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Old 27th February 2009, 22:24   #16
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The Company will not respond unless damage payment is made to them.

That is the reason it is usually better to involve labour commissioner.

I am not sure about exact wordings, but withholding employee pay and PF (If its is not magaed by EPFO, but managed by some trust) is a criminal offense.

A friend did not receive final settlement after leaving the job. But company deducted TDS on the portion that was still to be paid.

He met IT commissioner personally, and things were sorted out in no time.

No HR dept would want to be on wrong side of law w.r.t. labour or IT dept.
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Old 2nd March 2009, 13:40   #17
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mmmjgm: I have read your messages in this post, I'm struggling to get the PF thing done from ex employer : Apparently the finance guy is not giving me a clear picture of whether he has filled or not. He is just dilly dallying the same from the last 8 months, I have told him to hand over the copy of the acknolwdgement he receives when he files, but of absolutely no use. I used this mantra of sending an sms saying you have to do this by last weekend but again of no use..Is there anything I can do? Appreciate your thoughts on this..I have tried emails,sms everything..but I have not yet put his managers in the line, do you want me to do that or just go meet the HR Head & let him know this?

Last edited by Technocrat : 5th March 2009 at 15:38.
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Old 4th March 2009, 05:24   #18
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You bet I'm happy that I have a job, but for how long is my question?. Me being in the travel domain which is one of the worst hit in terms of technology, bizz, inbound & outbound tourism..I'm really in a situation where I don't know whether i would have a JOB tomorrow..thats how we are..

But again so far so good..

Dude: I have read your messages in this post, I'm struggling to get the PF thing done from ex employer : Apparently the finance guy is not giving me a clear picture of whether he has filled or not. He is just dilly dallying the same from the last 8 months, I have told him to hand over the copy of the acknolwdgement he receives when he files, but of absolutely no use. I used this mantra of sending an sms saying you have to do this by last weekend but again of no use..Is there anything I can do? Appreciate your thoughts on this..I have tried emails,sms everything..but I have not yet put his managers in the line, do you want me to do that or just go meet the HR Head & let him know this?
HR has generally a more sympathethic view of the scene and the only department to authorise this (i have headed a couple of co's therefore I can say this).

Also don't worry mail me your specifics (or PM me ) and let's take this forward.

Cheers don't worry
read my next post. "-)
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Old 5th March 2009, 14:40   #19
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Thanks MMMJGM, appreciate it. I have received an email from him saying he would be on top of it by early next week. I hope he does. I will keep you posted in case if it turns out the unexpected way. Thanks & Cheers
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Old 5th March 2009, 18:10   #20
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The CEO of Tanishq quit and started his own company (IIRC it was Oysterbay?) A couple of senior staff of a cola company quit and joined another famous competitor. IN both cases their appointment letter had a 'no-compete' clause prohibiting them from joining the competition for a period of one/two years from the date of resignation.

In both cases, the companies filed cases - and they lost! They took it to the high court - they lost there as well!

They hold PF back, you can sure them for every penny they are worth! (and if anyone from the company has given you any reason in writing - you will never have to work again!)

You can hold the Chairman/ CEO personally liable (- and the nuisance value is vey high - in any labour case he continues to be personally liable even after he leaves the organisation or superannuates from it!)

Call it my 'Mallu' genes, but I HATE these companies holding poor staff for ransom!!
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Old 5th March 2009, 18:43   #21
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AS pointed by MM this is the correct procedure. A company cannot stop your PF even if they announce you as an absconder.

@MM - nice to see someone sharing my Birth date and thoughts
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Old 6th March 2009, 04:12   #22
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Did you resign or did you leave?
When I wanted to submit my resignation letter in person in India, the HR refused to accept it and simply said that "You can't resign as you have not completed 6 months after coming from onsite".

So, I had to submit my resignation via registered post.

I'm not alone - many of my colleagues had faced same fate while leaving TCS.
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Old 6th March 2009, 07:45   #23
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I was with TCS for 6 years, I quit 11 years back, after completing all the bonds. Then the maximum bond period was 2 years or twice the time spent abroad, whichever is less. Therefore, I didn't have any hassle, I got my PF and gratuity within 3-4 of quitting.

