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Old 30th August 2008, 12:21   #76
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post

Hey! How about giving a free radio with every operation?
It might work, but the current fad is DTH television.
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Old 30th August 2008, 14:17   #77
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As we are all aware our country is bursting at the seams. We have a massive population of 1.3Bn in a country that is one fifth the size of United States. Due to the large number of people, we have 75% of the population living below $2 a day. India is home to 1/3rd of the world's poor.

There is no denying that we have massive traffic issues and way too many cars than roads. I believe many of our problems are related to our large population. Effective control and reduction measures, if taken will benefit all of us a great deal.

I am starting this thread to brainstorm ideas which can BE PUT TO USE to effectively control our growing population. Because if we do not control it now eventually we will all pay, heck we are all paying right now.

Please do not say "nothing can be done" or "In India nothing will happen" things will happen if we make an effort, every small effort is a drop in the ocean.
First of all, India does not have a population problem.

Let's not fall prey to the western world view and their fear of increasing numbers of Hindustanis running over the world with its growing population.

We don't need a Sanjay Gandhi, nor any one of that dynasty.

We don't need China's example either. They are godless communists with no regard for human life or culture.

India has immense potential to be a world power and one of its key assets is human resources. An educated and empowered population can accomplish anything.

Let's not forget that Hindustan has had several centuries of slavery, degradation, invasion, ethnic cleansing, genocide, forced conversions to foreign religions and ideologies, mass slaughter, and foreign domination. While it is not good to accept a victim mentality, one needs to understand some of the underlying issues that have lead to present day India. Prior to all these centuries of domination, India was a center of power, education, learning, and immense wealth. This was the reason that foreign powers targeted India.

So getting over this recent history will take time, and the rest of the world's fear is that India really is a sleeping giant that may awake someday and achieve its fullest potential.
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Old 30th August 2008, 14:30   #78
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The current fad with a certain politician is free TVs --- and you don't even have to have any operation!

And some of those politicians don't even stop at one wife, let alone one kid!
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Originally Posted by RedMM340
First of all, India does not have a population problem.

Let's not fall prey to the western world view and their fear of increasing numbers of Hindustanis running over the world with its growing population.
Ahh, so all it needs is a good rant about the West and the Godless Communists, eh?

Not that I'm denying anything: it is true that the Brits (my lot), for a start, drained India dry, and only got out when there was no more blood left to suck.

But what has it to do with the current conversation?

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 30th August 2008 at 14:36.
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Old 30th August 2008, 14:57   #79
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acknowledge the past, by all means, but don't use it as an easy get out of jail card for the failings of what should be a major superpower, which instead is mired in gross mismanagement at almost every level of govt. everytime i visit, i always have the same argument with my uncle, "the british destroyed this country, they took everything!" get over it i say, that ended 60 years ago, since then germany and japan rose from the ashes and became superpowers in their own right, why? willpower, the need to become greater than the outside worlds perception of what had passed before.

the population issue is one that arrived long after the union jack was lowered, and far more variables than any one person can post come into play, some being the migration of communities to the cities due to a failing agriculture policy. historic colonialism doesn't play apart in the shameful record of child mortality, or female infanticide, doesnt explain the rise in suicides of the have nots, as the haves speed by in their imported autos.

the population issue, is huge, it's also complex, and a wriggly beast. one thing i am certain of is that the country has the space, the means and the will to sort through it, but at the moment, and for the near future, i can't see anyone taking a serious intrest.
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Old 30th August 2008, 15:06   #80
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
The current fad with a certain politician is free TVs --- and you don't even have to have any operation!

And some of those politicians don't even stop at one wife, let alone one kid!Ahh, so all it needs is a good rant about the West and the Godless Communists, eh?

Not that I'm denying anything: it is true that the Brits (my lot), for a start, drained India dry, and only got out when there was no more blood left to suck.

But what has it to do with the current conversation?
It has a lot to do with the current conversation. This entire discussion is based on a Western premise that India is overpopulated. I completely reject this concept. In fact I will proudly say that more Indians = better world.

