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Old 4th September 2008, 18:40   #136
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agentsmith2 : War will be fought by proxies, and economics.
Like China is doing by re-routing the Bramhaputra ?
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Old 4th September 2008, 18:59   #137
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We are perhaps the only species on planet earth that requires population control. I think mother nature takes care of every other species. Humans became so smart that we stopped the process of evolution. We have tried to manipulate everything around us according to our whims and fancies. The path of our progress is like the involute of a circle, the final destiny of which is self-destruction. And we will in all probability destroy the earth as well in the process. Like a friend of mine said, humans are the cancer cells of mother nature. For thousands of years, nature took care of the population growth by its own methods. Coming back to the question of controlling the population growth, I agree we could and perhaps we should do it to compensate for all the medical wonders that we have brought about which has brought down the mortality rate. But it is my personal opinion that abortion is not the answer to population control. I feel we have NO right to take away the life of someone else, even if it is a mistake and even if it is still in the womb. There are so many people waiting to get a child for adoption. It is a very sensitive issue and the discussions can run into pages. Hence I stop.
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Old 4th September 2008, 19:30   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Like China is doing by re-routing the Bramhaputra ?
China is the new US. India is the old Soviet. So yes, if China holds steady, they'll manage to break us apart in 30-40 years.

Maharastrians don't like North Indians. Tamil Nadu is entrenched in a battle with Karnataka over Cauvery. Mallus hate Tamilians. Punjab wants to get free. JK is proxy free. Assamese won't pay Tax. Mizoram doesn't care about India. Arunachal has chinese presence. Bihar is a baggage. UP contributes to excess population. MH has no infrastructure. Gujarat is pariah. WB doesn't want to contribute to growth. Everybody south of Vindhyas hates North Indian for their trouble.

And 630 districts are under naxalities.

While Mumbaikars resent Taxation without Representation.

Population problem is the easiest to tackle. Unity, is the difficult one.
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Old 4th September 2008, 19:31   #139
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Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
A Child, is not a mistake.
A Life, is not a problem to be solved.
That I agree. However, the context of the thread was such.
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Old 4th September 2008, 19:48   #140
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
That I agree. However, the context of the thread was such.
Likewise, I agree that contraception/voluntary sterilsation is essential, but advocating medical termination of pregnancy is like advertising for a contract killer.
I also admit that I have no right to deny a woman her right to abortion
(Is it a Right? Is it right?)
Killing is not the solution to a resource crunch.

in india, practically every drug is available over the counter without prescription. its worse than selling loaded guns at the supermarket because, these drugs will be used on defenceless foetuses. To correct a mistake that happened during "fun"

Lets just discuss contraception and keep away from abortion.
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Old 4th September 2008, 20:27   #141
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Education and incentive is the way forward for population control. There are still a lot of people in India who think that children are a gift of god. While it is, but not in the literal sense. Population being at the root of many difficulties India is facing, this needs to be more seriously debated and Goverment should come up with innovative solutions.

Cheers

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Old 4th September 2008, 21:14   #142
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Quote:
agentsmith2 : Population problem is the easiest to tackle. Unity, is the difficult one.
You can put all the Maharashtrians into Maharashtra, Tamilians into TN, Punjabi's & Kashmiri's in their respective states. And yet, you can bet your life on these people fighting amongst themselves when resources become scarce.

I doubt these fights were there a few decades ago, when people just started moving around.

If each group is fighting the others, it's because they are fighting other people. And in any fight, allies are required. Language, religion, political ideologies etc are natural binding factors. It's natural for people with something common between them to bond.

But as you extend this line of thought, if the fight is between two religious groups - the smaller differences of language, state etc are forgotten. If it's between countries, then religion is also no biggie.


End of the day, once resources become dearer & scarcer, fights will happen. And resources deplete when they are used up, like an increasing population does.
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Old 4th September 2008, 21:25   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
You can put all the Maharashtrians into Maharashtra, Tamilians into TN, Punjabi's & Kashmiri's in their respective states. And yet, you can bet your life on these people fighting amongst themselves when resources become scarce.

I doubt these fights were there a few decades ago, when people just started moving around.

If each group is fighting the others, it's because they are fighting other people. And in any fight, allies are required. Language, religion, political ideologies etc are natural binding factors. It's natural for people with something common between them to bond.

But as you extend this line of thought, if the fight is between two religious groups - the smaller differences of language, state etc are forgotten. If it's between countries, then religion is also no biggie.


End of the day, once resources become dearer & scarcer, fights will happen. And resources deplete when they are used up, like an increasing population does.
Do you imply humans never fought a war when resources were NOT scarce ? Famines happened every couple of years pre-green revolution in India. IMHO, resources appear to be scarce now. But its much easier to feed oneself now, than it was in famine struck bengal in the 30s.

Aside that I don't see Chinese with their bn$ population fighting _this_ badly internally like we do. Must be something more than mere resources.
--
Disclaimer: Don't support china or their policy.
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Old 4th September 2008, 21:39   #144
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If the chinese had a similar density of population, they could have.

Fights are faster when there is diversity. China is not blessed with diversity - and - they controlled their state. Not like us.

Humans have fought wars when resources were not scarce - but it is so much more easier to fight when resources are scarce, (or begin to get so).


@Agentsmith, I also did not understand your reply in post #138 above. Which point in your post was in response to my comment about China re-routing the Bramhaputra ?


ps.: pls avoid quoting unless necessary. Esp in back to back posts, like we are doing here. We are discussing only one topic in this thread. Thanks !

