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Old 17th June 2008, 10:43   #106
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Wow, There has been some activity here after my Post on the Oberoi's Rude Experience with me.

Well - Sam has put it in a very nice way and what he says is very correct. I agree 100 % with him. BUT what this thread initially was about the attitude of 5* Hotels to us Indians.

Everyone here has a story to tell but if we get deep in the topic of daily attitude towards Bai's and Waiters then it is a very long debate and no one wins.

What we are talking here is these Idiotic / Moronic Star Hotels giving VIP preference to Foreigners. I agree they should and even I would if I run a hotel, BUT what I would also do is give equal or better service to Indians as well.

I mean a person staying in the Oberoi would be paying the same amount as a foreigner does, In fact off late Indians are paying more, some of the Rates of Raddission & Grand in Delhi have 30 % off for Internet booking on travelasia.com. We Indians hardly use this service and book off the phone so in actual fact we pay much more, we are never made aware of these offers. It's like these Hotels just do not want us to stay. It's true - Trust me !!

Example - Oberoi's again - This one is 3 weeks old -

I am a 12 year old Priveleged member of Trident Hotels, One of their biggest customers booking more than 100 nights a year. Recently I needed to book rooms for my cousins from Punjab ( Very Very Rich People having BMW's & Cayennes ), I called their hotel and said I need to book 4 rooms for 2 nights for my cousins, they said No Rooms Available ( I get a Huge Discount on all rooms !! )

I thought OK -I called my cousins back and they said they had checked a few minutes back and Rooms were available ( Of course at full tarriff and no discounts )

I called them back and spoke to someone else ( Its a call centre - Oberoi Central Reservations in Delhi ), I said I needed a room for one of my Usual English Clients - They said - Yes available ( at discounted rates ) !!!!

Now tell me - Is that not Pure Discrimaination among Indians & Foreigners. I of course went ahead and gave them a piece of my mind. Did not book rooms there and booked at a nice Indian Chain - ITC Hotels, Paid twice but the service we got was awesome.

So it happens every day, every minute. What Tanveer said in the beginning about the Salon was absolutely True.

Here is another recent one - This one takes the Cherry on the Cake - 7 days back -

My client from UK was here last week and he usually gets me a few bottles of Jack Daniels from Duty Free, He usually does that from Heathrow or Swarnabhumi ( BKK ), this time he thought of getting it from India. He walked in Duty Free here and was not able to pay Indian Cash but only Dollars or Pounds at ridiculous Exchange Rates.

When I travel, I always face a problem paying in Indian Cash. I never face this problem in UK Heathrow, they accept their own currency But why not here ??

This system sucks big time !!

Last edited by vkochar : 17th June 2008 at 10:45.
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Old 17th June 2008, 10:54   #107
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though there is a dollar element in this debate. It seems they (5*s) need a particular amount of dollar revenue to qualify for the EPCG or whatever.

but there is also undoubtedly another factor of the McCaulayized brown elite (the one fed on Aryan/English superiority stories, and who accepted it as gospel truth) mirroring the very same attitudes towards Indians that the colonial Brits had. It seem Oberoi's mirrors that McCaulayized attitude as its policy and the Taj Group (which is in the same boat as Oberoi) tries its best to serve Indians.

the discrepancy shows that such attitudes are entirely avoidable but some people want to discriminate on purpose and take great pleasure in doing so. Can this matter be forwarded to MNS, Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal types for suitable action.
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Old 17th June 2008, 11:04   #108
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Since most of us are car owners here it is safe to assume that most of us are reasonably well off. So it comes as a surprise when we are discriminated against. However it is not very different from the way we treat our maids, waiters, watchmen or pedestrians on the road.

Discrimination is in our blood. We make distinction on the basis of caste, money, power, religion, region, language, culture, skin color, job, handicap, seniority, voice level and accent. We destroy roads, railways, burn vehicles. We break queues, road rules and we call for bandhs. We can't tolerate people from other states.

I'm sorry if I have been a bit sarcastic. We may be warm but I feel we are a bit far from becoming civilized.
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Old 17th June 2008, 11:09   #109
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One thing I would have to agree with - the level of service & hospitality at the Taj is positively stunning. Any Taj property I have been to has had almost impeccable (a few niggles here and there, but we're all human) and equal service to all of its clients.
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Old 17th June 2008, 11:47   #110
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No offense to anyone!
I have travelled a bit and found out over the years that indians are the most discriminatory against indians itself.
there are instances in australai, america, europe and malaysia where i have noticed the ill treatment by indians towards fellow indians.
This thread confirms this even more.. well gotta accept it like we have accepted the corruption.
Else everyone has to get together and start taking a stand against it.

like I said no offense
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Old 17th June 2008, 13:11   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watashi75 View Post
Since most of us are car owners here it is safe to assume that most of us are reasonably well off. So it comes as a surprise when we are discriminated against. However it is not very different from the way we treat our maids, waiters, watchmen or pedestrians on the road.

