A1 milk which is highly toxic. The milk is sucked through machines, and these cows undergo tremendous pain. Whereas, the indigenous cows yield only lesser quantity of milk, but the A2 milk they yield is very rich in nutrients and very healthy. There are a lot of studies to back this claim. So banning Jallikattu could reduce the native bull population, thereby making the entire breed extinct in few years. So, we'll be forced to buy Western breed cows without any option. The Jallikattu organizers claim that PETA and Animal Welfare Board of India are lobbied by these corporates to get Jallikattu banned legally. And they have some tangible proofs to back their claim.

Is PETA bad?
- I have high regards on PETA. PETA has protested for a lot of good causes in India against animal cruelty. But in recent days, to justify their stand against Jallikattu, they still keep circulating unverified footages taken before 2009 and try to kindle the emotions of animal lovers. There are stringent rules after 2009 Court verdict and such cruelty is a thing of past. But seeing them so desperate to ban Jallikattu even now makes me wonder if there is a motive behind their move. Instead, they could fight for making the law even more stringent. Seems fair right?

How PETA and Animal Rights Activists failed?
- They succeeded in getting the Jallikattu ban calling it as cruelty, which may seem right from their perspective. But they did not care about the aftermath like arranging the retirement facilities for these bulls, devising some ways to stop the native breed from going extinct, and stopping these bulls from being sent to slaughterhouses. As far as I've seen, most Animal Rights Activists are very nice emotionally gullible people, but they go by media reports than knowing the ground reality. They are not only to be blamed.

Why are these Animal Welfare Organizations against Hindu culture? Why can't they ban slaughter during Eid?
- For F*** sake, please stop bringing your religious shit into this. Jallikattu is NOT a Hindu culture. We are Indians. Period.

In a progressive society, does these age-old traditions make any sense?
- India's greatness and uniqueness lie in her rich heritage and great diversity. Economic growth is imperative but not at the cost of losing one's identity.

Tamil Nationalism? Should we separate from India since the Supreme Court and Central Government doesn't understand Tamil people's emotions?
- It's shocking to see many of my friends changing their Whatsapp DPs to an inverted Indian flag with Anti - India slogans. Would you leave your mother since she is not able to concentrate much on you as you're the youngest kid? Guys, stop this bullshit, please.

How did the government implement this ban?
- In 2011, a notification was issued by the Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change to ban Monkeys, Bears, Panthers, Tigers, Lions and Bulls from Performing. So, based on this notification, Jallikattu was banned in 2014 under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, 1960 (PCA) as Bulls are used for Performing.

How can we revoke the ban for Jallikattu?
- PCA needs to be amended by the Central Government.

Will the ban be revoked?
- Students have taken up this issue across Tamil Nadu and it has become a large-scale movement. Now, the State Government and Central Government has no other option than amending the act. Or it is going to be a serious law and order issue in the state.

Future of Jallikattu?
- Soon, the ban will be revoked, and this sport is going to become world famous. Thanks to AWBI / PETA for blowing this issue out of proportion.

#shared #protectbulls #weneedindigenousbulls
Source: FB
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Old 20th January 2017, 09:10   #90
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Default re: Jallikattu in Tamil Nadu - SC verdict delayed, state ordinance presented to President

I just see it from this perspective:

1. If an animal is angry it shows aggression. Be it a horse / camel / bovine class. Common beasts of burden domesticated by humans over the ages. It is clearly visible. One does not really need to "ask" this to the animal.
2. If the above are used for any task (what ever they may be) and purposeful aggression is not induced, then it is fine.
3. If aggression is activated in an animal (again for any reason) then it is incorrect. Be it needling them with a stick, attaching tin cans to the tails, or merely kicking the animal.

The Jallikattu process should be cycled through the above three points. One can decide.

From what I noticed:

1. The tails are pulled.
2. Irritant powder is thrown in the eyes.
3. Toxic liquids are administrated.

Maybe if aspects like these are nullified, then in a "bullish" way, Jallikattu will be equivalent to 4-5 humans playing with a pet dog, but on a larger scale.

Okay, what about killing them for food. This really does not hold value as a fair comparison. Humans have killed other living "beings" from the ages. Should we allow it or not? War, is such an example. The argument goes on forever.

If we try to control a certain aspect of a system, is it necessary to have the whole system stable? It is a circular reference, difficult to ascertain, since it varies system to system. Jallikattu vs. killing animals is such an argument.

Last edited by asingh1977 : 20th January 2017 at 09:13.
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