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Old 6th March 2009, 09:48   #31
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You all are arguing about the Law that PF belongs to the employee but have forgotten to add how much trouble the employee will have to go through to get it if he has defaulted the company bonds/rules whether illegal or not.

It is not like you shoot off a letter to the HR and then expect to receive a cheque though post.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:56   #32
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It is not like you shoot off a letter to the HR and then expect to receive a cheque though post.
Letter to HR will most probably be ignored.

You have following options:

1. File an RTI with EPFO
2. File an RTI with Labour Dept
3. File an FIR with Economic Offenses Wing

Since its a criminal matter.

Usually things will be sorted out at step 1 due to bad publicity other steps can create.

Even in that case, you wont get the money right away, it would be transferred to current employer's trust or new EPFO account.

That takes up to 2 years. But you will continue to get 8.5% tax free returns(or higher in case of company trust) throughout.
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Old 6th March 2009, 10:01   #33
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Originally Posted by zaks View Post
You all are arguing about the Law that PF belongs to the employee but have forgotten to add how much trouble the employee will have to go through to get it if he has defaulted the company bonds/rules whether illegal or not.

It is not like you shoot off a letter to the HR and then expect to receive a cheque though post.
The whole idea of the "idea" of trouble to the employee is that he/she should not leave.

If better remunerative prospects lure him/her to leaving, what's wrong in leaving for better prospects/growth?

Alternatively if its a compulsion to leave the organisation say illness, disability, increase in dependants (family etc) then what must one do ?

The laws (PF rules & regulations) are made to protect citizen's money, if people are not interested in their own money, why bother in that case ?

It's that our country and its law makers are busy making their own scene more comfortable, rather than tending to their constituents.

I have a better idea, take a loan before leaving from your PF account (housing, marriage, sister's marriage etc) and then leave.

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Letter to HR will most probably be ignored.

You have following options:

1. File an RTI with EPFO
2. File an RTI with Labour Dept
3. File an FIR with Economic Offenses Wing

Since its a criminal matter.

.
Make sure you have an appointment letter before all this is attempted, for the safety of the new job.

Cheers

Last edited by Rehaan : 6th March 2009 at 11:35. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the MULTIQUOTE button instead of making multiple consecutive posts in the same thread. Thanks.
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Old 6th March 2009, 10:13   #34
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Originally Posted by mmmjgm View Post
Make sure you have an appointment letter
Not just that, 5 - 10 years later when you switch the job to XYZ, TCS HR would get a call from XYZ HR (or some background verification company).

Make sure you have disclosed this case to XYZ HR. And verify employment with Form 16 (Or IRA filings while Onsite).
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Old 6th March 2009, 10:18   #35
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Make sure you have an appointment letter before all this is attempted, for the safety of the new job.
This is EXACTLY what they try to blackmail you with - bad references!
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Old 6th March 2009, 10:30   #36
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This is EXACTLY what they try to blackmail you with - bad references!
It's not that simple to bad mouth and destroy references. There is a scientific way of approaching the whole activity of references.

The lallu panju companies are well identified in this type of activity and they will reflect their way of working.

Decent and established companies which follow norms and are professional in their outlook will have robust procedures and processes in place which cannot be taken for granted by an HR giving 5-10 year old references.

What is asked in a reference check is mainly
1) Duration of service
2) Designation of the employee,
3) What was remuneration. (this is classified, everyone will not have access to this)
4) Reporting into.
5) Conduct - mainly they don't ask this, but the lallu panju companies use this to their advantage.

When a professional organisation conducts the ref check the respondent of the reference check will not be able to put in his/her own viewpoints and give a negative outcome to the reference check process. There is documentation involved as well.

Yes, in cases of suspicion, further data will be asked from the candidate, such as Form 16, Salary slips etc, these will then be verified.

Basically a reference check is the activity conducted to verify the credentials of the employee as provided by him/her.

At the end of the day, the deity you pray to will make a difference.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:02   #37
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Originally Posted by mmmjgm View Post
It's not that simple to bad mouth and destroy references. There is a scientific way of approaching the whole activity of references.

The lallu panju companies are well identified in this type of activity and they will reflect their way of working.

Decent and established companies which follow norms and are professional in their outlook will have robust procedures and processes in place which cannot be taken for granted by an HR giving 5-10 year old references.

What is asked in a reference check is mainly
1) Duration of service
2) Designation of the employee,
3) What was remuneration. (this is classified, everyone will not have access to this)
4) Reporting into.
5) Conduct - mainly they don't ask this, but the lallu panju companies use this to their advantage.

When a professional organisation conducts the ref check the respondent of the reference check will not be able to put in his/her own viewpoints and give a negative outcome to the reference check process. There is documentation involved as well.

Yes, in cases of suspicion, further data will be asked from the candidate, such as Form 16, Salary slips etc, these will then be verified.

Basically a reference check is the activity conducted to verify the credentials of the employee as provided by him/her.

At the end of the day, the deity you pray to will make a difference.
Well yes - but they do ask 'reason for leaving'

I know a case where the daddy of them all was pulled/used.

