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Old 2nd September 2008, 11:17   #106
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agentsmith2 : Why India doesn't permit high-rises is beyond me. .
Stop thinking of floor-space, and start thinking of eco-space. The environment & ecology that is needed to support a person during his entire lifetime.

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supremeBaleno : Regarding adoption, me and my wife have this in mind as we would like to have 2 kids (a boy and a girl), but without adding to the population. We already have a boy, so plan to adopt a girl. .
SB, may your tribe increase. I wish & pray for you that your dreams come true.

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RedMM340 : Let's not fall prey to the western world view and their fear of increasing numbers of Hindustanis running over the world with its growing population.
So anything the west says is wrong, and has an unlterior motive. So we must oppose anything they say, without checking if there is any truth atall in what they say ?

What ever happened to the ancient Indian wisdom of being respectful & protective of the environment, ecology, wildlife ? Traditional Indian Wisdom that said you need to take care of not just your family & property, but also the world around you ? Where every element in nature was worshipped ?

But today, does the normal person even care a hoot for that fresh, virgin, A4 sized sheet of paper that he will take just to illustrate some stupid, inconsequential point ? And after that - just crush it into a ball & may be practice hoop with that ball. A4 sized paper for which a tree was cut down & other resources were used during production ?

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diabloo : By some estimates, the world can handle upto 3 times the current population.
Hey Diabloo, by current estimates, your salary can safely & comfortably feed 4 other families. Please take up the responsibility of these other 4 families.

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speedzak : Sorry guys! To have children or not is a personal decision ...
Sorry, Zak. While the choice of having kids is a personal choice, but while you do that, please remember what GoW said : there's a social responsibility - but to that, also pls add ecological responsibility & environmental responsibility. Nobody is saying dont have kids. The point here is that the size of human population has already gone beyond comfortable limits, and we need to think differently now, that before.

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speedzak : If there're some problems in resources not available etc.. our scientists/researchers will come up with alternatives.
Like they are doing by GM crops ? Many GM crops are engineered to not produce seeds. Crops produced, are good for feeding. But not for growing again. When you want seeds, you need to go back to them. While they are looking at their financial bottom line, we are loosing control in another direction, and nobody - definitely not the GM seed companies - are looking that way :
Basically, once these crops are sown, their genetic characteristics are affecting the normal, natural cycle of plant growth elsewhere. The fertilization & pollination on other plants around these GM plants is being affected. The practice of using GM seeds is causing us to lose the traditional plant strains for ever. So the plant that was strong, and was evolving to adapt to it;s surroundings now has it's development & evolutionary cycle disrupted, and it's strengths being effectively destroyed.

Or like the (Indian) governments that imported wheat and along with that got the parthenium into India. A weed that cannot be controlled now.

Or like that policy that imported bees from SE Asia because they supposedly had better honey producing capabilities. Little did anyone know or realize that these bees had a sac disease, which has spread to the local strains and now the local bees are also not able to produce the honey.

Even if you were to argue that both these were honest mistakes, the damage is done. Try un-doing it, brother.

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Thad : Of course, there's a basic instinct, but humans have learnt to live with and manage that instinct.
. Not really, Thad. If you were argue on those lines, human beings have been over-successful in propagating their species. The human body has also evolved in a different direction - very different from other species. Other species copulate for bearing young to propagate their species - in a hostile world. Human beings copulate for pleasure, in turn making the creative aspect also pleasureable. But important point here is that we humans have made the world a hostile place for other species. It's a different thing that we will make it a hostile place for ourselves too, very soon. Unless we act upon it.


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Thad : The success of manhood is measured by fathering; a woman who does not, or cannot, have children is considered a failure.
Truth changes with time. This was true ages ago. Not anymore. Humans need to stop thinking on these lines.

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speedzak : I also think that the nature can adopt to the growing population. That's how it is designed to be. ...
speedzak : World won't just get packed up with humans I'm sure. Especially with the amount of killings/deaths happening in all levels of human life. Be it in the womb, lap, cradle, school, college, office, road, street etc..
bblost : The only unknown thing here is what happens to the Humans.
No one can tell exactly how Nature will adapt.
It's quite simple. It's called survival of the fittest. Remember the programs on Nat-Geo where they show animals hunting ? The stronger ones get their fill. The weaker ones get left behind, and then become prey to other animals.

That's what we have started doing now. In a subtle way. He who has the muscle power or money power, is buying. If Prices rise, he will pay more. But he can be out-bought. After a certain stage, it will become a fight. Then a free for all. We dont want that happening, and need to act atleast now before things like that become a reality.

