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Old 16th June 2008, 12:56   #76
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There is not even an iota of historical proof for the Aryan invasion theory.
Thats surprising. IMHO now a days proof (that supports or destroys this theory) can be found by analyzing genetics over generations.

Anybody from such technical background here?
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:06   #77
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Its very easy to blame the "foreign hand", and thats the reason 50 years after the WWII a battered country like Japan is sitting on the pinnacle of technology, and in India still thousands of farmers kill themselves every year.
If only instead of playing blame game people started doing something, things will improve.
That about summarizes it pretty well. Its easy to take the easy way out and blame the foreign hand for everything. That earns us zilch but we absolve ourselves of all responsibilities.

The way Japan moved ahead to reach the pinnacle of successin most fields (not only in technology) inspite of all their natural handicaps even though they were almost bombed out of the planet should be an eye opener for all. Going by the logic of the vanquished being subjected to all the ills in this world Japan should have been down in the dumps today.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:10   #78
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Its very easy to blame the "foreign hand", and thats the reason 50 years after the WWII a battered country like Japan is sitting on the pinnacle of technology, and in India still thousands of farmers kill themselves every year.
If only instead of playing blame game people started doing something, things will improve.
Tanveer, I feel like standing up and applauding. Very well put indeed.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:13   #79
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
But the Aryan invasion was just a theory made by some European guy (not even a historian) which found the fancy of lot of people and it spread. There is not even an iota of historical proof for the Aryan invasion theory.
they never found the horses and chariots they came riding on.

Apparently if one looks at the western civilization and the welsh and Irish ones in particular. We find lots of mention of Blue Gods and Godesses that resemble very closely to one that we have heard often. Danu the Irish Godess that was responsible for creation of a pri-mordial civilization closely resembles our own Danu (Godess of danava).

So there is some proof that civilization spread westerward from the East.

European revisionists during the colonial era were continually ashamed by this fact and wanted to revise history and created a mythical Aryan race.

Quote:
Thats surprising. IMHO now a days proof (that supports or destroys this theory) can be found by analyzing genetics over generations.

Anybody from such technical background here?
Quote:
Peopling of India: Abstracts of genetic studies

genetics

The grand narrative which emerges from these studies is clear and emphatic. Peopling of India was an indigenous and autochthonous evolution. There are markers of gene flows OUT of India. All so-called jaati or vanavaasi groups are of the same gene pool of India. This is consistent with the work, Indus script encodes mleccha speech which demonstrates the essential semantic unity of all bharatiya or Indian languages in a linguistic area of Sarasvati civilization from ca. 7500 BCE.

genetics
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:15   #80
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Its very easy to blame the "foreign hand", and thats the reason 50 years after the WWII a battered country like Japan is sitting on the pinnacle of technology, and in India still thousands of farmers kill themselves every year.
If only instead of playing blame game people started doing something, things will improve.
Partly due to their enterprise and hard work. And majorly due to the favorable terms given to them post-second world war.

You have to look into the Rockefeller and western elite's connection with Japan immidiately post WWII.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:16   #81
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My understanding was that Aryans did not Invade (there was no war). But they did come to settle and unsettle.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:35   #82
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India has faced a few wars since independance.
It faces a proxy war from all its neighbors except maybe Bhutan.
While Pakistan and China would like to annex parts of India, Bangladesh sends in terroists. Sri Lanka' contributes refugees and Nepal extends logistics to the Maoists.

We spend a great deal of money on our defense systems and still suffer our bleeding borders. If this was not enough we have our own Naxal movements that can disrupt state capitals at ease.
We rank very high in Corruption and support parties and people who advocate hatred.

We are a great and glorious nation that still survives its lack of rule and order.
People get gun downed for traffic spats and non refusal to serve alcohal.

The taxation system puts a crushing blow on all salaried employees while rich land holding farmers driving their Audi' getting free power.

If the communists raise a hue and cry on the price rise we say they are doing too litle and if they cry hoarse for better wages for their unions we call them arrogant idiots with no touch of reality.

We are not racists, we are merely spoilt by our past masters.

Don't compare Japan with us.
They have only Japanese there
here we are tamilians, bihari', kanadigas, telugu', punjabis and so on.

You are comparing people belonging to one Nation with us who have a great culture that never thought us to be ONE.

How can a slave understand freedom.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:41   #83
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Never heard of a BJP book of history. But the Aryan invasion was just a theory made by some European guy (not even a historian) which found the fancy of lot of people and it spread. There is not even an iota of historical proof for the Aryan invasion theory.
Max Mueller. He himself agreed in the end that Aryan Invasion could not be proved conclusively.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:50   #84
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Shocking but true .
Any high profile place for that matter would opt for an NRI (who speaks accentuated English) instead of a normal Indian. The reason must be for the $/GBP weightage.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:51   #85
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Coming back to the present, I think its plain economics. Hotel Classic (http://www.nivalink.com/classic/index.html ) in Aurangabad quietly cancelled our booking for 5-6 rooms which were booked months in advance and gave it to foreigners so that they can earn extra $$$'s. The hotel tried to push us int ointo a cheaper alternative hotel. We had to flatly refuse, make threats about filing a police complaint for fraud before they relented and booked us into a hotel of comparable standards.