Despite being in receipt of a resignation letter by registered post - with acknowledgement due , they went ahead and issued a termination letter citing the standard 'either party can terminate services by giving _ months notice' clause in the appointment letter. The HR guy then had the cheek of gloating 'lets see how he'll get a job now'!

The best part - the termination letter is dated one day AFTER receipt of the resignation letter. (date stamp on the regd. acknowledgement).

Last edited by kb100 : 6th March 2009 at 11:05.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:11   #38
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Originally Posted by kb100 View Post
Well yes - but they do ask 'reason for leaving'


The best part - the termination letter is dated one day AFTER receipt of the resignation letter. (date stamp on the regd. acknowledgement).
There have been rulings in high courts and labour courts against this type of retaliatory tactics, the HR must be smoking something illegal.

It's stupid to pull a fast one like that as the precedence of resignation letter has already reached them.

The resigning employee should have stuck to his guns, would be an interesting case.

Even more interesting would have been saying that the resignation letter was co-erced. That will really light up some fires in the courts

Long before IT & BPOs came on the scene an airline employee who was ground based was fired arbitrarily. The case took a good 20 years and at the end of the case, the court awarded the employee a good 2 million, I was in college when I read of this case in the papers. The 2 million were at 1993 prices.

Last but not the least, a note of caution to all those reading this.

Ask your lawyer, what's the win/loose ratio in these type of cases since the inception of the particular law. This will help you in the long run.

Secondly ask your lawyer (best do your own research) on citations (rulings in other such cases and their outcome, this depends upon the similarity of your case to the one which preceded your case and where a verdict was announced by the court.

The law is a puddle which looks inviting, the stench upon standing in that puddle is not for the weak pocketed/hearted.


Cheers
M M
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:24   #39
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What I don't understand in all this is:

1. X signs an agreement / bond etc. and then goes abroad
2. On return, as per the agreement / bond etc. X signed, X has to stay back for 6 months
3. X decides to resign / leave / "ditch" before 6 months are over.

Why does X sign the agreement / bond in the first place?

For the record, I worked with TCS for a decade. I got the full & final settlement (including encashment of untaken leaves, gratuity etc.) in less than a month after my last date with the company. I got my full PF amount in less than 2.5 months after my last date with the company.

I will now get pension from them when I reach the age of superannuation.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:42   #40
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You are not understanding what I am saying. TCS has their own PF trust, if you jump ship, they will freeze your PF. How can you apply to government PF department when they don't have your money?
As others said no matter who manages the fund it still belongs to employee.
The problem is that most software engineers leaving TCS are young and raw and the sum looks small to them in immediate terms to take legal recourse.
Even if Bond is legal they can send you notices for 'blood money' drag you to court , but if you send them FORM 13 they need to respect the transfer no matter what. And in case you send a lawyers notice for PF transfer I think as per procedure they will immediately return the FORM 13 and try to settle score ( If the person is hammer headed) by sending another notice for bond money which you need to deal in court.

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Very very true. TCS used to file tax returns to all employees who worked in USA. Once I had to sign over my $800 cheque from US treasury to TCS. Generally they take POA so that the cheque comes directly to them. Sometimes if POA is not in place, the employee gets it directly, like I did once. It felt really bad to hand it back, but then those days TCS was run like a fiefdom of certain Fakir Chand Kohli.
There was a class action suit filed in USA and TCS was forced to return the IRS amount. The decisions was very beneficial as other companies also stopped this malpractice. Samurai if you are particular you can still avail benefit.

The problem with TCS was that every minion in HR department thinks himself / herself not less then FCK

<OT>
( There was a joke in TCS that Uma Chand is his fathers name so as per tradition of Maharashtra the Nick should be elaborated including fathers name as middle name)
</OT>
Now my story with TCS and subsequent resignation.

I passed out of college in 1997 and got a very good offer from Campus recruitment in a hardware comp. a dream job for electronics graduate but east Asian finencial crisis of 1997 took it's toll and company went burst before they could honour offer letter. I pleaded my case with placement cell and they allowed me to appear for next Campus interview which was TCS.

I joined TCS and served them for over a year and decided to move on to another better job. I was lured for US stint etc but my objective was clear to stay in India and do what I consider is good.
At that time in whole mumbai I was the only one who offered to resign properly and pay 50K + 2 month notice salary almost 75K as bond amount which was a big money in those days for me.

My next employer was willing to pay this money they required a proper services certificate and were not willing to take any absconding employee owning to their stated corporate objective of being an ethical US midwest company

My project manager in typical PM fashion refused to send a mail stating that he can release me and wrote a mail instead that he consider me important resource as I was one of the only few in 40 member team who were not chair warmers blah blah .. Well this was a wrong time to be praised I would have liked to see this mail at the time of appraisal instead :-)

I submitted my resignation but there was one Mr. Novnil Bhattacharya
as HR manager may be just a few years older to me but he somehow believed that he owns TCS and thought himself to be all important and refused to receive the resignation.
He called me at lunch time laughed mockingly and continued to have his lunch making me wait ( not a best way to do if purpose of exit interview is to retain). He also refused to let me go before 2 months even if I pay all money as per agreement. I was too raw to consider all the legalities etc and to dig my feet in.

whole of the HR department was in tizzy because this was first incidence in the branch where some one was leaving after fulfilling all the formalities at least since the time they were in job ( not too long as you can guess)

Finally the issue was escalated to Bombay House ( Tata Sons HQ as TCS was a division of Tata Sons). People there handled it gracefully and thus mellowed down my bitterness and bad taste in mouth.