Discrimination is in our blood. We make distinction on the basis of caste, money, power, religion, region, language, culture, skin color, job, handicap, seniority, voice level and accent. We destroy roads, railways, burn vehicles. We break queues, road rules and we call for bandhs. We can't tolerate people from other states.

I'm sorry if I have been a bit sarcastic. We may be warm but I feel we are a bit far from becoming civilized.
you can call it discrimination. But I will prefer to call it lack of social cohesion.

Also the discrimination against fellow citizens can also be caused by low-self esteem. Because when we do not value ourselves highly, our image of ourselves tends to rub off on our treatment of others like us as well.
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Old 17th June 2008, 13:37   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Tanveer name this Hotel and I promise you it will be i the newspapers. I think they deserve this sort of publicity.
We are proud to be Indians and it is shameful that there are still some of us who are smitten by the fair skin.
....

It not that I have something against the foreigners but why discriminate your own lot.
Voice your opinions against such useless establishments.
Our country is to blame! as we need the dollars. We give the dollar guys special privileges, hence the establishments preference to dollar payments!



Quote:
Originally Posted by nishantgandhi View Post
Although, I am entirely against racial or any other discrimination, but there is another perspective here which cannot be ignored. It is partly due to the Govt/RBI's fault because of which you cant entirely blame the hotel.

I agree.
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Old 17th June 2008, 13:51   #113
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Certainly there were a lot of invasions Aryan or otherwise. What does it prove? Not so much I think.

It is not really important. Where are the Aryans now? And, who are they? White people, Westerners? Many of them are dark skinned and/or brown-eyed. Ask them and most of them do not know what an Aryan is. And, most of them know nothing of the history of India. Most of them could not show you India on a world map.

And, perhaps the British did all kinds of manipulations to control the Indian populace. However, the fact that one country conquers another does in no way prove that one culture is racially or culturally superior unless one subscribes to just this notion, that military might is the proof of superiority. Most Westerners, whites, do not subscribe to this notion today. It simply proves that the conquerors were stronger militarily at the time and inclined to conquest, nothing more. Gun powder, the printing press and the magnetic compass were the three most formidable colonizing tools of the Europeans. They were all invented by Asians, if one wishes to persist in the might makes right genre.

You will find diversity in attitudes toward other cultures in the West particularly in the more developed nations. The East coast of the United States is a cold place, and I mean the people, toward everybody in publc. It takes awhile to make friends with them. But the Southeast is extremely friendly and open....if you are white. An Indian there can get into some real trouble quickly in the rural small towns there. The last PUBLIC lynching of a black man was in 1936, not so long ago. The Midwest and West coast is much more open and tolerant. Also, if you see old film clips of the black civil rights movement in the southern U.S. you will see that about 1 in 8 of the marchers and demonstrators who literally laid their lives on the line, were white people of conscience. You never know what attitude you may get from a white person.

I must also tell you the incredible deference and fauning nature of some Indians to me has been embarassing at times. I am a white from the U.S. and I did not ask for this. And, I am troubled when I see taxi wallas and others who do not have the money to waste purchasing and putting skin lightener on their faces. Other Indians have treated me with great deference to my face and then have tried mightily to cheat me and steal every rupee they can from me; I am outcast and sub-human, after all, a rich sh*t.

Mis-treatment of Indians by other Indians at any place where Westerners frequent is about money and who they think has it. Believe me, I may get some priviliges here as a white that others do not but it has been an absolute war to get a fair deal, market value price, for most things here for me. And many times I have been "befriended" by an Indian, invited to his house for super etc. only to finally, at the end of the evening, have to listen to an impassioned sales pitch or business proposition or hear about someone's sick auntie who needs money. "Yeah, buddy thanks for the warm hospitality."

If you never know what attitude you are going to get from a white person then I have to tell you that it has been my experience that I never know what an Indian has in mind when we first meet. But I am learning. And I am still here among you and enjoying it.
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Old 17th June 2008, 14:47   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Also the discrimination against fellow citizens can also be caused by low-self esteem. Because when we do not value ourselves highly, our image of ourselves tends to rub off on our treatment of others like us as well.
I agree. Low self-esteem is one of the major reason for discriminatory behavior.
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Old 17th June 2008, 19:04   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan
If you never know what attitude you are going to get from a white person then I have to tell you that it has been my experience that I never know what an Indian has in mind when we first meet.
It's a very diverse nation. As a rule we expect the unexpected.