I have seen lots of colleagues jump ship before the bond period, both in India and abroad. I can't recall anyone of them getting their PF/gratutiy/experience-letter/job-reference by suing TCS. Some paid the bond amount and made their peace. I know one-sided bonds are not supposed to work (we all used to discuss that aspect all the time), but TCS bond is probably crafted by the best of legal brains, so it takes long fight to crack that bond. So get legal opinion on the wordings of the bond, if it mentions training, then it will be tough.

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Originally Posted by mmmjgm View Post
Third - PF cannot be garnished (attached) nor can any company have any control over the PF funds of an individual working for them, as the law is very precise in this respect, if they have made a deduction on your account by way of PF, by the 15th of the next month it has to be deposited with the PF commissioner's office. If not then the person goes to jail.
This is not correct in case of TCS. They have their own PF trust, fully under their control. Therefore they don't deposit anything with PF commissioner's office.
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Old 6th March 2009, 07:52   #24
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I was with TCS for 6 years, I quit 11 years back, after completing all the bonds. Then the maximum bond period was 2 years or twice the time spent abroad, whichever is less. Therefore, I didn't have any hassle, I got my PF and gratuity within 3-4 of quitting.

I have seen lots of colleagues jump ship before the bond period, both in India and abroad. I can't recall anyone of them getting their PF/gratutiy/experience-letter/job-reference by suing TCS. Some paid the bond amount and made their peace. I know one-sided bonds are not supposed to work (we all used to discuss that aspect all the time), but TCS bond is probably crafted by the best of legal brains, so it takes long fight to crack that bond. So get legal opinion on the wordings of the bond, if it mentions training, then it will be tough.

This is not correct in case of TCS. They have their own PF trust, fully under their control. Therefore they don't deposit anything with PF commissioner's office.

Nobody can stop your PF. You just have to fill up the form and submit to the respective PF department. or when you join new company just say transfer my pf to the old account and then from the new company you can withdraw pf.
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Old 6th March 2009, 08:11   #25
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^^ Well i am an ex-TCS er too and this very discussion used to come up once in a while - since the PF money is in their 'trust', i think they can keep it as their own if they do not have to pay you.

I once heard for US onsite folks, even up untill some years back they would keep with themselves the tax returns of employees aswell...not sure how true it is.
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Old 6th March 2009, 08:34   #26
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Nobody can stop your PF. You just have to fill up the form and submit to the respective PF department. or when you join new company just say transfer my pf to the old account and then from the new company you can withdraw pf.
You are not understanding what I am saying. TCS has their own PF trust, if you jump ship, they will freeze your PF. How can you apply to government PF department when they don't have your money?

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I once heard for US onsite folks, even up untill some years back they would keep with themselves the tax returns of employees aswell...not sure how true it is.
Very very true. TCS used to file tax returns to all employees who worked in USA. Once I had to sign over my $800 cheque from US treasury to TCS. Generally they take POA so that the cheque comes directly to them. Sometimes if POA is not in place, the employee gets it directly, like I did once. It felt really bad to hand it back, but then those days TCS was run like a fiefdom of certain Fakir Chand Kohli.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:03   #27
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I was with TCS for 6 years, I quit 11 years back, after completing all the bonds. Then the maximum bond period was 2 years or twice the time spent abroad, whichever is less. Therefore, I didn't have any hassle, I got my PF and gratuity within 3-4 of quitting.

I know one-sided bonds are not supposed to work (we all used to discuss that aspect all the time), but TCS bond is probably crafted by the best of legal brains, so it takes long fight to crack that bond. So get legal opinion on the wordings of the bond, if it mentions training, then it will be tough.