Put it this way, what does it say about our psychology when we prescribe to the idea that there are too many of our own kind? What type of self image do Indian have if they believe that the world will be better if there were less of their own type?

The British knew very well how to colonize and dominate entire civilizations, and one of their techniques was to include psychological warfare to misinform and denigrate the subjugated civilization by rewriting their history and crafting history books taught in schools so that entire generations would learn the British world view.

Unfortunately this is the case in India even now. We have not written our own history, but learn history through the lens of the Western World View. This is the real reason that Indian believe that they have a population problem. The reason that we have a huge population in poverty is partly due to what you mentioned above (British blood sucking for centuries).

There is no population problem. There is a poverty and education problem. The real question is how does India leverage its largest assest (its population).
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Old 30th August 2008, 15:38   #81
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Let me clarify:

1.When I say education, its as much for males as much for females. Ensure the lady lands a job and her focus is away from child-bearing.

2. When I say health, its reducing infant mortality, child-mortality rates, so that couples worry more about well-being of their children rather than worry about survival of their children.

Note: Many have mentioned about contraceptives. Please note that these prevent 'unwanted' births. What about 'wanted' births?

Note: Ill effects of one-child policy (not an exhaustive list):

1. Imagine your family tree with only eldest child and rest isn't there. How many quality people would be missing.

2. 4-2-1 problem: One child has to take care of 2 parents and 4 grand parents. Its a financial burden on one child. So the Govt must provide old-age care, which again a financial burden on Govt.

3. Parent's over-indulge their only-child: Might lead to obesity and unsocial behavior.

4. Gender ratio: Since male child is preferred and number of children is limited to one, people will indulge in selective abortion and this greatly affects gender ratio.

5. Orphans: Fearing state, people might abandon their 2nd & subsequent kids and again its upto the Govt to take care of them.

6. Loop hole: Since this law applies to India, many will travel abroad, have kids and come back.

7. Corruption: Pay bribe and it show that you have only one kid in official records.

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When I say education, I mean some certficate (SSLC, PUC) or Degree (University), which recognized in the region and provides opportunity for highr standard of life.
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Old 30th August 2008, 15:49   #82
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The emphasis on education & health is because, population isn't the problem. The problem is how best to ensure you make use of the population. Hence the stress on those 2 points.

By some estimates, the world can handle upto 3 times the current population.
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There is no population problem. There is a poverty and education problem. The real question is how does India leverage its largest assest (its population).
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Old 30th August 2008, 15:57   #83
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It has a lot to do with the current conversation. This entire discussion is based on a Western premise that India is overpopulated. I completely reject this concept. In fact I will proudly say that more Indians = better world.
That sounds to me like saying more people of my religion the better. Let some group race for more population and let's see what happens with already less resource. There is no denying that western world has always been more systematic than ours. We have laws literally copy/paste from them and what not.

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Put it this way, what does it say about our psychology when we prescribe to the idea that there are too many of our own kind? What type of self image do Indian have if they believe that the world will be better if there were less of their own type?
I suggest you stop talking about "our kind". That does not lead anywhere.

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British knew very well how to colonize and dominate entire civilizations, and one of their techniques was to include psychological warfare to misinform and denigrate the subjugated civilization by rewriting their history and crafting history books taught in schools so that entire generations would learn the British world view.
What was India before British came? What was education and schooling before British came? They colonized us and that is not right. But then we learnt a lot of things from them. There is no denying in that. If not for British, we would still be waging wars among princes and petty kings. Brahmins would still be treating the lower castes as ****s. Just a few examples.

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Unfortunately this is the case in India even now. We have not written our own history, but learn history through the lens of the Western World View. This is the real reason that Indian believe that they have a population problem. The reason that we have a huge population in poverty is partly due to what you mentioned above (British blood sucking for centuries).
Statistics and academic recordings were not our nature unless for the royal family. Please don't tell me that we were much richer before the British came. I know where I would be if British had not come to my rescue (a little exaggerated there, but true for many).