It keeps us mentally alert you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan
And, perhaps the British did all kinds of manipulations to control the Indian populace. However, the fact that one country conquers another does in no way prove that one culture is racially or culturally superior unless one subscribes to just this notion, that military might is the proof of superiority. Most Westerners, whites, do not subscribe to this notion today. It simply proves that the conquerors were stronger militarily at the time and inclined to conquest, nothing more. Gun powder, the printing press and the magnetic compass were the three most formidable colonizing tools of the Europeans. They were all invented by Asians, if one wishes to persist in the might makes right genre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan
Most Westerners, whites, do not subscribe to this notion today.
that is because they do not need to. The damage by their forefathers has been more than sufficient to ensure their prosperity for generations.

though ofcourse they do not think on those lines. lol

the initial part of the British rule was about loot and plunder. though that loot continues even today albeit in other forms, but that is besides the point. once they collected enough to significantly raise the standard of living in Britain and give muscle to their armada from the loot accumulated mainly from India and other colonies, (it set the foundation for the modern western infra that folks on this forum swoon upon) they became desperate to justify it morally.

that is where the civlizing part came in and as a result the attention was focussed on the spreading western civilization, the light of Christianity amongst the dark heathens (it is a project that continues till today) etc. how the Aryans invaded, came on horses and spread about replacing dark (and thus naturally evil or so it is implied) natives and other stories. It is primarily that amongst other activities that caused the dissonance that is being discussed here.
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Old 18th June 2008, 01:08   #116
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Was reading all the posts in this thread today. Very valid points by both Sam and Centro-P.

I think it's the big cultural difference we are talking about here. If you live in the west (North America as an example), you see a lot of unnecessary greetings (wassup, how's it going etc.) to strangers which is unheard of in the eastern cultures (India, China etc.). Although it has significantly reduced in the last 50 years (before you had to greet every lady by kissing her on the hand and say goodbye in the same way), I think it's based on the social structure of both the cultures.

While is western society is more individualistic (many kids move out after they are 18-19, they pay themselves for their college diploma/degree, parents do not have any say in their marriage etc.), eastern cultures are more family oriented (there are exceptions on both sides though).

Anyway back to the main topic, I think in this day and age, it's money which matters the most. If the original poster was Mr. Ambani or Dr. Mallya or someone like that, he would not have had any problems getting an appointment. At the same time, if the foreigner guy in the hotel was wearing shorts and an old T shirt and did not tip at all, he will be frowned upon as well. It's just that many people have developed a prejudice towards certain sections of society and hence they base their judgements on that.

In North America you get to see all kinds of people and sometimes it's quite funny. I've seen Indian immigrants who will not pay an extra cent (towards tips, gratuities etc.), Indian immigrants pulling up in a Lexus and greeted better than their "white" counterparts, and same thing with Caucasian and African-American (or African-Canadian) people as well.
So you really can't blame them.

As a joke, as 50 Cent once said: "Get Rich or Die Tryin".
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Old 18th June 2008, 01:24   #117
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Oh Jesus lurker, why do you keep going on about the Brits and the whites and the West? It's over. Do you see black people still fighting segregation?

Get over it, man. We're talking about Indians screwing Indians here, because of their obsession with foreigners. Have you ever seen a white guy come to India and say 'Hey, I'm white, so treat me better than your brethren'? No! It's just us Indians who wallow like dogs over a dollar or white skin. That's the issue, and it's because we have NO PRIDE. Not because Macaulay or Mayo or Ketchup had some master plan going.

Sorry for the rant, but it puzzles and irritates me when obviously well-educated and intelligent people start this whole conspiracy-foreign-hand theory.
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Old 18th June 2008, 01:25   #118
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Though I agree in principle with arguments against discrimination, With all honesty & modesty. I should say
  • I've never been subjected to any discrimination in any 5***** hotels in BANGALORE (Including Oberoi!!! Sorry Vcochar, Oberoi Bangalore seems to be on a different management rules)
  • Several times every year I book rooms for friends / clients from abroad (some of them firangis) I've never been any instance of discrimination.
  • I always book tables in my name (Very very desi "kalyan") and never been refused admission / reservation in any hotels. Rooms are a different matter altogether in Bangalore, I've not been able to get reservation even for regular firangies sometimes.
Though discrimination is an issue in non-5* hotels / business', I feel its not to be generalised.

Like I put it in my previous post, discrimination is an inborn / built-in factor in our constitution.

cheerscheers:
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Old 18th June 2008, 01:28   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
One thing I would have to agree with - the level of service & hospitality at the Taj is positively stunning. Any Taj property I have been to has had almost impeccable (a few niggles here and there, but we're all human) and equal service to all of its clients.
The Tatas, they have pride.
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Old 18th June 2008, 01:30   #120
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Historically our own people have been scr****g us over & over again. While the English & everyone else has been taking advantage over that factor.

If our own people had stuck to their own creed, history would've been written differently, and in a better way.

cheers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Oh Jesus lurker, why do you keep going on about the Brits and the whites and the West? It's over. Do you see black people still fighting segregation?

Get over it, man. We're talking about Indians screwing Indians here, because of their obsession with foreigners. Have you ever seen a white guy come to India and say 'Hey, I'm white, so treat me better than your brethren'? No! It's just us Indians who wallow like dogs over a dollar or white skin. That's the issue, and it's because we have NO PRIDE. Not because Macaulay or Mayo or Ketchup had some master plan going.

Sorry for the rant, but it puzzles and irritates me when obviously well-educated and intelligent people start this whole conspiracy-foreign-hand theory.
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