I handed over the cheque and shook hands with people there.
My PF Money got transferred to me after 13 months and I was pleasantly surprised that the kitty was bigger then I had calculated.

Looking back now I think I should have set the guy in question straight by escalating what happened to his bosses and top bosses in Bombay house I met . After few more years of experience I finally learnt how companies operate but in the beginning of the carrier you really do not know how to handle these kind of situations.

Last edited by amitk26 : 6th March 2009 at 11:49.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:46   #41
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Originally Posted by hrag View Post
Why does X sign the agreement / bond in the first place?
If you say No. They will send somebody else instead, give you a bad rating in the next evaluation - no salary improvement, no growth. You leave the company.

It happened to a guy for whom i was the technical manager, the people's manager wanted to teach him a lesson for saying no to signing the bond (they don't call it a bond though). His reason for not going he wanted to move internally to a department of his choice and if he had gone on the onsite assignment he would not be able to move for 18 months. This is not in black and white but the manager simply couldnt have released him citing reasons from less headcount to the moon being the only satellite of planet Earth.

When i left my manager send a bad reference check back on me. My manager in UK gave an exact opposite version. My local manager actually outdid himself trying to put me down. The HR in my new firm told me its a personal enemity thing and is quite obvious. They rubbished the reference check but it left a bad taste.

I was a 1 ranker for 2 consecutive years and 2+ in my first year.

I am since trying to get back. The HR there sucks. Once out of the firm they dont care about the ex-employee.

Oh and the company is IBM.

Last edited by Spitfire : 6th March 2009 at 11:51.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:52   #42
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Tata companies (i've audited a few of them - the flagship ones) are very very ethical in their dealings. I really do not know how TCS has the impression of being a bully in the market. Well, in yesterday's Mumbai mirror there was an article of how TATAs (through the Taj Group charities/Bombay House Charities) gave a good part of 40 lakhs towards treatment of a victim of the 26/11 attack at the Taj.

Bond or No bond, slavery was abolished in America (the earliest democracy in the world mandated by a constitution) much before India became a democratic republic.

Well, age has its drawbacks as well, a seasoned player can talk his/her way out of a sticky situation created by HR with a win win to both (obviously, one needs to enlighten the party who behaves like an bureaucrat)

Networking helps as well, the key is not to get too aggravated or emotional in dealing with HR. Just be firm and respectfully put across your point, the pyaar mohabbat way get done faster.

Cheers
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:01   #43
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Tata companies (i've audited a few of them - the flagship ones) are very very ethical in their dealings. I really do not know how TCS has the impression of being a bully in the market. Well, in yesterday's Mumbai mirror there was an article of how TATAs (through the Taj Group charities/Bombay House Charities) gave a good part of 40 lakhs towards treatment of a victim of the 26/11 attack at the Taj.
Yes you are right Tatas are ethical lot , As I stated in my story the problem lies with minions the so called HR manager / executives in each branch who is a guy / gal in his 20s and think him-self o be lord and master all others. These guys have no inkling to company ethos and culture and they relive their own frustrations.

Actually the engineers get job jumps and some of them even brag how much they are getting creating a envy and thus the bad blood , Escalation to head office is solution most of the times.
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:05   #44
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If you say No. They will send somebody else instead, give you a bad rating in the next evaluation - no salary improvement, no growth. You leave the company.
Not in my experience with TCS - if you don't want to go abroad, your supervisor will only try and find out why. Because if you don't want to go abroad, you are part of the minority. You either have plans to leave or other constraints hold you back in India.

The problem is with the perception that an "onsite" assignment is like taking an elevator to success while "offshore" assignments are like having to build your own staircase to growth and then climb it. While others at the top pour boiling oil and throw stones down at you .
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:13   #45
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Yes you are right Tatas are ethical lot , As I stated in my story the problem lies with minions the so called HR manager / executives in each branch who is a guy / gal in his 20s and think him-self o be lord and master all others. These guys have no inkling to company ethos and culture and they relive their own frustrations.
Those kind of people exist mostly everywhere, what goes around, comes around. Penance is not post departure, it is pre departure to the nether worlds.

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The problem is with the perception that an "onsite" assignment is like taking an elevator to success while "offshore" assignments are like having to build your own staircase to growth and then climb it. While others at the top pour boiling oil and throw stones down at you .
I hated an onsite, Donno why but it was never like a holiday call me weird, but i've travelled a lot outside never liked it without it being a holiday.

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Oh and the company is IBM.
I remember a case where an employee of IBM (first name Gaurav) was asked to pull down a blog against IIPM or resign, he resigned.

IBM thru its subsidiary rocked, fresher promoted in four weeks. Chamatkar/Ya ? The zenith of bad taste to the remainder of the promoted employee's colleagues.
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