So in a practical sense, just be a little carefull while booking at a place frequented by foreign tourists. The lure of the $$$ is irresistble to some unscrupulous Indian Hoteliers.
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Old 16th June 2008, 13:51   #86
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
Don't compare Japan with us.
They have only Japanese there
here we are tamilians, bihari', kanadigas, telugu', punjabis and so on.

You are comparing people belonging to one Nation with us who have a great culture that never thought us to be ONE.

How can a slave understand freedom.
North Korea is the most Homogeneous society in the world today and they are not better than us. Society need not be "ONE" to progress.
India was Socially united before Mughals and British attempted to unify India politically. Today we are politically united but struggling to be unified otherwise.

I believe only a slave can understand freedom.
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Old 16th June 2008, 14:07   #87
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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
How can a slave understand freedom.
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I believe only a slave can understand freedom.
This is one of the best dialogues I have read on Team-BHP. Bravo!
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Old 16th June 2008, 14:14   #88
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I agree with several of Sam's views as mentioned in this post.

It is most certainly true that some of our own countrymen dont know how to receive a service in a gracious and appreciative manner. (No offense meant to anyone, but the old proverb "casting pearls before swine" comes to mind)

We definitely tend to mistreat waiters and service people - we shout and scream and demand service as our due and then to top it off, we do not tip decently or thank them politely. It is not always the moneyed classes who have an innate sense of grace and good manners, because many of them tend to bludgeon other people with their money, which in itself is crass and inexcusable behaviour!

We are guilty as anyone else for being racist and looking down on our own people, some of whom may not be as fortunate as we may be. We look down upon non-english speakers, accents, regional peculiarities and what not.

I also think it would be good to remind ourselves now and then that while God may have created Man in his own image, he certainly didn't clone Himself when he created us! Therefore, since we are NOT God, let us be a little humble and a little forbearing!

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
I've stayed away from this entire healthy argument. Simply because I'm not entirely sure how to react to it because I do not agree with everything said.

I'm not saying what is being discussed is not true and does not happen. I'm saying that often, there is more to it than simple racism. Again, I do not mean to demean or dismiss any of your points, but I have often found that the world's biggest racists are people who are not white.
Allow me to explain.

It has happened often in many of our lives that someone has been served out of turn and you have been offered a disservice or made to wait unnecessarily. What we do is turn to check who is being served before you. If it is an Indian, we're less angry. (I'm referring to the "you served a foreigner before me" situation) if it is a foreigner, it drives us mad. We scream racism.

It happens. Especially in the hospitality industry. They prefer foreigners. Not always because they are foreigners. But because they treat them well, smile and say thank you for every fork and knife placed, a thank you for every plate of food placed on the table, a compliment for good service and an excellent tip.
The foreigners do this in their own country too.

It is not our culture to keep smiling and thanking waiters throughout the service. Many do it, but the percentage is much lower. We come from a country where it is common to call a steward by snapping your fingers or making funny sounds like chhh chhh or worse, a kissing sound. We tip horribly, often leaving tips of Rs. 100/- on a 5000/-+ bill in a 5 star hotel.
Anywhere in the world, at a 5 star, a 10% is expected. And yet if a hotel/restaurant charges us 10% service charge, we get all cheesed off!

In the hospitality industry, foreigners are easier to please, behave nicer and pay well with less fuss. It happens that an automatic preference is given. Please do not flame me for this, I am not saying it is OK, I am simply trying to make you understand that it isn't really a deal with who is superior and who is not.
A waiter/manager/steward will automatically drift towards a client who is easier to please, speaks well and politely and pays well too. On the other hand the typical Indian client is loud, aggressive, service-hungry and often very rude.

A waiter/manager/steward and so on is human too. All humans react differently to different treatments meted out.

We live in a country where the knowledge of English automatically classifies you as educated/ illiterate. It takes one second to judge a persons education, unlike anywhere else in the world (An uneducated American or Brit or German speaks the same language as the educated ones)
We always look up to Indian people who speak English in this country. It is then natural to assume that the foreigners who speak English natively would be worth looking up to, even at a higher level. More often than not, it is so sadly untrue. But it does happen.

My comments are generalized and not specific. I do not wish to make sweeping statements and/or aggravate those who feel the way they do. I am simply trying to make a point that it is not always about colour or race.

It is wrong, nonetheless.

I've never faced any discrimination in my life and this is why I was uncomfortable to comment on it. I've seen it happen and it bothers me too. Not having been on the receiving end, I am probably not qualified enough to comment on this issue and all my views may be completely wrong. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, this was not my intention.
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Old 16th June 2008, 14:23   #89
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Thats surprising. IMHO now a days proof (that supports or destroys this theory) can be found by analyzing genetics over generations.
There is a book (and a TV series) called "Journey of Man". It attempts to trace how humans came out of Africa and settled in various places all over the world. They basically took DNA samples from all over the world and tried to construct a tree that allowed them to make some deductions. Very interesting read (I have not seen the TV series). I don't believe they focussed their attention on so called Aryan Invasion, but if they had, we would have had an interesting result.
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Old 16th June 2008, 14:28   #90
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Quote:
How can a slave understand freedom.
Quote:
I believe only a slave can understand freedom.
Only a slave who has memory of freedom can understand freedom.

So by extension those slaves who are under perpetual slavery do not value or understand freedom.

both the quoted statements are true.
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