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Old 27th August 2008, 16:20   #31
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Talking Sorry to be rude but this is the topic closest to my heart

I see a whole load of blah blah blah down here. Can you actually take concrete examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
More people = More earning power.

So large population of India must be considered blessing in disguise.


Instead of worrying about population control measures, Government must:
  1. Provide education to all (more children means more employment opportunities for teachers !!)
  2. Improve living standards (provide basic civic amenities to all - clean neighborhoods)
If 1 & 2 are done, population gets automatically controlled.
ok, let's do 1 - who gives jobs for all? What does one do with the educated unemployed masses who are now more disgruntled at having wasted years for an education that still does not afford a decent standard of living?
2. ok someone charitably spends money to provide amenities to all. How he recovers that money is another - whether people learn to respect/maintain freebies is another

... but the most illogical argument is that education and living standards improvement control population! Ha ha. Sorry my friend - it only comes with awareness imnsho - it comes with people realizing that there is a cost for each child they produce - it comes with mindset change that kids are not bhagwan ki den, not assets but are liabilities unless they get a good education/ upbringing.

to give you an example about freebies - there are more than enough charities who donate food in the slums in Delhi. However, getting that free food doesnt translate into savings of the slum dwellers because it just means that they just have endless ---, their kids are delivered free in a govt hosp, they get free medicines, they get free food often (i have seen cakes from taj being given away in slums), they get free clothes in donations, some NGO helps them write letters against eviction (done that in undergrad), and they become wage earners, or take minimum wage jobs in govt schemes and restart the cycle by being irresponsible baby machines like their fathers.

and who on teambhp wants a teacher's job for those strata of society anyways?

A simpler solution is to promote condoms as being sexy, to attack stereotypical notions of manhood, to spread scare of AIDS to such a crescendo that this category of people ask for condoms. Population control will be one minor benefit.

The cost of not bearing welfare/infrastructure for all those people, the consequent improvement in fiscal deficit, the consequent reduction in taxes, the lesser drain on public resources (less electricity pilferage, less water pilferage, less slums, less squatting on roads) will improve our economy manifold.

Condoms for nation growth, I say.

And saar, you, your opinion I normally respect, so I will just say that its rhetoric and non-factual

Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
somebody who really seems to understand the issue
population is really a blessing in disguise. its selfish pessimists who look at a large population as a problem.
like diabloo said
educate them and the population will get controlled with no special effort.
hasnt our birthrate come down from when we gained independence?

watch china, they have strictly enforced a one child policy. that is short sighted IMO.
it will affect their competitiveness in the labour market a few decades down the line.
Violent Acres, anyone?

/I have little against the rural traditionally exploited peasants. Its the urban slum dwellers who get my goat.
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Old 27th August 2008, 16:41   #32
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@phamilyman
I dont think anyone here is saying, breed like rabbits, its good for us!
I'm saying, we have an advantage too.
its not all bad.
1 billion in india is a tight fit. but we can get more breathing space if we use what is available correctly.

using legislation/force to reduce population is not right. we are a democracy.
Both china and india are benefiting from a huge population. can anyone deny that?

Living standards are rising. rapidly for the middle class, less rapidly for the poor. a gradual deceleration in population growth(which is happening anyway) is the best solution, rather than rapidly applying the brakes and causing the population pyramid to get top heavy.

this gradual deceleration in population growth is happening in india because of better education and a better life.

running around snipping peoples' vas deferens is definitely going to be counter productive(pun not intended)

Last edited by rippergeo : 27th August 2008 at 16:48.
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Old 27th August 2008, 16:49   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
With an increasing population, India is bound to be plagued by the problems that one sees in metros like inhuman population densities, overburdened transport systems, illegal encroachments etc. The solution is to tackle these problems rather than adopting measures to control population IMHO.
So you what you mean is to treat the symptoms but not the root cause of the disease ?
Sorry my friend, i totally disagree with you and Diabloo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
So where do you get the materials & physical resouces to achieve these two points ?

Remember, almost anything that you do uses something from the environment. The only exception is energy through solar sources. To harvest & use this energy also you will need material & things created from what's available in the environment.

So, to educate all & to provide health-care, you will use resources from the environment.

And where are these resources available ? out-side the cities. From water, air, land - everything's out there - which we are using up.

And more people means more efforts to do what you have suggested. More efforts means more resources.

What you said in your original post is not in-correct. But there is a bigger urgency - rather, an emergency - to get things done faster. The slow but quite sure method is not sufficient at this time.


Btw, even you need energy to create even the thoughts you have. So, you are using some resouces even to think ! There is no escaping it - the resources are limited, and demand is out-pacing not just the supply, but even the availability of the resources needed.
Great post! And very valid points.

The problem is, there are too many short-sighted people in our country, who think that we have unlimited supply of natural resources. Not too surprisingly, if you ask these people about terms like "Climate Change", environmental degradation, they are mum.