Last edited by condor : 4th September 2008 at 21:56.
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Old 4th September 2008, 21:42   #145
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Damn... I wish my history was better, but I'm fairly sure that Bengal's famine was another of those British contributions to India.
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Old 5th September 2008, 00:23   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Agentsmith, I also did not understand your reply in post #138 above. Which point in your post was in response to my comment about China re-routing the Bramhaputra ?
This point:
Quote:
Like China is doing by re-routing the Bramhaputra ?

China is the new US. India is the old Soviet.
Refer to the original context where I'd pitted US vs Soviets and how Soviets were not destroyed by Nukes, but imploded from the inside.

Quote:
War will be fought by proxies, and economics. And ofcourse by creating internal issues.
My point was that population would be of little importance when the country itself falls apart.

Quote:
ps.: pls avoid quoting unless necessary. Esp in back to back posts, like we are doing here. We are discussing only one topic in this thread. Thanks !
Agreed about quoting, but we really digressed from population discussion to China. Quoting helps when one replies to someone on a specific discussion point - and doesn't make a general statement. I intended to reply to _your_ point, so quoted you. To give you an analogy from an offline group-discussion - when you look at a person & reply to his point - you're quoting that person. When you speak to the group at large - you are not.

Sorry for going offtopic. Obligatory emoticon follows:

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Old 5th September 2008, 07:46   #147
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Quote:
Like China is doing by re-routing the Bramhaputra ?

China is the new US... India is the old Soviet.
Quote:
agentsmith2 : where I'd pitted US vs Soviets and how Soviets were not destroyed by Nukes, but imploded from the inside.
Sorry, still not clear.

I hope you are aware that China is re-routing the Bramhaputra, to create a huge (an understatement) reservoir. This can be used to control how much (or little) water that India gets. I am not going to bet on them releasing water when we need it.

Quote:
agentsmith2 : Quoting helps .. on a specific discussion point
Just that quoting the entire message is not really needed. Quoting specific points helps a lot, to bring focus to the specific point being discussed. Thanks .. & lets' get back to the topic.

Last edited by condor : 5th September 2008 at 07:47.
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Old 5th September 2008, 09:25   #148
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I assumed Bramhaputra diversion was common knowledge - so took your point it in large context of India vs China. Yes, Bramhaputra diversion [Tsangpo project] has been in the works for quite some time. Some people call it the beginning of war on water.

Again - India China are not going to fight a nuke war. China is working actively to break India apart. Tsangpo project is one of the many such active programs China is working on. My point: Our population - whether big or small - is not going to help unless we stand united against this threat.
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Old 5th September 2008, 11:22   #149
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Our organisation had done a survey of published literature and research from various journals of repute. It conclusively showed enough evidence in India to show that a high literacy rate, especially in the case of women, correlates with low birth rate, low infant mortality rate (IMR) and increase in the rate of life expectancy.



The Public Report on Basic Education (PROBE, 1999) had reported that there is a trade-off between the number of children and the education of each child within the family. Demand for education can also increase if the perceived benefits of education increase.

The rate of fertility decline has also accelerated during the 1990s, caused by increases in women's education, falling infant mortality rates (IMRs), media exposure, and improved access and acceptance of contraception. As against the replacement level of fertility, i.e. corresponding to a total fertility rate (TFR) of 2.1, the TFR in India at national level was 4.5 in 1980-82, 3.7 in 1990-92, declining to 3.4 in 1995-97. During the period 1980-82 and 1995-97, the TFR declined from 4.8 to 3.7 in rural areas and from 3.4 to 2.5 in urban areas. An analysis of data from 115 low and middle-income countries indicates that educational level of adult females as well as generation and utilisation of new knowledge has a significant impact on reducing TFR and slowing the rate of population growth. A number of studies indicate a quantity-quality trade-off between numbers of children and the education (or quality) of children. Women in Kerala demonstrate the interplay of TFR and literacy rates. Between 1970 and 1992, Kerala’s TFR dropped from 4.1 to 2.0, the largest decline of any Indian state. By the end of the 1990s, the total fertility rate was down to about 1.8. The decline is significantly attributable to the high literacy rates amongst women in Kerala. The literacy rate of women in Kerala—at 87.9% in 2001—was the highest amongst women across all states in India.

Fertility is declining in India primarily because of its decline among illiterate women, and they are doing so because of the diffusion of the idea of having only a few children but investing more on their future. It has been contended that fertility decline is not only outpacing educational transition, but also contributing to it. Through a decomposition of the change in fertility differentials by education, it has been shown that more than half of the recent fertility decline is due to its decline among illiterate women. It has been further shown that a quantity-quality trade off is occurring as illiterate women are accepting contraception. They are observed to send more of their children to school, especially the first-born daughter, who perhaps gets released of the burden of taking care of younger siblings. It was found that the odds of sending children to school is about 50% higher among illiterate women who are using contraception compared to those who do not. The TFR is expected to decline to 2.6 during 2006-10, and 2.4 during 2011-15.
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Old 5th September 2008, 11:57   #150
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Quote:
agentsmith2 : I assumed Bramhaputra diversion was common knowledge ... Some people call it the beginning of war on water.
May not be so common - we havent seen anyone else responding to that point.

Speaking on war on water, I wont be surprised if we use the same tactic on our neighbors.

Quote:
agentsmith2 : My point: Our population - whether big or small - is not going to help unless we stand united against this threat.
Precisely. For that unity, we need to control our population so that people stop feeling threatened about their day-to-day struggle & survival, and that they can focus on the bigger things.

Quantity is not quality. Rather, Quantity reduces Quality. And any Quality processes practitioner can show you easily how difficult it is to consistently maintain quality, with increasing quantities.
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