This is not correct in case of TCS. They have their own PF trust, fully under their control. Therefore they don't deposit anything with PF commissioner's office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You are not understanding what I am saying. TCS has their own PF trust, if you jump ship, they will freeze your PF. How can you apply to government PF department when they don't have your money?
but then those days TCS was run like a fiefdom of certain Fakir Chand Kohli.
Hi Samu,

Infosys, TCS manage the funds of their employees PF, more like a fund manager. they only manage the funds and submit returns to the government. (same as offshoring but the funds are managed and accounted for by the company's PF trust)

They cannot withhold or deny transfer/release of the balance of the PF amount deducted from the employee.

Why ?
1) The PF act says so.
2) The income tax act and various notifications issued till date allow the beneficiary of the PF to get tax deduction on the amount.
3) The PF will be managed by a trust, now the trust has a deed to get it into formation by law, the trust has a mandate, the mandate cannot change to benefit the employer (another entity altogether). I.e. simply put the company cannot tell the trust to NOT release or transfer the funds cos the employee has left the company. It's illegal (under the civil sense).

There is no way in hell that they can stand a refusal of the PF (the law states that the employee should have worked for a minimum of five calender months)

Legalese is a different thing altogether, as I have mentioned no company can garnish or arraign (withhold) any amount which is managed/held as Employees's Provident Fund under the Act.

With ref to the bond, no matter how clearly or how pungent the legal wordings of the bond are as of 2003 (may be even before) there has been a supreme court ruling that no one can compel any one to work, bond, no bond or even anything in writing.

The amount spent on training ? Hah ! The training was to benefit the company, not the employee !. Again, each employee leaving without resigning properly will have to be prosecuted to get back the training funds to make it stand in court, which is a joke in practicality.

I may not know the case number/date and plaintiffs and sundry details of the case but it has been well documented.

The icing on the cake is that many people attrite/ jump ship from IT companies while on site/offsite, are they all persecuted by the companies they leave in the same methodical manner ? If NOT ! then its discrimination and can be contested heavily.

Last but not the least, the concept of threatening someone to do a particular act in which the party threatening is interested is an offense under the IPC. How capable the lawyer representing you will have a great bearing on the out come of the case.

At the end of the day, its how well you manage your ship, which is always the winner's advantage.
Cheers
M M

Edit: Power of Attorney's in Maharashtra state have to be registered with the sub registrar's office to have legal value.

Last edited by mmmjgm : 6th March 2009 at 09:21.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:08   #28
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This is not correct in case of TCS. They have their own PF trust, fully under their control. Therefore they don't deposit anything with PF commissioner's office.
Samurai,
My employer too had their own PF trust.But Govt of India had directed an order asking all such private PF trusts to merge with the EPF managed by the Government.So,I think since the beginning of this financial year,our funds were shifted to EPF.I believe that should have been the case with TCS as well.

Maybe,someone whoz with TCS now can confirm this.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:17   #29
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Samurai : You are not understanding what I am saying. TCS has their own PF trust, if you jump ship, they will freeze your PF. How can you apply to government PF department when they don't have your money?
@Samurai, PF still remains outside the control of any company - PF cannot be denied by anyone, to anyone, no matter what.

A company may take any approach to recover things like training costs, international assignments, notice-period pay outs,... but when it comes to PF, they cannot use that in any argument.

How the PF amount is managed is again not a factor in holding/denying it to the (ex)employee. Most listed companies have their own PF trusts. the company will need to meet certain stiplated requirements before it can have it's own PF trust. OTOH, there are MNC's that dont have their own trust because they are registered in India as " Pvt Ltd " companies. Such companies go through the regional PF commissioner to maintain the PF of their employees.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:38   #30
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You are not understanding what I am saying. TCS has their own PF trust, if you jump ship, they will freeze your PF. How can you apply to government PF department when they don't have your money?
Such trusts managed by TCS or other companies have to report to EPFO.

And CFO/HR are "personally" liable in case of PF misdeeds.

Usually an RTI to EPFO will result in quick call from EPFO to Company's HR. This call would sort out the matters.

Though you would not get the money, it has to be transferred to EPFO or funds managed by current employer. That is unless you have moved out of country or have retired.

Failing which, bailable warrants can be issued against person who is responsible for PF funds.
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