Those who think that human population can be increased & that there is no problem : they are causing problems for themselves, but more importantly for the others too, the others who want to keep life sustainable.

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speedzak : We are humans and I'm sure we will survive in this earth which was after all made for us. Rather than conserving other creatures in sacrifice of humans, we should think otherwise.
Man is forgetting that he is a part of nature. Nature is not part of man/man-kind. This is just like forgetting that we are part of our family. Our family is not part of the individual.

Let's remember that the earth can definitely survive without man. Man cannot. He is completely dependent on the earth for his survival. We need to protect the earth to protect ourselves. It's in our own intrest, and for our own intrest.

Like GREENPEACE said : It may be small, but it's all we've got.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 11:47   #107
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When this thread was started, I was so sure that this would be one topic where all of tbhp would be unanimously in agreement about the fact that the exploding population is a problem and that something needs to be urgently done about it.

But some of the responses really surprised me. Especially the ones that suggested there is no problem at all and that we should infact be breeding more or that more of us is a boon and not a bane. Also the ones about all this whole thing being a western propaganda - that was hilarious.

But then, it does not really shock me also, because in a post on this thread earlier on, I had mentioned about how even educated people are not aware of the seriousness of the problem and the consequences we and future generations will have to face if we breed uncontrolled.

Already the world is facing a food shortage leaving many people hungry - not surprising given that our numbers are increasing but food production is not keeping pace. Adding to the problem are farmlands being diverted for bio-diesel crops, fertile lands being gobbled up by industry, people turning away from farming due to it not being lucrative enough (eg. the huge crop lost to rains in Kerala due to the left unions not allowing mechanised equipment for harvesting, inspite of manual labour shortage - just this one reason will ensure that the Left front will never ever get my vote) etc.

And as condor mentioned, it would not really be surprising if we end up in the survival of the fittest scenario, killing for food. Another resource for which the fight would hot up soon is water - again getting stretched to the limits.

Ofcourse, no one is saying that you should not have kids - that is not the solution. I like kids and we had a kid because we wanted one. There might be people who think 2 kids makes it complete. Fine too.

But I do not think we can afford to do a Brad Pitt here in India - he had a daughter a year or more ago, a set of twins some months ago and recently proclaimed that he is aiming at 2 more kids in a year. I mean, is he trying to make a point or something? This is apart from the 3 kids he and Jolie adopted. As long as they were adopting kids, they had my admiration, but now .
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Old 2nd September 2008, 11:54   #108
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Charity begins at home!

How many BHPians are ready to make a commitment that they will have only two kids, no matter if it is two daughters or two sons or everyone's desire of one son & one daughter?

I have already made that commitment!
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Old 2nd September 2008, 13:24   #109
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Why two? Why not one?!

@SupremeBaleno: I hear you. I am as shocked. Most of us may provide for even 3-4 kids, but we're talking the teeming crores here.

To give a perspective, only a crore or two taxpayers are there in India, a poor country of 1.1 billion people. Even the govt doesnt have resources!
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Old 2nd September 2008, 13:50   #110
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1 extra kid has x Multiplication effect (not + addition effect) VERY BAD

Because, your 2 kids will have 1+1 or 2+2 kids each, and their kids will have more..and so on....

All civilized countries have less population.

If china did not enforce population reduction it would be like India by now - sadly China is CENTURY ahead of India now. India can only dream of hosting and managing the Olympics at such a grand scale like China did!! All the foreign tourists who travelled to China during Olympics, PRAISED CHINA.

There is no point in making fun of countries who have Negative population growth. They are doing far better.

Last edited by aerohit : 2nd September 2008 at 13:55.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 14:09   #111
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Originally Posted by speedzak View Post
I also think that the nature can adopt to the growing population. That's how it is designed to be. If there're some problems in resources not available etc.. our scientists/researchers will come up with alternatives. World won't just get packed up with humans I'm sure. Especially with the amount of killings/deaths happening in all levels of human life. Be it in the womb, lap, cradle, school, college, office, road, street etc.. We are humans and I'm sure we will survive in this earth which was after all made for us. Rather than conserving other creatures in sacrifice of humans, we should think otherwise.
How can you be so sure that nature will adapt to growing population, Zak ? Nature is already showing signs of distress, in the form of "Climate change".
I am sure you know glaciers melting at an alarming rate, water table depletion, non-renewable resources like Crude oil and natural gas depleting, reduction in Ozone layer, and so on. Or is it that these terms are just for the school text-books, to learn, and forget.