Slightly OT:

What must be understood, that with progress and economic boom, we are also paying a huge price of harming our environment, depleting natural resources, pollution, traffic mess, and what not! Its high time the youth of our country becomes aware and does more than just partying and drinking and working (what the media portrays)

As someone said in the topic, if we don't take measures, mother nature surely will. It always has, and will. And that won't be good for anyone of us.
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:00   #34
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All you educated well-meaning folks on this forum who have children of your own - did you consider adoption?
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:03   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post

using legislation/force to reduce population is not right. we are a democracy.
Both china and india are benefiting from a huge population. can anyone deny that?
yes, and what kinda jobs? As the rest of the world's cheap labor? ... and I'd leave it at that.

Consider the scandinavians instead. Wonderful progress given the meagre population and great prosperity for all.
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:09   #36
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I don't believe these strength in numbers policy when half the population is struggling to find the next meal. We are the privileged few. Our offices may have a surplus of educated work force. I guess we should look beyond our boundaries & see what is really happening. Even China's policy will not help India. We need a different approach.
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:12   #37
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oh and I must add for the likes of diablooo

India is experiencing jobless growth (please check budget speeches/opposition points). Its just that we love to put men everywhere that there's a modicum of growth. What you see is just consumption/infra driven stuff. Else GDP growth through mfg/services isnt creating as many jobs as it used to.

And baby factories are hard at work (an old time kam waali bai would now be 24, and she had her fifth kid three months back!)
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:21   #38
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An interesting article appeared in the media recently that India is heading to be the global leader in surrogacy too. So I guess despite the population explosion we still have a lot of vacant wombs
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:29   #39
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Quote:
rippergeo : Living standards are rising.
STANDARDS are rising. Not resource availability.

And rising standards = more material demands
= more resources requried to meet the requirements of those rising standards

And an increase in population only sends this demand for resouces into a BIG spiral.
Quote:
rippergeo : a gradual deceleration in population growth(which is happening anyway) is the best solution, rather than rapidly applying the brakes and causing the population pyramid to get top heavy.)
Any solution is good only when proportionate to the gravity of the situation & the problem. The way things are today, a gradual control will mostly likely become a classic example of "too little, too late".

Last edited by condor : 27th August 2008 at 17:30.
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Old 27th August 2008, 17:34   #40
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Quote:
Demographic transition is a global phenomenon; population growth is inevitable in the initial phases of the transition.

For India
the current phase of the demographic transition is both a challenge and an opportunity.
The challenge
is to ensure human development and optimum utilisation of human resources.
The opportunity
is to utilise available human resources to achieve rapid economic development and improvement in quality of
life.

Demographic transition does not occur in isolation. Simultaneously, there are ongoing economic transition,
education transition, health transition and reproductive health transition
.

All these affect human development.
If there is synergy between these transitions; the transitions can be completed rapidly; there will be
substantial improvement in human development and economic development.
this is what the national planning commission had to say about our population growth. I read the article, but took out the summary to post here.
the link is-
http://www.planningcommission.nic.in...wp_hwpaper.pdf

they managed to say what i wanted to say in a better way.

No one, denies the pressure on land or the environment. or the fact that people are still suffering.
I'm trying to say that we should use the oppurtunity that our population is giving us.

@phamilyman
every country, including scandinavian ones have gone through this phase. India's population momentum is much more than that of scandinavian countries, hence it will take longer than it took sweden to bring our juggernaut to a halt.

and about the facts-
the link, which is in PDF has the facts and graphs.
our birthrate has been falling. undeniably.
our death rate has been falling even faster.
that is mainly why our population continues to grow.

one more question to everyone.
what was the primary reason we limited the number of our children?
was it because, we thought 2 children is the best for us?
or
was it because- we thought 2 is best for our country?

the entire citizenry(all over the world) thinks the same way. we do what is best for ourselves. people have to be educated and made to see that lesser children means a better life, then force will become unnecessary

while these people are being educated, our population grows(unfortunately)
but it has its advantages(see link)

What I'm saying?
Education is the answer.
not force
not legislation

@condor
I agree that the gradual process of slowing down our population is going to put a massive strain on our country and even the world. But I dont agree with the statement that it is too little too late.
is the alternative, forced sterilisation? or imposing fines on a poor farmer who is already struggling to make ends meet?
what are the alternatives?

Last edited by rippergeo : 27th August 2008 at 17:52.
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Old 27th August 2008, 18:57   #41
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Two points I mentioned:
1. Education: need more schools, and teachers for those schools
2. Health: need more hospitals, and more doctors/nurses for those hospitals.

In all districts, taluks & villages, people must have easy access to education & health care.