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There is no population problem. There is a poverty and education problem. The real question is how does India leverage its largest assest (its population).
Ok. Go ahead. Try having as many kids as possible. Darn! What am I suggesting!! Even among those religions that support more reproduction, those economically better members of that religion tend to have less kids. Of course a species need some minimum number to have a prosperous existence on the planet. We are right now too many on this planet. Full stop.
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Old 30th August 2008, 16:02   #84
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Simple. Education, better living conditions and a taste of luxury. That is all we need to have self tendency to control population. Who would want to spend half of their lives waking up in the night to feed the babies? But we have a huge population of the poor who had not had the taste of luxury and thus no desire to improve. So, one kid or ten kids, it is all the same for these poor people.
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Old 30th August 2008, 16:08   #85
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Thats the point. With one kid, they can provide better amenities to that kid. Else it will be spilt among 6, if they have six kids. They learn this through education, provided they have access to better health care.
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So, one kid or ten kids, it is all the same for these poor people.
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Old 30th August 2008, 16:25   #86
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That sounds to me like saying more people of my religion the better. Let some group race for more population and let's see what happens with already less resource. There is no denying that western world has always been more systematic than ours. We have laws literally copy/paste from them and what not.


I suggest you stop talking about "our kind". That does not lead anywhere.


What was India before British came? What was education and schooling before British came? They colonized us and that is not right. But then we learnt a lot of things from them. There is no denying in that. If not for British, we would still be waging wars among princes and petty kings. Brahmins would still be treating the lower castes as ****s. Just a few examples.


Statistics and academic recordings were not our nature unless for the royal family. Please don't tell me that we were much richer before the British came. I know where I would be if British had not come to my rescue (a little exaggerated there, but true for many).
I've been on Team-Bhp for only a couple of weeks. I joined here with the standard assumption that people here would be a little left leaning goodhearted liberals who have more-then-average usual knowledge on such things.

Gosh! Was I wrong ?

Hail Sanjay Gandhi - Compulsory sterilization - 1 Child Policy. British imperialists who looted and bankrupted India - good ?

What next - Hail the Nazis and long live Mussolini ?

No rule, no law should infringe personal rights. Its the job of a nation to provide basic social and physical infrastructure and create opportunities for its citizen. At the most, you can tax your citizens for consuming the resources the nation creates as a whole - which I would say still infringes on personal rights.

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Ok. Go ahead. Try having as many kids as possible. Darn! What am I suggesting!! Even among those religions that support more reproduction, those economically better members of that religion tend to have less kids. Of course a species need some minimum number to have a prosperous existence on the planet. We are right now too many on this planet. Full stop.
In no way does the previous poster imply having more kids. All he did was to express his personal reservation on the population issue. World over population control has followed better education, better health system and better job opportunities. When Indians start voting on these issues, population control will follow.

Appointing the next Sanjay Gandhi as our next commander-in-chief is NOT the solution.

A lot of poor Indian breed more because they never know how many of their kids will eventually survive. They know its going to be tough to eventually pay for their education.

OTOH a population control policy would tremendously skew the girl-boy ratio if you force it on less-educated citizens. If they can only have one, they would rather have a boy. This is happening in China.
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Old 30th August 2008, 16:58   #87
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Reducing fertility through pollution (i read some such study) will help control population!

Let people have even more entertainment!
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Old 30th August 2008, 17:18   #88
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
That sounds to me like saying more people of my religion the better. Let some group race for more population and let's see what happens with already less resource. There is no denying that western world has always been more systematic than ours. We have laws literally copy/paste from them and what not.


I suggest you stop talking about "our kind". That does not lead anywhere.


What was India before British came? What was education and schooling before British came? They colonized us and that is not right. But then we learnt a lot of things from them. There is no denying in that. If not for British, we would still be waging wars among princes and petty kings. Brahmins would still be treating the lower castes as ****s. Just a few examples.


Statistics and academic recordings were not our nature unless for the royal family. Please don't tell me that we were much richer before the British came. I know where I would be if British had not come to my rescue (a little exaggerated there, but true for many).