The point is, how long the Earth can sustain? What comes, has to go. The Earth will give up at some point. The question is, can we delay or even reverse the inevitable, or do we just keep ignoring it, and continuing with our lives of "Party-Work-Shopping" (India Shining effect), and let mother earth die a pre-mature death? Rising population will only mean more pressure on the resources, which makes the situation worse.

Don't we keep making Earth a difficult place to live in for our next generation? Those of you who have children, think about it...
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Old 2nd September 2008, 14:13   #112
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We (me and my wife) have one daugther and we have a firm resoluton of no more kids. This way we are contributing to negative population growth in India . This is true with my brother too and my brother in law. We all have just one son or a daugther.

All three of us I am sure can provide for at least a Dozen kids. Your capability to provide for should not be the critieria for having kids.

Last edited by DieselFan : 2nd September 2008 at 14:15.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 16:19   #113
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
To give a perspective, only a crore or two taxpayers are there in India, a poor country of 1.1 billion people. Even the govt doesnt have resources!
If Govt ever said that it doesn't have resources (money) its PURE BULL$#%@.
Where do you think our tax money goes?
Where do you think 1000 crore rupee scams come from?
Where did that scam money come from?
Where did the scam money go finally?

That was MY tax money. It was wasted. Period.

-- Torqy
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Old 2nd September 2008, 16:47   #114
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supremeBaleno : Another resource for which the fight would hot up soon is water - again getting stretched to the limits.
A third world war, it has been analysed, would be fought over water.

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DCEite : How can you be so sure that nature will adapt to growing population, Zak ? Nature is already showing signs of distress, in the form of "Climate change"...
@Zak, aren't you seeing increases in costs of raw materials & inputs that you use in your business ?

Havent you seen how much more you need to drill that borewell before you strike water ? What about price & availability of land ?

It's only going to get worse.

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Torqy : Where do you think our tax money goes?
In (Big) Part to secure someone's future & survival for some more time.
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Torqy : Where do you think 1000 crore rupee scams come from?
From people trying to secure their future & survival, by hook or crook.
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Torqy : Where did the scam money go finally?
To secure some one's future & survival for some more time.

Last edited by condor : 2nd September 2008 at 17:01.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 21:34   #115
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Why two? Why not one?!

To give a perspective, only a crore or two taxpayers are there in India, a poor country of 1.1 billion people. Even the govt doesnt have resources!
3.1 crore or 3% to be precise: India has 31.5 million taxpayers- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times

Though India has about 250 million cell phone users: Indian Cell Population: 246 Million and Counting - GigaOM

Absence of tax payers doesn't imply abject poverty - it indicates massive non compliance. Couple of years of hard & good crackdown coupled with lowering of tax rates and standardization of slabs will fill the tax coffers to the brim.
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Old 2nd September 2008, 22:49   #116
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I agree with you agentsmith. Who knows IT dept may even monitor teambhp

My point was really twofold. Its not like India is a land of plenty - even by governmental collection standards, or by our willingness to contribute back our due. I'm sure the british times saw infinitely higher compliance.

Torqy, Its OK to rant, its ok to feel disillusioned in the current context. Its NOT OK to post without thinking, though

Condor has answered you comprehensively, and I would just request you to look at the government budget inflow/outflows. I can guarantee it will open your eyes.

@aerohit ji: I meant only one kid not 2+1
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Old 3rd September 2008, 00:08   #117
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Originally Posted by aerohit View Post

All civilized countries have less population.

If china did not enforce population reduction it would be like India by now - sadly China is CENTURY ahead of India now. India can only dream of hosting and managing the Olympics at such a grand scale like China did!! All the foreign tourists who travelled to China during Olympics, PRAISED CHINA.

There is no point in making fun of countries who have Negative population growth. They are doing far better.
I believe that India is very much civilized. I hope you are not implying that India is uncivilized.

China is the worst country in the world. They killed at least 60 million of their own population during the red revolution, destroyed almost all of their heritage and culture, burned generations of books, ancient artifacts, outlawed religion and have the worst human rights record in the world. This is a country with rampant corruption, jail without a trial, summary executions. Vast segments of the population live in abject poverty that is hidden from international view. Prison labor is used for manufacturing. Prisoner are used for human organ harvesting with the complicity of the local police and government. The china communist machine is proliferating nuclear weapons and has likely supplied nukes to pakistan. The chinese are funding communists in Nepal, and India to further the chinese agenda.

I don't think this and many more dubious deeds by the Chinese qualifies them as being ahead of India. China is a the real definition of a rogue state and it it just a question of time before there will be another military confrontation between India and China. China will also soon become a huge problem for the U.S., and the western countries that have benefited from using china as a low cost manufacturing hub. In doing so they have unwittingly helped the Chinese military expansion, which will come back to haunt the West.