To achieve this, I can't figure out why anybody must clear forest area and kill wild animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
So where do you get the materials & physical resouces to achieve these two points ?
Like anywhere else, entrepreneurs create the jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
ok, let's do 1 - who gives jobs for all? What does one do with the educated unemployed masses who are now more disgruntled at having wasted years for an education that still does not afford a decent standard of living?
No charity required by anybody. Govt spends tax money on education & health care.
Quote:
2. ok someone charitably spends money to provide amenities to all. How he recovers that money is another - whether people learn to respect/maintain freebies is another
Please ponder why rich people have less kids.
Quote:
... but the most illogical argument is that education and living standards improvement control population! Ha ha. Sorry my friend - it only comes with awareness imnsho
Thats true - Uneducated kid is a liability. Educated kid is an asset. Thats why the emphasis on education.
Quote:
it comes with people realizing that there is a cost for each child they produce - it comes with mindset change that kids are not bhagwan ki den, not assets but are liabilities unless they get a good education/ upbringing.
Your example is at micro level. What we are talking is at macro level.
Quote:
to give you an example about freebies - there are more than enough charities who donate food in the slums in Delhi. However, getting that free food doesnt translate into savings of the slum dwellers because it just means that they just have endless ---, their kids are delivered free in a govt hosp, they get free medicines, they get free food often (i have seen cakes from taj being given away in slums), they get free clothes in donations, some NGO helps them write letters against eviction (done that in undergrad), and they become wage earners, or take minimum wage jobs in govt schemes and restart the cycle by being irresponsible baby machines like their fathers.
If a teambhp member is unemployed but qualified for a teacher's job, he can take up teaching as a profession.
Quote:
and who on teambhp wants a teacher's job for those strata of society anyways?
Condoms prevent unwanted births - what about wanted births?
Quote:
A simpler solution is to promote condoms as being sexy, to attack stereotypical notions of manhood, to spread scare of AIDS to such a crescendo that this category of people ask for condoms. Population control will be one minor benefit.
Nobody limits a country's GDP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
If there is 100 Rs and 10 people - each gets 10 Rs [lower standard of living-current situation]

If there is 100 Rs and 5 people - each gets 20 Rs [higher standard of living]
With no education & no health care, even with 100 million, India will still be under developed.
Quote:
There needs to be a fine balance of population. For example not too less or not too high. India population is very high. For example, as an estimate, 500 Million may be an ideal population for india.

Last edited by diabloo : 27th August 2008 at 19:03.
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Old 28th August 2008, 00:31   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I'm a newcomer here, so please be kind if you have to let me know that I'm talking out of the wrong hole!

At least in the two Southern states that I have a small knowledge of, is it not the case that, where families would have had eight or nine or more (even until the poor woman was worn out with child bearing), now only have one or two, sometimes three?

I asked my wife recently, what about Roman Catholics (she is one)? Do they teach here that contraception is evil, like other places in the world? She said, "yes, but most people ignore it and adopt family planning".
The problem is more acute among the peasantry in the northern/central regions of India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiyags22 View Post
Indians especially the lower class (they are the ones currently lagging behind in general education also) need S** education with extra focus on contraceptives.
I don't know about lower classes and all, but the fact that you've censored the word sex would indicate how educated folk are shy of talking about it. How will anyone be able to overcome a population problem then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrag View Post
All you educated well-meaning folks on this forum who have children of your own - did you consider adoption?
Lol, do you notice how NO ONE has answered this?! Well said, hrag, well said!
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Old 28th August 2008, 01:54   #43
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Hi guys,

China too was faced with the same dilemma, it had and yet has most of its population in villages with more or less the same sym ptoms India has. Illiteracy, superstition and orthodox remedies for problems.

It did what was best for the country. Gave the people the best infrastructure, aggressively promoted industrialisation as its people were not the best educated nor could communicate with the world like our BPO savvy youngsters can.

They were faced with a problem which they have converted to their advantage as a nation.

A problem is only a problem when you do not count it as a resource. Like Dhirubhai said, "profit from the problem"

These are my views, apologies if I have not read through the various attachments and links as time wont permit to write a lot.

cheers and hail India.
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:13   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
I don't know about lower classes and all, but the fact that you've censored the word sex would indicate how educated folk are shy of talking about it. How will anyone be able to overcome a population problem then?
@V1p3r- I censored it because I was not sure if writing the word sex is acceptable in this forum. I always see BHPians writing A** for after sales service.

But your point is valid- even educated Indians are shy to talk about it with their own wives.

Thiyags
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:13   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
So you what you mean is to treat the symptoms but not the root cause of the disease ?
Sorry my friend, i totally disagree with you and Diabloo.
Firstly, I dont see people having kids as a disease. Even metaphorically.

Neither do I advocate that people in rural areas with little or no awareness about contraception and family planning should continue to knock up their womenfolk silly. Which is why I mentioned that education is indeed important. You and me may not be so irresponsible in such respects, and with education and awareness, we can expect the same from everyone once armed with information. Thrusting sterilization on somebody or imposing fines is not a solution. It just shows the inability and incompetence of whoever concerned to provide basic facilities to our populace. Daunting task, no doubt. But not impossible.

If I am told to obey a law that prohibits me from having a second child in the face of all this, I would take it very personally. I would like to make that choice myself.
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