Ok. Go ahead. Try having as many kids as possible. Darn! What am I suggesting!! Even among those religions that support more reproduction, those economically better members of that religion tend to have less kids. Of course a species need some minimum number to have a prosperous existence on the planet. We are right now too many on this planet. Full stop.
Opendro or whatever your real name is:

You comments exactly validate my point about the way India's old British masters not only subjugated us physically, but also mentally.

But don't take it personally, because an entire generation of Indians suscribe to this theory that after being literally raped by the imperialist British Raj, they thank them.
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Old 30th August 2008, 17:37   #89
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There are many European kingdoms which were barbaric at the time British came to India and now have made graceful transition to the Industrial age. India, being already civilized, wouldn't have been an exception.
In fact, I trust the enterprise & entrepreneur nature of our kings than the Britishers & the Indian Govt.
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If not for British, we would still be waging wars among princes and petty kings.
Britishers abolished caste system? News to me.
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Brahmins would still be treating the lower castes as ****s. Just a few examples.
When British came to India, Indian economy was was 10 times as big as Europe.
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Please don't tell me that we were much richer before the British came.
What did Britishers actually do? They took raw materials from India, processed them in England and sold the finished goods to the entire world.

If they really cared for this country, they would have established those textile mills here. This is the thing needed for the India. Education, roads, rails are trivial, which anyway would have happened with or without British rule.

15th century saw the decline of Mogul empire and before any dynasty (with local interests) could take control, Britishers (whose interests were mainly England) took control. This is the most unfortunate thing to happen to India in its history.

Before the British came 25% of the world trade originated in India. By the time they left it was less than 1%. All the empirical facts show you that British rule was a disaster for India.

Last edited by diabloo : 30th August 2008 at 17:46.
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Old 30th August 2008, 18:36   #90
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Yep. diabloo is right: India was very, very rich before the brits turned up.

What else do you think they came for?

I'm not so sure about how India's wealth was distributed, and my guess (open to correction, of course) is that there was a pretty small wealthy class that was very, very wealthy.

I'm also open to the idea that, if there was a gift that Britain gave to india, it was the gift of unity itself --- and look how they gave it; in a cack-handed way that cost the lives of, what, millions? Frankly, I'm surprised sometimes that you guys ever gave us guys visas ever again, let alone made some of us very welcome.

It seems, too, though this is something I've only just begun to learn about, that the caste system even, in its inhuman and inflexible form that suits some, especially some politicians, was engineered by the Brits.

Just one thing, Diabloo...
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In fact, I trust the enterprise & entrepreneur nature of our kings than the Britishers & the Indian Govt.
Not so sure about this. The East India Company did not arrive with an army, that came later; it arrived as businessmen who came to trade, and who did they trade with? form alliances with? Your Kings and princes, who lost out.

That is something I want India never to forget, especially when dealing with corporate America and 'globalisation' (which actually means American colonialism). USA can make the Brits of 200 years ago look like a bunch of bumbling amateurs; it won't be content with sucking the blood out of India; it'll grind the bones!

Well, I'm joining the ranting game now! But hey, I really was shocked to read, a few months ago, that kids are leaving Indian schools now believing that British rule was good for India. No! No! No!


Agentsmith2. Oh dear, you came here from the Singur thread, where there is some people seem to be expressing somewhat oppressive political ideas. It's a good forum, really!

Quote:
No rule, no law should infringe personal rights.
Point... Much of the world considers "a woman's right to choice", ie her right to abort a pregnancy, to be an absolute right.

So what about the personal right to abort a pregnancy because it is a girl?

I have to admit that, whilst I support the Indian law of not disclosing the sex of an unborn child, I cannot reconcile this with the above right.

Quote:
OTOH a population control policy would tremendously skew the girl-boy ratio if you force it on less-educated citizens. If they can only have one, they would rather have a boy. This is happening in China.
This skewing is something that, as per the above, certain Indian communities seem to be doing very well for themselves.
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