So please don't praise China.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 01:01   #118
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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
I believe that India is very much civilized. I hope you are not implying that India is uncivilized.
What if we are implying that? We spit and defecate in public, use any excuse to break queues and lines, and are generally boorish and uncouth. That's pretty uncivilised.

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Originally Posted by RedMM340
They killed at least 60 million of their own population during the red revolution, destroyed almost all of their heritage and culture, burned generations of books, ancient artifacts, outlawed religion and have the worst human rights record in the world. This is a country with rampant corruption, jail without a trial, summary executions. Vast segments of the population live in abject poverty that is hidden from international view. Prison labor is used for manufacturing.
Dude, 50 percent of whatever you've said is applicable to India. Does that make us the 2nd worst country in the world? Are we half-way to the top?

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Originally Posted by RedMM340
it it just a question of time before there will be another military confrontation between India and China.
And who do you think will win that one? God forbid such a war happends, because then we will be reduced to slaves.

The problem with Indians is that they will always harp on about the past. We were a great civilisation, we never invaded anyone, 5000 years of culture, blah blah blah. What does that get us today? A sixth of the world's population, and precious little else. Everyone still thinks, KNOWS, that India is a poor country. 10,000 people on an Internet forum does not mean the country is progressing. We are too busy either being insular in our own personal struggles for success, because the Govt doesn't care two hoots for us, or denigrating achievements of other countries, to stand up and take responsibility for the deep, deep crap that we're in.

All of this, of course, is seriously off-topic.

I don't think there is much hope for us when educated people themselves cannot agree that India has a population problem. And bloody right, it's a problem. That's why we have shortages, of everything from living space to food to fuel.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 08:58   #119
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What if we are implying that? We spit and defecate in public, use any excuse to break queues and lines, and are generally boorish and uncouth. That's pretty uncivilised.


Dude, 50 percent of whatever you've said is applicable to India. Does that make us the 2nd worst country in the world? Are we half-way to the top?


And who do you think will win that one? God forbid such a war happends, because then we will be reduced to slaves.

The problem with Indians is that they will always harp on about the past. We were a great civilisation, we never invaded anyone, 5000 years of culture, blah blah blah. What does that get us today? A sixth of the world's population, and precious little else. Everyone still thinks, KNOWS, that India is a poor country. 10,000 people on an Internet forum does not mean the country is progressing. We are too busy either being insular in our own personal struggles for success, because the Govt doesn't care two hoots for us, or denigrating achievements of other countries, to stand up and take responsibility for the deep, deep crap that we're in.

All of this, of course, is seriously off-topic.

I don't think there is much hope for us when educated people themselves cannot agree that India has a population problem. And bloody right, it's a problem. That's why we have shortages, of everything from living space to food to fuel.

Sorry, but India is not a poor country. India is actually a very rich country. We have a rich cultural heritage, a rich history, we are very rich in tradition. We also have a very large, diverse economy that is growing at a very rapid rate.

Sure, India has its share of problems, and what country does not? But I refuse to join in the chorus of western countries denigrating our past, present, and future.

You complain about uncouth behavior in public, such a spitting, etc. I personally find this type of behavior frustrating, and offensive also. But these are uneducated people that have not had any opportunity for a proper education. These types of problems will change with an increasing per capita income and increasing education levels.

You need to study Chinese history in a bit. The Red Revolution and the human rights abuses then and now in China, is nothing like India.

Regarding a confrontation with China. You seriously underestimate the Indian military. China does not stand a chance.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 10:30   #120
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Charity begins at home!

How many BHPians are ready to make a commitment that they will have only two kids, no matter if it is two daughters or two sons or everyone's desire of one son & one daughter?

I have already made that commitment!
I plan to have one baby of my own and adopt one.
Reason for adoption is not purely charity, but also to help me share my love to someone who is not my own flesh and blood. I know itís not going to be that easy, but life itself is tough, right?
I want to test myself for love, and see if I can be a good mom and equally love 2 babies when the basis of comparison is one born out of me and one whoís not. I hope I achieve success in this. Letís see.
I donít have any immediate plan for babies, but Iíll keep you posted when and how it goes.
I am glad my hubby respects and supports my decision.

But I also completely understand that decision regarding kids is a very personal choice of husband and wife both, and whatever that decision is it should be respected. I respect other peopleís decision, whatever they decide is best for them. After all, only we know whatís best for us.
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